Your Favorite Harness and Container System and Y

[riggermick 6]

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first off I don't think the harness design is all that smart. the main lift web kinks right above the laterals which ultimately will weaken the lift-web.

I've been hearing this statement quite a bit over the last couple of years for some reason. While MANY rigs on the market have a "kink" in the MLW, the only way it will weaken the MLW is if it is loaded in a fashion that harness/container systems don't get loaded. That "kink" will not be there when the jumper is under canopy. Rigs have been built this way for over 25 years, yet I've never heard of a MLW failing because of a "kink".

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the new floating laterals are nice but far away from being new. in fact the way the laterals are attached to the containers on the Infinity is not very durable. I have seen them starting to tear at the seam on several rigs now. that also happens on mirages though.

We have had prototypes in the field for over a year and over 1000 jumps on a couple of rigs, but we've never had any reports of a durability issue. If no one reports an issue, we can't fix it. The rigs with rigid stabilizers did sometimes have problems with the bottom corners of the backpad coming unstitched, but that has been fixed because people let us know.

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back in the day manufacturers used to sandwich the cutaway handles between the lift-web which caused some real hard chops with spinning mals. infinity moved the pillow to the inside of the lift-web. Rigging innovations has a sheath around the lift-web that hosts the handle so there is no load on the pocket. suddenly I see Infinitys with the handle sandwiched again.

Look closer at that pocket- the velcro is sewn on in a fashion so that it peels automatically no matter which direction the handle is pulled.

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some Infinitys I pack have type 7 front risers and type 8 rear risers on the reserve. some have type 7 for both.

The ones with type 8 rear risers are non-articualted harnesses- pretty standard procedure throughout the industry.

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the reserve system is fairly easy to pack, but you have to be aware of the fact that they use a kicker flap for the reserve PC and the AAD cutter sits below that flap. Airtech suggests for all manufacturers to place the cutter above the PC.

Airtec approved our Cypres installation before the Infinity went into production. We asked for the cutter to be placed on the kicker flap due to the metal top of our reserve pilot chute. They asked us to make some changes in order for them to approve the install, the changes were made, and the install was approved. You are right that it is more of a rigging issue than a design issue though- you should never be able to rock a reserve PC back and forth, and if you can see the edges of it under the flaps of the rig, there's probably a less than ideal situation there (i.e. loop too long, reserve too big for container, or too much bulk in the center).

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the main flap design is not bad but not revolutionary either. in fact it's very similar to what Sunpath has used for a long time now.

The angled tab is not what makes our pin cover special- it's simply a feature to help preserve the tab from rough packers that try to force the tab into place past the bottom flap grommet when the bottom flap was not pulled completely closed. What makes our pin cover special is as Slurp stated- the location of the closing loop and the construction of the center flap. If the closing loop is located on or near the reserve container, it will change the geometry of the tuck tab system depending on the length of the closing loop and the size of the parachute in the container. In order for a tuck tab system to work properly, several points need to be aligned properly, consistently, and that's what the Infinity does.

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the riser covers... oh boy now I am getting started. you said they are user friendly... I beg to differ. I believe you could still get a riser lock if you place your main riser under the first flap before you close it. the reason this doesn't happen is because the riser covers are cut very loosely.

This is simply not true either. In order for a riser cover to lock, the riser needs to pull from under the tuck tab pocket. If it is putting pressure on the underside of the pocket, it increases the bite the pocket has on the tab. With some rigs (esp. those with large pockets) this is a true concern since there isn't much to keep a riser from getting deep under the pocket in a situation such as having a shoulder low on deployment, so it's recommended to place the risers on top of the pocket. The design of the Infintiy secondary riser covers and reserve top flap (that also has the riser cover tuck tab pockets) directs the risers to the outside of the rig, where the risers pull on the covers themselves to open them. The "looseness" that you refer to is a required part of the system to prevent the tuck tabs from having too much pressure on them and getting a bend in them, rendering them all but useless.

