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karlm

Taking a Removable Slider to Terminal?

By karlm, in Gear and Rigging

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Peej    0

Peej
I plan on doing it as soon as i move over to a full elliptical, either Katana or Huricane.

As you probably know Chris B and Rob K are doing it on every jump. I know Rob has been spanked once but afaik he didn't attach the slider properly and paid the price.

There were varying opinions in the search results i found but for the record here is Chuck Blue's (aka SkyMonkeyONE) opinion as expressed in this post:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1652714;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

"I jump my Joe Bennet-built removeable slider on every single jump on my Velo without fear of being spanked. I find the incredible ease of getting it off in one pull (and out of the way) totally worth the extra MINUTE it takes me to re-rig it on the ground. I jump it from full altitude and at terminal velocity on almost every single skydive in my duties as an AFFI and tandem vidiot.

No fucking with slider stowage, no noise at all under canopy, nothing at all blocking my view around me as I descend into the pattern and setup for my turn. Totally worth the small re-rigging hassle in my opinion.

Likewise, if you are going "full" RDS, then it's really the only smart way to go. I tried "partial" RDS (lines attached to rear of non-removeable slider by means of RSL shackle) and had two instances where I could not release the system; not acceptable. It takes me less than five minutes to change from "removeable slider/deployment system still on top" to "full RDS". I keep my Vectran RDS lines folded neatly in my inside mudflap on my Wings W1-2 EXT.

Chuck"

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

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Vectracide    0

Vectracide
Karlm,

I jumped a Jeff Bell RDS system, Velocity Air Sports, all this weekend. I put around 10 terminal jumps on it. I am jumping a Katana 107 loaded just under 1.8. It changed openings just a little as far as speed goes....slightly faster. But headings changed for the better. I no longer get the last second heading change at full inflation. I would say that the only thing that you really have to pay attention to is your deployment alititude. Dump higher than you normally would as it takes some time to stow all that stuff. I was only doing 2-3 ways and one on one coach jumps, so there was not much traffic in the air with me. I felt comfortable with that, but it would not be my first choice on zoo loads or big ways,(full system that is). Just the slider, no problem. In fact, I will more than likely not jump a standard slider ever again, as it frees up the risers so much, gives you great camera range (not hitting helmet and stuff). I absolutely love it.

------------------------------

Controlled and Deliberate.....

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masterrigger1    2

masterrigger1
Quote


What are the thoughts on taking a removable slider (not a RDS system) to terminal on a regular basis?



Actually, I never though I would be saying this, but....

1. Joe and I both have sold sliders to people who are not into competitive swooping, but use them working and shooting video.

2. I thought the "full" system was a little overboard for some of these people.

I invisioned they would become sloppy packers and start having a rash of problems.

But it seems that they pack very carefully and have had no problems that I know of thus far, using it as a everyday system.


Feel free to contact either of us if you have further questions.


Thanks,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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SkymonkeyONE    3

SkymonkeyONE
Quote

What are the thoughts on taking a removable slider (not a RDS system) to terminal on a regular basis?



I take mine to terminal on almost every single jump. I use that rig for AFF, video, and everything else other than tandems and wingsuit jumps. No problems at all. I pull my slider off on every jump.

Chuck

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karlm    0

karlm
Thanks for all the replies and head-up on this. Clears up so concerns I have had about them.

We have a few jumpers here using the removable slider system, mostly on sub100 canopies.

Better never to have met you in my dream than to wake and reach for hands that are not there.

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Tonto    1

Tonto
Hi Karl,

Coming from a background (Long, long ago..) of competitive cycling, where arguments over taping the underside of saddles, changing from alloy to steel for time trials due to reduced frontal areas, to shave or not to shave legs, pro's and cons of ankling in the strength vs drag debate etc rage on and on, I often consider it laughable how some people focus on only some aspects of the problem.

If a jumper is removing the slider PURELY to lower parasitic drag - then I wonder why the baggy sweat tops and long shorts and flapping shoelaces are ignored. Why are we not dressing like speed skaters, and placing little fairings over our legstrap hardware?

While removable sliders have several other benefits, as mentioned by several people in this thread, if the goal is to reduce drag - a far more complete aproach needs to be taken. We're not yet at the point where a race like the Tour De France - over 1000's of miles, is won by a second. Maximum distances travelled at different swoop competitions sometimes differ by 100ft or more. What the pilot does has far, far more consequence than what they are wearing or what they have done to their slider.

I see the same people who say "It's not the arrow - it's the Indian." to just about everyone, spending a lot of time fletching their arrows.

I find the entire thing quite bizarre.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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mjosparky    3

mjosparky
Quote

If a jumper is removing the slider PURELY to lower parasitic drag - then I wonder why the baggy sweat tops and long shorts and flapping shoelaces are ignored. Why are we not dressing like speed skaters, and placing little fairings over our legstrap hardware?



Hey T,

I agree, good swooping has more to do with good technique then with gadgets.:)
While the thin lines, removable slider and sewn over risers may in fact increase the canopy speed I doubt that most jumpers have access to the equipment necessary to measure the difference.
:P
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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masterrigger1    2

masterrigger1
T,
I guess one needs to ask the top ten from the PST this weekend if they would have wanted to compete with large lines and non-removable sliders.

