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bigway

Need help with a big stuent looking for gear

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I go a customer who is 6'9 and he weighs 260 pounds.
HE has about 30 jumps or something, it may be a bit more as he was up to the level of his first 4 way today.
The guy is not a fat bloke, he is just built like a brick shithouse and as tall as my house.

HE is jumping a 270 student main at the moment, and with a bit of wind, he comes flying in on it. Fast landings.

Anyway, It has ended up after his CI who is verycapable, has decided he needs a PD 281 Reserve with a 260 main.

So that is a huge reserve but it is the only one that is TSO'd for him, so his CI has found anyway.

This means it would go in a V375 Vector 3.

Now here is my problem, the guy makes a good living, he loves the sport and has very quickly fitted into the dropzone. he is one of those guys who go from student to best mates with the owner. You just know he is going to be at the dz everyday it is open doing half a dozen jumps and adopting the dropzone life.

So his Vector 3 that he is deadset on, is going to take 22+ weeks to be built. It is 30 degrees Celsius over here at the moment and summer is about to arrive. So over the next 22 weeks he will do at least 120 jumps, more like 150 jumps.

By the time his 287 reserve arrives and his 260 main canopy, I am affraid that the main canopy and the reserve will be too big for him. As if he has outgrown that. I look at the guy and he looks like he will find his perfect canopy at the size of a 220. Not yet of course, but within 200 jumps? Probably.

However, I am not an instructor, I sell gear and I know my place. I know when my knowledge are personal opinion and should not be reflected on to the student.

I spoke to his CI and she understands my concern as she was not aware the rig would take 22 weeks to be built.


Does anyone have any ideas? Does anyone know of a reserve that is TSO'd for him that is not this massive?
Of course, the idea would be to wait for an optimum of this size so he can get it into a container that will hold a 220 even if he has to jump a 260 for a while, but at least he is not throwing money away by getting a super sized rig and not being able to get much life out of it as he will get to a 220 main sooner or later.

What other reserves could we look at, either a bit smaller that he could use or that pack alot smaller that he could use.

I want this guy to get the best value for money in his rig, i.e. a rig that will last him more than a couple of hundred jumps, a rig that he will want to jump in 200 jumps time.


Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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This doesn't help your situation but why do you assume he will need to or want to downsize in a 100 or 200 jumps? I know a lot of people do downsize but it's not necessary to continue to have fun.

You mentioned his landings are "with a bit of wind, he comes flying in on it. Fast landings". Does he need to or want to go faster?

Have you talked to him about your concerns?

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There production time is shorter. he is dead set on the Vector 3, I had said to his CI that the smart would be an option as I have been down a smiliar road before, but for some reason the smart was turned down or we did not finish that part of the conversation. Thanks for reminding me.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Yes, I spent the day talking with him, his wife and his CI and instructors.
I do not assume anything.
I speak to my customers and I let them speak to me, I now find myself in a interesting challenge, not to find him something he can downsize to, and not even because he is 100% sure he will downsize. The way I look at it, is if one of my customers is going to spend $7000+ on a rig, then they should know their options and what it means an the financial value of the purchase etc.
It is also a concern to me that a person is buying their first rig brand new through myself and that we dont know where he will be in 22 weeks as maybe he is ready for something a bit smaller, maybe he is not, but at least I can give him an informed answer as to what comes next and financially viable this purchase would be as it is not going to be an easy rig to sell and that would suck for him if he pays $7000 and only gets 200 jumps on it before he wants or needs something smaller.


So, in a way you are right, nobody knows what or where he will be at in 150 jumps, but this is why I am looking at what comes next for him, just so he knows and because I can not in good concious just say to him...."ok, yeah mate I will see you that, thanks for the cash, see you later'.

Thank you for your concerns of course but yes, I talk to all my customers.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Consider aerodyne. their smart reserve 250 appears to be tso'ed to 300lbs. If I remember correctly their ICON harness is tso'ed to 300 too. Maybe their production time is shorter.



Thanks for your input. You just opened up a world of possibilities.
His CI and Z owner and himself all asked me to look into what we coul do. No you say the Smart is TSO'd to 300lbs, this opens up half a dozen different rigs that may be suitable and give him downsize options, so he could get a Safire 249 and then get down to a 229 safire 2, and then after he is done with that, he can get to a Pilot 210 if he wante to. So that might do him 700+ jumps, then he can go HP and put a Crossfire 239 in it.

Something like this means he has choices and options as he progresses and that leaves me comfortable knowing that he is not spending $7000 on a single size container really.

So he can choose from the V380 no instead of just the V375 and he coul even try the V360-2 or just maybe the V358.

Anyway, thanks for your input, it opened my eyes and I am sure this will help my customer get a rig that could last him a lifetime.

I look at this guy and see that he is the type who will find his sweet spot in time to come on a 220. So with a rig letting him downsize to that over the years is a good investment in my opiniopn. Im no saying he has to get to that size, im just saying he now has options.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Non-issue. I'm sure there is at least one manufacturer out there who can get a rig to him before winter hits down there. He can either have a rig before it gets cold there or he can have a Vector 3. His choice.

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a rig that will last him more than a couple of hundred jumps, a rig that he will want to jump in 200 jumps time.



Why wouldn't he want to jump the same rig? Can he not go down at least one main size - if not two - in the same rig? Is it required that someone downsize both main and reserve? Is it not a good idea to load a reserve within TSO specs? Will the TSO specs change because he has 200 jumps?

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The point was that in order to get the PD reserve that was the only one the CI thought was TSO'd for his weight (PD 281) was that he had to get a PD 281 reserve. They dont want him on a reserve this size and they thought that was the only reserve he could jump.