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and yes.... THEY DO COME OPEN! my freefly partner has 3 Infinitys. on his newest one one of the riser covers is cut 1/4 inch loser than the other one. we do a side by side track off after our routine and I would say 80% of the time I look over and see his riser cover flapping in the wind. at our boogie we asked Kelly personally about it and he told me that was just manufacturing tolerance and there was no way it was more than 1/8 of an inch. I went and got my ruler out and measured just over 1/4 inch... he didn't really have an answer for that, not even offered to fix it or anything...

As I remember it, it was not a full 1/4", and I asked you to show me or send me some video of the riser cover opening, which I have yet to see four months later. As you may recall, I was quite surprised to hear about Dave having a problem with our riser covers opening before deployment, because we had never heard of it in the six years of manufacturing the currrent version. If I left you with the impression that I wouldn't fix it, I'm sorry. We always stand behind our products and make right what's wrong. But sometimes, without actually SEEING what's causing the problem, it's hard to FIX the problem. All I can really think is that it can't be that much of a problem if someone with three rigs doesn't feel it necessary to be without one for a week or so to fix the issue.

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I do believe that they have a lot of tolerance in their manufacturing lately but I also think that there is a design flaw in the riser cover pocket. look at the way RI is doing that... in my opinion a way better solution.

What kind of flaw is this? Is it a safety issue, or durability? I think an explanation is due since you've just announced to the world that we have a "flawed" design with no other description, and it's certainly never been brought to VSE's attention as far as I remember.

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back to my freefly partner... his first Infinity was a used container and he loved it. he then ordered a custom rig after a while and was measured by Kelly himself! the lift-web is way too long and the leg-pads are too. he jumped the rig anyway for a while. he then wanted a turn rig so he ordered another one. using the same measurements the rig now fits a lot better but the leg-pads are too short. he asked Kelly for new leg-pads and he sent them to him. you would think the manufacturer knows how the rig he ordered 6 months ago would look like. his leg pads are all black but the replacement ones are black with blue binding tape. he also mentioned the other rig being too big but no action was ever taken.

Often, it doesn't matter who takes the measurements, but accurate measurements are always the best place to start. There are still things to interpret and educated guesses to be made. Sometimes we don't get it right the first time, as is the case with everything ever built by man. If the harness is too big and the rig has already been assembled, we will resize the harness and repack the reserve for free if the job requires it, but that also requires the rig to be returned to us so we can do the work on it. If it's never returned to us to be fixed, it can only be assumed that the fit isn't that bad. Dave should be able to tell you that we have worked with him to keep him as happy as we can since we built a completely new rig for him after his second rig was made out of a new batch of cordura that had a different shade that he wasn't happy with. We have all order forms on file dating back to 1991, so I have no explanation for the legpads being taped in the wrong color.

I'm sorry if this was a bit long winded, but explanations often take longer than observations
MLKSKY: what year was your Infinity made?

Hey Kelly,

Sounds like someone has an axe to grind huh? Reading all of this gives me a feeling of deja'vu from when I was building the Reflex. If this guy doesn't come forward with more info on his claims then he doesn't deserve the courtisy of a reply. Looking at his profile the phrase "big fish small pond" comes to mind. I know from personal experience that a lot of riggers love the fact that they know more than the average skydiver and therefore feel rather smug about it.

What I always find amusing is the preported level of manufacturing knolwedge they like to spout without ever having been in the harness/ container business let alone in the design area of the feild.

I think you build a fine product, right up there with the "big guys", it's well thought out, clean, functional and well constructed. Keep up the good work!!



Mick.

[riggerrob 558]

Yeah!
Whatever riggermick said.

[hjumper33 0]

...back to the original question. Has it really taken this long for someone to say I jump a Javelin and absolutely love it? I was under the impression it was one of the more popular containers around. Mines a little older but I must say the new Odyssey I tried on was the most comfortable rig ive ever tried.