Then ask them if they thought they would have placed where they did if they had the above dis-advantages.

They all had 340 lb. Technora and RDS systems as far as I remember.

I attended the meet this weekend for some R&D for a new project and general PR stuff.

From that I observed quite a lot and made a lot of notes.
The one big thing that stood out was you needed thin lines and a RDS system to win the Speed and Distance events without any question.


Cheers,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Tonto    1

Tonto
Quote


The one big thing that stood out was you needed thin lines and a RDS system to win the Speed and Distance events without any question.



We'll never know that until 2 identical clones can swoop the same course a few seconds apart with no wake turbulence and absolutely identical input, one with "regular" set-up and one with "everything" setup - and we measure the difference.

I agree that in theory, every single change to reduce drag helps, but whether or not that drag is enough to make a difference other than in one's own mind? That's an endless debate.

If you're going to streamline - you can't stop at the cool bits.

It doesn't make sense.

t
It's the year of the Pig.

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masterrigger1    2

masterrigger1
T,
I guess one has to jump a canopy a few times with the advantages and then jump a standard canopy to understand and feel the differences.

TJ was jumping a Vectran lined canopy in Freestyle after he had issues with his Primary canopy(Technora Lined).
He had a gig for not making it out of the water. That gig cost him 1st place.
IMHO he would have made it across no problem with his primary canopy.

As far as the clothing issue; we are starting to see cycling clothing appear already.


Cheers,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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pilotdave    0

pilotdave
Quote

I guess one needs to ask the top ten from the PST...



The top 10 are the exception. They didn't get to be in the top 10 by using removable sliders. I can understand it for them... but I can't understand why just about anyone else would want one.

I've never seen one up close... don't know anything about them. But if removable sliders become popular for weekend jumpers to add a foot to their swoops, I think it'd just be a matter of time before someone gets killed by forgetting to put the slider back on and taking it to terminal. I've heard of jumpers forgetting to uncollapse a slider and that's right in front of their face. Out of sight, out of mind.

Would a swoop competition be any less exciting if everyone had fat lines, sliders, and pilot chutes trailing behind? Might not set any world records, but would it change the results? (Not suggesting we should try to turn back the clock on technology. Just saying this stuff might not be the best idea for MOST swoopers.)

Dave

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masterrigger1    2

masterrigger1
Quote


The top 10 are the exception.



Not really!
The top ten were not very far ahead of the rest of the field.

Take Hans Paulsen for Instance....
Won Speed...was basically in the top two.... had a couple of gigs and finished way down the ladder.

The same went for SuperStu....

Quote


I've never seen one up close... don't know anything about them.



Exactly what I was trying to convey!
The mods that we do have to be experienced before someone really knows what it is all about and can make an honest opinion about it.

Again , I will use Hans for an example.

He used to have an older canopy with our lines on it.
He got a new one and it had the 16 carrier Vectran that PD uses (thick).
He absolutely did not want to go to the comp without the smaller lines, basically stating that it flew like baloney with the bigger lines on it.

So, about a week before the comp we relined it and he was happy again.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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marks    0

marks
Quote

Quote


The one big thing that stood out was you needed thin lines and a RDS system to win the Speed and Distance events without any question.



We'll never know that until 2 identical clones can swoop the same course a few seconds apart with no wake turbulence and absolutely identical input, one with "regular" set-up and one with "everything" setup - and we measure the difference.

I agree that in theory, every single change to reduce drag helps, but whether or not that drag is enough to make a difference other than in one's own mind? That's an endless debate.

If you're going to streamline - you can't stop at the cool bits.

It doesn't make sense.

t



I cant tell you it added about 100 ft to my swoops when measuring distance. it didnt seem to help as much with speed, but I did notice the canopy would hold its speed ALOT longer with thinner lines. they make a HUGE difference.

as for the removable slider, It is just easier to remove the whole slider/bag and pilot chute all at once rather than remove the bag and pilot chute from the slider than stow it//

that being said, having a removable slider with the bag still on top of the canopy is a large advantage when it comes to being able to see.

I agree with the tight clothes and shaving, I saw a couple of guys shaved.:D at the last meet. and there are quite a few with the tight tops as well.

I however, still have my camera helmet on which has this huge box on the side that creates drag.:ph34r:

I will be getting another helmet soon, and one of those tight shirts. but I won't shave. Im not that desperate.

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marks    0

marks
Quote

Cessna,
Hmmmm........

Not now, but you guys will see it at the next comp for sure.
TJ, Joe Bennett, and myself will be the first to have it installed in aout 2 1/2 weeks. So look around for it.

BS,
MEL



you know my velo will be there for a lineset next week if you ever send me you address again.:D so maybee you could talk with me about this and we will install it on mine also.:)

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Peej    0

Peej
Quote

that being said, having a removable slider with the bag still on top of the canopy is a large advantage when it comes to being able to see.



That's one of the main reasons i'll be adding one to my main.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

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