IT consultants-Do you use your own laptop for work?

[marcandalysse 0]

This is not addressed to independent contractors for hire on individual project contracts.

I've been talking to a company about a full time consultant position, 100% travel to their client sites. They don't provide a company laptop. I would have to buy one powerful enough to use their apps and databases etc.

I don't like the idea of being responsible for company and client documents, software, emails etc on a personally owned computer. I don't even know if that is legal. My past jobs always gave me a company laptop.

Is this unusual? What are your thoughts?

Marc

[AggieDave 6]

The civil liability in regards to having client's documents on your computer...well, you'll have to talk to a lawyer that specializes in corporate law.

BUT

Think about the tax write off! You could buy the laptop you've always wanted. The straight hard core desktop replacement that you wanted, but then the tiny super portable system for travel. Then the iPhone for conferencing...all a nice fat write off.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[happythoughts 0]

Actually, at the last place I was at, they had an incident.
An employee sold a bunch of data.

They made it a rule that no one can have company data on their laptop because it can leave the company site.
(One of the idiot rules made by people who have little understanding of the myriad file transfer tools. )

Anyway, the rule applied to employees as well.

If your company wants you to perform that function, they should provide you with a company laptop.

[normiss 643]

Always have used the company tool for the job.
It's their data, their networks, their laptop.
Cell phone most of the time, company car on occasion as well. They are tools to do their job.

[tweak 0]

I worked for BellSouth as a consultant (not independent or even 1099 for that matter) for many years. They've always provided laptops for even consultants. Especially when proprietary/confidential data or code was involved (which it almost 100% of the time).

I would expect pretty much any client to provide that hardware unless, as you mentioned above, you were an independent contractor working a specialized position where you weren't using their applications or needing to keep a lot of their stuff on your laptop.

In fact, I'd consider it somewhat of a security concern to have anything of value/risk distributed on non-company owned hardware. Not implying that people have malicious intentions, but some people may not be so quick to completely delete proprietary property upon rolling of a contract and moving on.

[marcandalysse 0]

Thanks for the replies. So far everyone agrees with me on this one. I forgot to ask them if I would be responsible to acquire (and pay for) the software...like MS Office Pro which has Project and Visio, ERwin data modeling, etc etc.

mp

"The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton

[shropshire 0]

No. Because my client will not allow any out side devices to be connected behind their firewall. Must be a device built by them.

I use their device for their work, with their tools.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[PhreeZone 15]

Nope and with most companies starting to require full hard drive encryption of any laptop on their network I wouldn't allow my PC to be used there anyways. Depending on the software used to encrypt some now have a "call home" feature and if your computer has been removed from their list of managed nodes it will not allow access to the hard drive again until its been autherized. I'd hate to have my personal computer nuked because it was being managed by their corp security group at the end of the contract.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[BIGUN 1,106]

Having been in IT Management and having hired independent consultants on many occasion.... all of this can be handled contractually. Some bullet items for clause consideration would be:

Services and Compensation
Service Level Agreement
Payment Terms & Conditions
Status as Independent Contractor
Standards of Performance
Compliance with Law
Non-Competition
Indemnification
Confidentiality, Intellectual Property Rights and Security
Right to Audit
Notice
Choice of Law
Remedies Cumulative
No Waiver
Severability
Assignment
Survival
Entire Agreement

It sounds as if your "discussions" need to be reduced to writing [edit: by attorneys]. Both parties should be willing to enter into a formal agreement and then the Rules of Engagement are clearly defined.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[marcandalysse 0]

BIGUN thanks for your detailed comments. However, I am not referring to an independent consultant going into a client site. I would be a fulltime hire by the consulting company going to the client sites...I would expect my company to provide HW/SW for doing their work. But even when I was independent I would not use my own laptop on a job.

The contract doesn't detail the laptop situation. Beyond stating compensation, benefits, and bonuses there is the standard noncompete contract for signing. It refers to the Employee Handbook for details, which they haven't sent to me yet.

Marc

"The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton

[BIGUN 1,106]

Let me see if I got this right:

Client
Consultant
You (as FTE to the consulting company)

Then yes, they _should_ be required to provide all required HW/SW to you.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[normiss 643]

I've always been provided a desktop and laptop by the client in such a situation WHEN I was strictly on one contract. Multiple clients, then the company that was paying me would provide the gear.