[Vectracide 0]

To each thier own is what it really comes down to. As for myself....I will probably jump Wings forever. The fit is exceptional. Comfort is better than the Mirage G4, but equivalent to the Jav. Odessy. The Wings containers have exceptional pin protections, as a cordura BOC that solves the problems of worn out spandex pouches that lead to prematures.

Don't look to others to convince you on what container is the best though. Do take riggers advice on which ones are freefly friendly. Wear as many different kinds as you can from people that are your size and make up your own mind.

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Controlled and Deliberate.....

[MLKSKY 0]

DOM--sometime in 1996-

I'm going to PM you with some ??'s about my rig b/c I am new to the sport and don't want to post stupid questions for the world to see .

[jojo0815 0]

I really owe everyone but especially Kelly an apology. this is a bad place to bring personal grudges to... especially if they are not even your own. I shouldn't have used this forum for a personal rant and realized that bad things only create bad things. my initial irritation was with one of the posters not with VSE. Kelly builds awesome rigs, my 2nd choice when it comes to containers. he comes before all the big boys in the business.
again... sorry for trying to make this a pissing contest. I think I am going to shut up now.

[KellyF 16]

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When did you buy the company and put the new Infinity rig design into production? People should realize it was different.

Concerning the "kink" issue: Doesn't the kink mean that there is little benefit of the hip ring junction instead of a std/no hip ring rig? I'm speaking of benefit in terms of the rig not being too stiff/limiting movement...

VSE was started in 1998, and full production on the current model Infinity started in 1999. There were some prototypes and sponsor rigs built in '98 though, so the easiest way to tell is by the serial number. All the current models have a serial number over 6000.

As far as the "kink" issue, the initial idea behind that style of articualted harness was more for leg movement than upper body movement. Sandy Reid (as I understand it) was working with very flexable freestylists that took advantage of the upper body flexability that is provided when the main lift web and lateral strap are connected via a ring when he developed the Flexon in the early '90s.

Mick and Rob: thanks for the support
JoJo: Your post really did catch me off guard. I was wondering if your embroidery was coming undone If you or Dave have any questions or concerns, always feel free to give me a call or shoot me an email- [email protected] and we'll do what we can to make things right

VSE on Facebook

[KNewman 0]

I have an Infinity, and love it. The riser covers are bomber and have never opened prematurely on my rig. I bought mine used, and it fits me perfectly, it is so much better than the rental stuff I was using before. I get many compliments on the rig and how good it looks. (I say thanks but I didn't get it because it looks good, I got it because it works great !!!) If I ever need to get another harness, it will be an Infinity. (This thing is built like a tank and I don't think I will need to replace it anytime soon) All I can say is thanks Kelly, you have a great product and a loyal customer!!

Kevin

Blue Skies and Stand-up Landings!!!!!!

[blakeman 0]

I'm curious about the Infinity issues myself: having managed two dropzones that used Infinities exclusively for their student and rental operations, I wasn't aware of any significant problems. Having put a few thousand jumps (personally) on my two infinities, I just received my third one and I cannot possibly be happier with it.

As for the customer service, I find it peerless. I have been skydiving professionally since the mid-90's, and I can tell you that skydiving companies are extremely hard-pressed to deliver the customer service that Americans expect in the whuffo world. Without exception, Kelly and his people are the only skydiving-industry personnel I have never had a problem with.

If you are considering a rig purchase, you would not regret doing business with those guys at VSE. Having sent them tens and tens of thousands of dollars, I don't regret a single penny.

[darkseed 0]

Sucks my name some how got drug into this whole thing on here.