Adding more to the issue, it seems it was not researched enough, because they were under the impression that to have a 281 reserve meant they could only get a container that only took a 260 main canopy.

With a bit more research it seems he has more options.

Now with a Smart 250 being TSO'd , this means he has alot more options to get something they would rather see him on.
It also gives him alot more downsize (progression) options than the container they thought he had to have.

Also, they were telling me he could only get the V358. The V358 starting with a 260 main. So no, in this size container, there is no room for downsize.

I listened to these guys and it just seems they had not looked at all options possible or not worked out the best choice. This is the container that was recommended to the CI for this jumper. Obviously somewhere there was some miscommunication.

As far as a different container, as I said, the guy is deadset on a vector 3 and that is his choice.

P.S. Winter is 6-7 months away and winter down here is very jumpable.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Thank you all, problem is solved. I posted a question here because I knew there was something missing. It did not sound right to me that he had to have a bigger rig than they wanted him to have. They thought he was forced to buy a PD 281.

With the reminder that the smart 250 is Tso'd to 300lbs, that changes everything and gives us all alot more to work with now.

All I was looking for was more to work with as I was asked to see if we could find a smaller reserve that he was able to use.

SO I came here to the forums, posted a question, someone pointed out the obvious and problem solved.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Thanks, but it is not an option.
He is 260lbs without gear and clothing, shoes etc.
So with a rig of this size that would weigh about 20 LBS plus clothing, helmet, shoes, altis etc it would be cutting it a bit too fine.

Anyway, as I said, it is all sorted now, just waiting to hear back from the CI as to what I should order.

Thanks for your input.

Life would just be so much easier if these optimums were made available. So many customers waiting for them.

The one good thing about the 22 wee wait for my UPT customers though means we cahve about 17 weeks before we need to put the order in and confirm it, so maybe the optimum will become available in that time.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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Thank you all, problem is solved. I posted a question here because I knew there was something missing. It did not sound right to me that he had to have a bigger rig than they wanted him to have. They thought he was forced to buy a PD 281.

With the reminder that the smart 250 is Tso'd to 300lbs, that changes everything and gives us all alot more to work with now.

All I was looking for was more to work with as I was asked to see if we could find a smaller reserve that he was able to use.

SO I came here to the forums, posted a question, someone pointed out the obvious and problem solved.



This isn't only a problem for big guys, anyone who is wants to maintain a conservative reserve loading, with a main loaded up a bit has the container issue. I have a V358 with a PD218 reserve. My main is an Icarus Crossfire 159. It does not slop around in the container, I refer to it as "easy pack'n!"

Long-story-short, the manufactures do not build rigs for "mismatched" canopies. My thought on this guy's first main would be to go with a PD Student canopy. It'll be very easy to find a DZ to purchase a slightly used 260 (or 280) student main! And, they fly really nice, turn relatively fast especially considering the loading, and have a powerful flair. I weigh 230 geared up, and was really impressed with how a PD260 student preformed with me under it.

Martin Myrtle
DZO Air Capital Drop Zone
6'8" 210 lbs (I have to watch my calories to keep the weight there. It's a tandem loading issue.)

Edit to add: I weigh in the 230 range geared up with sport gear.

I'll buy a used PD 260 Student main, I need another. Prefer the standard color scheme, which is also discounted (maybe just to DZs and Schools), last I knew anyway, check with your dealer.
http://www.performancedesigns.com/store_files/colorpic.asp?c_pattern=CP9-0045
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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This isn't only a problem for big guys, anyone who is wants to maintain a conservative reserve loading, with a main loaded up a bit has the container issue. I have a V358 with a PD218 reserve. My main is an Icarus Crossfire 159. It does not slop around in the container, I refer to it as "easy pack'n!"

Long-story-short, the manufactures do not build rigs for "mismatched" canopies.



Sure they do. Mirage and Sunrise offer a number of stock combinations with a larger reserve container. Flite Line used to sell Reflexes with reserve containers 3-4 sizes larger, like an R300 for a 150 reserve and 97 main. At one point I talked to Sunrise and they said they'd build a Wings in any combination but "won't promise it'll look good". Jump Shack will build any combination.

Sun Path and UPT don't want our money but there are other options.

FWIW, I have a PD143 and Samurai 105.

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>Long-story-short, the manufactures do not build rigs for "mismatched" canopies.

A few do. Jump Shack is pretty good about mixing and matching sizes. I have a Mirage that is designed to hold a PD143 and a Crossfire 109. But as you mention, they are not nearly as easy to find as the standard "190 main/190 reserve" combinations.

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This isn't only a problem for big guys, anyone who is wants to maintain a conservative reserve loading, with a main loaded up a bit has the container issue. I have a V358 with a PD218 reserve. My main is an Icarus Crossfire 159. It does not slop around in the container, I refer to it as "easy pack'n!"

Long-story-short, the manufactures do not build rigs for "mismatched" canopies.



Sure they do. Mirage and Sunrise offer a number of stock combinations with a larger reserve container. Flite Line used to sell Reflexes with reserve containers 3-4 sizes larger, like an R300 for a 150 reserve and 97 main. At one point I talked to Sunrise and they said they'd build a Wings in any combination but "won't promise it'll look good". Jump Shack will build any combination.

Sun Path and UPT don't want our money but there are other options.

FWIW, I have a PD143 and Samurai 105.



I stand corrected. I have seen rigs with what looks like a small main container "stuck" below a large reserve. I also think that people are overly hung up on having the smallest possible rig, and a "easy packing" main.
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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