[marcandalysse 0]

Bumping this up because I need to make a decision on this one soon.
I do like the company, and the renumeration and benefits and potential bonuses are okay.

But in reading your comments and talking to others, everyone has agreed that it is not a good idea to use a computer that I personally own. I still don't feel it is appropriate to use a computer I own for the company business. Too much liability, you never know what could happen...But I know that this is something they never had to negotiate with a hire before and are not sure if they want to go along.

It seems like a small thing to be a deal breaker, but ya never know. Am I being inflexible?

Further comments, friends?
Marc

"The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton

[SuFantasma 0]

The short answer is DON'T ! While the implications of protecting client date are daunting on their own right, that's a pretty straight forward issue.

One of the clauses you will find disturbing is the description of assignable intellectual property (the stuff that belongs to the consulting company as a byproduct of your employement or contract). In short, your personal laptop used for work may create a situation where everything you do in that laptop can be claimed as property of the consulting company...

Think about the consequences.

Y yo, pa' vivir con miedo, prefiero morir sonriendo, con el recuerdo vivo".
- Ruben Blades, "Adan Garcia"

[brettski74 0]

Quote

It seems like a small thing to be a deal breaker, but ya never know. Am I being inflexible?

When I was a full-time employee, there were still employment contracts that applied and I somehow doubt if that's changed in two years. If anything, they seemed to be getting more draconian over the years rather than disappearing, so I don't see how the contract negotiation points that BIGUN raised do not apply. Maybe you would want to tone down a little, since it less common to negotiate the finer points of full-time employment contracts, however, you're not stuck with the standard employment contract if you don't like it. How much bargaining power you have to change it will depend on how desirable you are for them as an employee and what competition you have for the position/s.

I've been independent for the past couple of years, but still, I've yet to find a client who hasn't provided a computer for me to work on. Maybe it's because I typically only contract to large companies, but generally they're not usually comfortable with too many, if any uncontrolled machines on their network. Everyone's already noted the security concerns, software concerns, etc My current client has provided me with a laptop on which I work from home more than half the time.

I'll also note that without knowing exactly what you do, it's difficult to give a definitive answer on what I'd think . Being in "IT" is about as broad a statement as being in "employment". [Wink]

You *could* buy a new separate machine only for work use. In fact, if it was me, I'd probably suggest that this is the only way to go. You could probably claim this as a tax deduction, but people always seem to talk about tax deductions like free money. They're not. You only get the tax back. I've no idea what the tax rates are in your part of the world, but if the tax rate is 40%, you still have to come up with 60% of the cost out of the same money you would have had anyway.

By having you provide your own laptop and software, the company is saving themselves a bunch of money. You need to factor this into the salary you demand. I'd factor in the cost of a new laptop every two years, cost of all of the likely software that you'll likely need including the cost of upgrades every 2 years. There's also the maintenance cost. They're probably going to expect a similar level of productivity to any other consultancies despite the fact that you're going to be installing all of your own software, troubleshooting all of your networking problems, etc. I'd factor in at least a few thousand dollars for that work/risk. Bottom line, I'd be expecting the salary to be perhaps 5000-10000 per year higher than I'm being offered for a similar job elsewhere where my employer provided the hardware and software. You described the remuneration and bonuses as "OK", so I'm guessing that they're not hitting this benchmark.

Other points to make sure are covered in your employment contract. If you own the computer, you are free to install whatever software you deem fit and to refuse installation of any software you deem unfit. Get that in writing. Failing that, at least agree in writing on a list of software that shall be installed on your machine and include a clause to say that any amendments to this list will be agreed in writing by both parties and that you are not under any obligation to accept such changes if you do not agree.

Bottom line, I don't think you're being inflexible. It sounds like you're uncomfortable with this and I'd want to make sure I had a strong, written understanding between myself and my employer before proceeding in such a manner. If you're prospective employer can't understand that, then I'd be concerned that they're possibly a bunch of backyard cowboys who will shaft you at every opportunity.

Do you really need this job?