My feelings and my experiences with VSE should be brought up by me and me only! And I would have never addressed them on here. This is exactly why I have such limited participation on this site to begin with. It’s like a bunch a ranting school girl on this site. Jojo is like family and an exellent rigger I think he just
got obducted by aliens the night he posted this or somthing...maybe they forgot to remove the anal probe..lol Jk I love ya bro. I will not get into all the specifics as Jojo and Kelly did earlier. I will only say VSE infinity rigs and Kelly are top notch. Anyone reading this whole thread thinking about getting an Infinity rig should please disregard all that has been posted. Kelly after speaking with you today I hope you know where I stand on all of this. I fly 3 Infinity rigs and will continue to for a reason. They ARE the best!

Thank you again for all your help.

Blue Skies

Dave

I became better in this sport when I learned to shut my mouth and keep my eyes and ears open.

[NelKel 0]

I think the difference is the ..V3 and the wings have only two rings and the Javelin and the mirage have 4. So...I don't think you can do a fair comparison between the harness designes. (apple to an orange)I had a J2 (4 rings) and now a W-7 (2 rings) both custom made for me. The Wings is hands down the more comfortable of the two. However I think all the manufactures put out very well built gear. I just feel that thoes extra rings on the chest are usless and actually take away from the fit, and comfort, also look at where Sunrise rigging places the hip rings. the location id different that the RWS V3 position of the hip rings. thats all.

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Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[Vectracide 0]

I couldn't agree more. The 4 ring system is just a gimmick. Another way to charge more for something that doesn't add anything to comfort or performance of the harness. On top of doing nothing, its another spot of wear that you have to worry about. Another place the harness could possibly fail on a devastating opening. Just look at what happened to the harness on the fatality in the Ukraine. Not that these containers are similar in any way, but the stitching blew apart none the less. The less stitching to my main lift web, the better.....

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Controlled and Deliberate.....

[mjosparky 3]

You crack me up. Do you have and any experience or knowledge in harness design or manufacturing?

Any ring used in a harness is rated at 2500 pounds. It is almost always the weak link. Type VII webbing = 6000 pounds, Type VIII webbing = 4000 pounds.

In most cases where stitching is used, less means weaker joint efficiency. On a 3 inch 4-point pattern.

More - 6 x 40 x 27 = 6480 pounds

Less – 5 x 40 x 27 = 5400 pounds

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mcezmac 0]

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You crack me up. Do you have and any experience or knowledge in harness design or manufacturing?

Any ring used in a harness is rated at 2500 pounds. It is almost always the weak link. Type VII webbing = 6000 pounds, Type VIII webbing = 4000 pounds.

In most cases where stitching is used, less means weaker joint efficiency. On a 3 inch 4-point pattern.

More - 6 x 40 x 27 = 6480 pounds

Less – 5 x 40 x 27 = 5400 pounds

Where could someone learn more about this info? I would like to know more about why and how some of these things are designed.

[mjosparky 3]

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Where could someone learn more about this info? I would like to know more about why and how some of these things are designed.

Start with PPM Vol. I & II.

Then spend the rest of your jumping career reading everything you can get your hands on about parachutes and gear, listen to the idle ramblings of those that came before you, ask questions and use a little common sense.

Remember that no one has all the answers but the good ones to learn from know how to find the answers.

PM me an email address and I will send you a couple of thing to read through. The files are too big to attach.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Vectracide 0]

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You crack me up. Do you have and any experience or knowledge in harness design or manufacturing?

Any ring used in a harness is rated at 2500 pounds. It is almost always the weak link. Type VII webbing = 6000 pounds, Type VIII webbing = 4000 pounds.

In most cases where stitching is used, less means weaker joint efficiency. On a 3 inch 4-point pattern.

More - 6 x 40 x 27 = 6480 pounds

Less – 5 x 40 x 27 = 5400 pounds

I'm so glad that I could make you laugh......

No disrespect intended...but your condescending attitude is appaling.

You can quote all the facts, pounds per sqaure inch, blah blah blah......you only further made my point by stating that the ring is almost always the weak link......

What will never change is....shit happens, and when I make my decisions, they are MY decisions, you don't necessarily have to agree with them. The proof is in the pics.......webbing can tear....stitching can blow.....

http://www.skycentre.net/index.php?showtopic=2060

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Controlled and Deliberate.....

[mjosparky 3]

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No disrespect intended...but your condescending attitude is appaling..

More so then your “condescending” appraisal of container manufacturing in general?

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You can quote all the facts, pounds per sqaure inch, blah blah blah.
and when I make my decisions, they are MY decisions, you don't necessarily have to agree with them.

You are right I don’t have to agree with them. But if you are going to hold them out as advise to other jumpers you should at least know the facts.

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The proof is in the pics.......webbing can tear....stitching can blow.....

Again you are right, webbing can tear and stitching can blow. But once again lets throw in some facts. We were discussing established gear manufactures in the US. You state the 4-ring system is just a gimmick, and that manufactures charge for things that do nothing. Can you explain why you feel that way? I know, again with the facts.

The harness/container in the pictures, do you know where it was manufactured and under what controls it was built? Do you know why it came apart? You are taking an unknown brush and trying to paint all containers with it. Oh, except for the one you jump.

If I appeared to be “condescending” it is because I am tired of people offering advise on things they know nothing about. Your opinions and your decisions are just that yours. And that is fine, just don’t try to pass them off as anything more than that.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[teason 0]

Why do you dislike stitching?

Are you commenting more on the simplicity of design or the unreliability of stitching?

The incident in the Ukraine is out of context here and has no bearing on the joint efficiency of a proper 4 point or the reliability of TSO'd design.

(Altough I do agree that there is a huge amount of Voodoo involved in apealing to the masses in the sport market. It doesn't have to work, the market just has to think it works. Coming soon: 6 ring articulation!)

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[hookitt 0]

Actually, the design of the rig that blew apart is nothing like a Javelin/Vector/Infinity/Mirage/Wings/Talon/ and others with 2, 4, or 6 rings. (fixed harness, Articulated lower or fully articulated)

Since I don't have the blue prints of the rig that's shown in the pictures I can't tell you the exact method the top junction is created but I'm nearly certain I do know how it was made. It's definitely not like either rig mentioned.

Additionally, the ring held fine so it was not the weak link on that particular harness. On that rig, it appears that the rear reserve risers is a separate piece of type 8. The top junction blew apart for reasons unknown to me (though I have a fairly educated suspicion). On other rigs, the rear riser is either a part of the main lift web, or it is one piece from the front riser around either the chest ring, or the hip ring back up to the rear riser.

Rigs seldom blow apart without inferior parts construction methods or workmanship. (Insert long list here to include thread, tension, timing, dull needles, out of position carriages and more).

Anyway, the rings held, it's the thread that came apart. Since the thread came apart, the lack of redundancy in the design of the harness allowed the rear riser to separate.
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On that note, I'm a big fan of the Infinity. It is rigger friendly, both main and reserve, the well designed and quite simple riser covers are exemplary. Excellent main and reserve pin protection. Good riser inserts design. It’s comfortable and light. I’m sure there’s more.

I was offered a nearly free rig from another manufacturer but instead chose to purchase the Infinity. After 13 ½ years of rigging and 16 years in sports that include parachutes, the rig just makes sense.

Oh yeah, they also came up with a nifty method of attaching the lower junction to the back pad for tiny users. It allows a D type reserve handle to fit into a small lift web. The cut in laterals are also the best I’ve seen.

Hope that helps

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[skydiverek 56]

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You crack me up. Do you have and any experience or knowledge in harness design or manufacturing?

Any ring used in a harness is rated at 2500 pounds. It is almost always the weak link. Type VII webbing = 6000 pounds, Type VIII webbing = 4000 pounds.

In most cases where stitching is used, less means weaker joint efficiency. On a 3 inch 4-point pattern.

More - 6 x 40 x 27 = 6480 pounds

Less – 5 x 40 x 27 = 5400 pounds

And the leg strap adapters are ony ratetd at 500 lbs each, right?