[brettski74 0]

Quote

One of the clauses you will find disturbing is the description of assignable intellectual property (the stuff that belongs to the consulting company as a byproduct of your employement or contract). In short, your personal laptop used for work may create a situation where everything you do in that laptop can be claimed as property of the consulting company...

This is an interesting point. Again, it will depend on the terms of your employment contract as to how this applies, but most employment contracts for full-time employees that I've seen in the last ten years seem to expect that the employer owns everything you ever do, anytime, anywhere, so taht point may be moot. I even had one client since I've been independent try to assert a similar position. That was an interesting negotiation!

If the IP clauses are unsatisfactory, again, negotiate better ones or walk away.

I'd still suggest purchasing a separate machine for work and factoring the cost into my salary demands, so if your work contract does allow for independent thought outside of work, you can still do it on your personal, non-work machine.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Bumping this up because I need to make a decision on this one soon.
I do like the company, and the renumeration and benefits and potential bonuses are okay.

But in reading your comments and talking to others, everyone has agreed that it is not a good idea to use a computer that I personally own. I still don't feel it is appropriate to use a computer I own for the company business. Too much liability, you never know what could happen...

It's a huge liability to you and the company. My company (and most other financials) would fire/terminate for non company laptops being plugged into the network. The primary exception would be using one to plug into the back of a server via the serial port.

It's not being a jerk to ask them to provide you with a proper tool, or to compensate you for the purchase cost. But you definitely want it to be single purpose.

[marcandalysse 0]

Great responses everyone!

It is not a question of money, whether I spend it or they do is irrelevant to my concern. Plus they are providing all the needed software. Questions about 'intellectual property' etc are not the issue.

To me it is a LIABILITY question. If it is their machine and fucks up somehow then it's their liability in front of the client. If it's my ownership then a drive crash or whatever is my responsibility. Either way it would be a dedicated machine for work only, I do have a personal laptop for surfing DZ.com and etc.

Marc

"The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton

[normiss 643]

A number of Acceptable Use Policies I have had to agree to or create have included the rights of the company that owns the network to confiscate non-company equipment found on the network.
Most large corporations are very strict about what goes on their network on the production side. You may only be able to get to the visitor side of their network without the proper equipment, ownership wise. I would insist on it Marc, the couple of times I didn't care going in made the job very frustrating afterwards....usually sharing a piece of shit laptop that wouldn't quite do the job properly...or not being able to install or use the needed software tools.
It's not that tough to insist they provide one.

good luck with it.

[JoeyRamone 0]

If the consulting firm does not provide you with a laptop they are a joke. We provide all contractors or fulltime employees with laptops.

[normiss 643]

WHATUP!?!?!?!?

How you doin up there??? BRRRRR????

[JoeyRamone 0]

Hey my friend all is well snowing like a biach out but all good. What did you end up doing?

[normiss 643]

I took a very nice position with a national carrier...I'm supporting Metro Ethernet, MPLS, and BGP networks for clients all over the country.
Pretty easy gig ... nice compensation...worked out pretty well other than still being stuck in Florida.
It's low 80's today and tomorrow...season is in full swing at Z-Hizzie...the Fins have invaded....
damn....

[marcandalysse 0]

Well everyone, not a single person I talked with or who responded here said to use my own laptop for this company.

To those of you that said 'walk away'...that is what I just did. The final company decision was that I would be responsible for ownership of the laptop. If you saw their salary and bonus offer, you might say that I was nuts to stand on 'principles' or 'fear of the unknown liability'.....

FYI, this was a high paying salary plus multiple bonuses offer they gave me. For that, I was ready to sign on once they agreed to take responsibility for ownership of the laptop.

Looks like I won't be freezing my ass off up north next week!!!

Once again, thanks for the feedback,
Marc

"The reason angels can fly is that they take themselves so lightly." --GK Chesterton

[BIGUN 1,106]

Quote

this was a high paying salary plus multiple bonuses offer they gave me. For that, I was ready to sign on once they agreed to take responsibility for ownership of the laptop.

You have to ask yourself this question... If the compensation (Salary + bonuses) was so high, why didn't they lower it just a bit (5K smoothed out between both? If it were 5K less, would you have still taken the opportunity?

I think you did the right thing - something about this just sounds wrong.

Good luck.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.