[rigger_john 0]

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And the leg strap adapters are ony ratetd at 500 lbs each, right?

Wrong, they are rated at a minimum of 2500 lbs, maybe you are thinking of the 70101 chest strap adapter which is rated at 500 lbs and is stamped not forged.

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Nullius in Verba

[Vectracide 0]

I did not say that I "disliked" stitching. My stance on the matter, is if there is a weak point in a system, then try to limit how many there are. IE: If a piece of webbing has only 1 stitching point, then there is only one weak point if not done correctly. But if the system is designed with more than one piece of webbing and several stich joints, then there are several potential "weak" points. Not that the joint is weak per say, but it does not bear the same level of strength as a contiguous piece of webbing. As Mojo stated, add a ring in there and then you have an even weaker part of the whole mix.

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Controlled and Deliberate.....

[Vectracide 0]

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You are taking an unknown brush and trying to paint all containers with it. Oh, except for the one you jump.

I never said, or even eluded to this. Please do not put words in my mouth.


If I appeared to be “condescending” it is because I am tired of people offering advise on things they know nothing about. Your opinions and your decisions are just that yours. And that is fine, just don’t try to pass them off as anything more than that.

Well...no one is making you read posts here. Secondly, you only assume I know nothing about what I am talking about, but in the process, you only further proved my point that a ring is the weakest part of a system. Thirdly, the Wings with 2 hip rings fits and articulates just as good, if not better than the Odessy and G4's I have jumped. Both rigs were for guys my exact size and weight. So...I do not see the need for the extra rings, unless the system NEEDS them to do the job that other containers accomplish with just 2 rings. But then again, these are just my OPINIONS, and you can twist them however you want, but dont expect a reply.....I'm done with this thread as it has become a pissing match. Hey....there's a surprise....a DZ.com thread becoming railroaded...who'd a thought.

Out.

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Controlled and Deliberate.....

[kingbunky 3]

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<--snip-->
back to my freefly partner... his first Infinity was a used container and he loved it. he then ordered a custom rig after a while and was measured by Kelly himself! the lift-web is way too long and the leg-pads are too. he jumped the rig anyway for a while. he then wanted a turn rig so he ordered another one. using the same measurements the rig now fits a lot better but the leg-pads are too short. he asked Kelly for new leg-pads and he sent them to him. you would think the manufacturer knows how the rig he ordered 6 months ago would look like. his leg pads are all black but the replacement ones are black with blue binding tape. he also mentioned the other rig being too big but no action was ever taken.
<--snip-->

to counter this 'lack of action' comment, here's my story. i ordered a new infinity a couple of years ago. there were no gear dealers around to do the measurements for me, so my wife and i had at it with the guide on the vse website. the rig showed up as promised, and i loved it. then i saw a picture of myself under canopy, with the chest strap nearly at my throat. i put the rig on and sent a few pictures back to tress at vsea so see if the fit was right. it wasn't. i screwed up the measurements. i picked the point at the top of my hip instead of the hip joint, so my main lift webs were too long. i had a non-jumping vacation coming up, so i sent the rig back. the harness was resized, free of charge, even though it was my fault.

can't ask for better service or a better product, imho, and i wouldn't hesitate to order another one.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[mjosparky 3]

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Well...no one is making you read posts here. Secondly, you only assume I know nothing about what I am talking about, but in the process, you only further proved my point that a ring is the weakest part of a system. Thirdly, the Wings with 2 hip rings fits and articulates just as good, if not better than the Odessy and G4's I have jumped. Both rigs were for guys my exact size and weight. So...I do not see the need for the extra rings, unless the system NEEDS them to do the job that other containers accomplish with just 2 rings. But then again, these are just my OPINIONS, and you can twist them however you want, but dont expect a reply.....I'm done with this thread as it has become a pissing match. Hey....there's a surprise....a DZ.com thread becoming railroaded...who'd a thought.

Out.

It was nice talking with you, stay safe now.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals