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liloz

Problem night skydive

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>No one ever accidentally gets on a jump plane at night.

No, but they accidentally jump too close to sunset after a long traffic hold. They accidentally punch clouds and find visibility close to zero during breakoff. They accidentally have to land in dense fog. They accidentally have to land without being able to see much through a visor smeared with blood. They accidentally jump with reduced visual acuity due to hypoxia. And in all those cases, having experience with low visibility skydiving helps you save your own life.

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No, but they accidentally jump too close to sunset after a long traffic hold. They accidentally punch clouds and find visibility close to zero during breakoff. They accidentally have to land in dense fog. They accidentally have to land without being able to see much through a visor smeared with blood. They accidentally jump with reduced visual acuity due to hypoxia. And in all those cases, having experience with low visibility skydiving helps you save your own life.



All true.

But why stop with 'low visibility'? There are plenty of other risk factors that the USPA could use as reasons for additional training and competency requirements for the D license.

Why not make the license mean something more? Why not ask the applicant to demonstrate knowledge and skills relating to other relevant safety issues...

- Aircraft safety
- Gear knowledge
- Exit order / separation
- free fall / tracking skills
- Emergency procedures
- Canopy skills
- Visibility (here are your night jumps)
- others? (*)

If all one needs to do is a couple of night jumps, then the USPA really isn't asking for -- nor expecting -- much. And I think they have been missing an opportunity to mandate some training / competency requirements.


* insert snarky comment about packing here

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I think the intent of the night jump is to include the night jump training. Completing a night jump should include the required training, thus qualifying you for a D license.

And Croc, nowhere in this conversation is dissing us poor old farts acceptable. Putting down the elderly to prove your point is completely disrespectful. ...so, check your diaper sparky. ;) ;)
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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Why not make the license mean something more? Why not ask the applicant to demonstrate knowledge and skills relating to other relevant safety issues...

- Aircraft safety
- Gear knowledge
- Exit order / separation
- free fall / tracking skills
- Emergency procedures
- Canopy skills
- Visibility (here are your night jumps)
- others? (*)



Lol. Knowledge of all but one of the listed areas is actually part of the D license exam. Or perhaps you are just trolling :ph34r:.
The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.

Stephen Hawking

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FataMorgana

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Why not make the license mean something more? Why not ask the applicant to demonstrate knowledge and skills relating to other relevant safety issues...

- Aircraft safety
- Gear knowledge
- Exit order / separation
- free fall / tracking skills
- Emergency procedures
- Canopy skills
- Visibility (here are your night jumps)
- others? (*)



Lol. Knowledge of all but one of the listed areas is actually part of the D license exam. Or perhaps you are just trolling :ph34r:.

And most of it is also part of the A, B, and C license exams or the B canopy card. Maybe you (croc) have forgotten. Or never knew?
My first unofficial night jump started at just before sunset. I had about fifty jumps, a slow climbing plane and landing in almost total darkness. Watching the sunset from altitude was beautiful, but the landing scared me to death.
The bottom line, their are only three things you have to have a D license for;
Tandem I
Pro
Examiner rating
Don't need it for any other instructional ratings
Tandem; they never push the envelope at the end of the day
Pro; "the show must go on" is never a factor
Examiner; ok, I supposed they have to teach it???
Night jumps aren't stunts. Doing them, no matter the level of success, should teach a healthy respect for them and the extra dangers of jumping with limited visibility.
The current bunch of "I don't want to do it but I want my D" crap is just that.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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^ This, plus D exams and license applications are under S&TA oversight (and I think IE, but it's the same person at my DZ so I get confused). IMO, that S&TA is responsible to identify and correct any lack of skills, experience, or knowledge before signing off on a D license.

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There are plenty of other risk factors that the USPA could use as reasons for additional training and competency requirements for the D license.



Definitely. I would support, for example, more training for HP canopy flight for the D-license.

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Why not ask the applicant to demonstrate knowledge and skills relating to other
relevant safety issues...
- Aircraft safety
- Gear knowledge
- Exit order / separation
- free fall / tracking skills
- Emergency procedures
- Canopy skills
- Visibility (here are your night jumps)
- others? (*)



Those subjects are covered both by requirements (landing accuracy, freefall time, RW skill requirements) and by testing (separation and EP questions on C and D license tests.) However, to your point, adding training for critical ones (like canopy control) would help reduce injuries and fatalities.

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betzilla

*** I don't understand why night jumps are required for a D license. I can see the need for a Pro rating holder to be night qualified because of the possibility of doing night demos. The average jumper shouldn't have to take this risk if they never plan to jump at night for fun.



I totally agree with this. I did my two night jumps fifteen years ago, loved them, landed on target, and will probably never do another, unless it's a ridiculously cool setup. These days, I'm just not that interested in the added risk.

Eliminating the night jump requirement has been discussed several times in the time I have been in the sport. In comparison, live water jumps used to be required for a certain license years ago. After everyone went to squares (and thus dramatically reducing the odds of an unintentional water landing), the regulation was changed to requiring water jumps to get an instructional rating under the premise that instructors should make one to teach them better to others. Eventually the water landing requirement was eliminated entirely.

While we're on the subject of required night jumps, it would be interesting to hear from proponents of requiring them along with their logic behind that opinion.
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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betzilla



I totally agree with this. I did my two night jumps fifteen years ago, loved them, landed on target, and will probably never do another, unless it's a ridiculously cool setup. These days, I'm just not that interested in the added risk.



Say thank you for the spot, on a very windy night at altitude.;) After I closed the door Dennis asked, 'Are they going to make the airport' My answer? 'They could:)'.

This has been debated for decades. Try doing one on a round. I believe they are important for an 'expert' to have. If nothing else for the bad crap I've seen untrained people try to do. And some instructors let them.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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skyjumpenfool



And Croc, nowhere in this conversation is dissing us poor old farts acceptable. Putting down the elderly to prove your point is completely disrespectful. ...so, check your diaper sparky. ;) ;)



Age has nothing to do with being an old fart.
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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chuckakers



While we're on the subject of required night jumps, it would be interesting to hear from proponents of requiring them along with their logic behind that opinion.




Yes, let's here all that logic.
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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The bottom line, their are only three things you have to have a D license for;
Tandem I
Pro
Examiner rating
Don't need it for any other instructional ratings
Tandem; they never push the envelope at the end of the day
Pro; "the show must go on" is never a factor
Examiner; ok, I supposed they have to teach it???
Night jumps aren't stunts. Doing them, no matter the level of success, should teach a healthy respect for them and the extra dangers of jumping with limited visibility.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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billvon

>No one ever accidentally gets on a jump plane at night.

No, but they accidentally jump too close to sunset after a long traffic hold.



So don't allow anyone except D licensees to make sunset loads. Makes sense.

Quote


They accidentally punch clouds and find visibility close to zero during breakoff.



So don't allow anyone except D licensees to jumps if there are clouds around. Makes sense.

Quote



They accidentally have to land in dense fog.



So don't allow anyone except D licensees to make jumps when fog is forecast. Makes sense.
Quote



They accidentally have to land without being able to see much through a visor smeared with blood.



So don't allow anyone except D licensees to hit the door frame or be kicked in the head. Makes sense.

Quote



They accidentally jump with reduced visual acuity due to hypoxia.





No D license? Restricted to 10,000ft. No exceptions.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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ufk22

The bottom line, their are only three things you have to have a D license for;
Tandem I
Pro
Examiner rating
Don't need it for any other instructional ratings
Tandem; they never push the envelope at the end of the day
Pro; "the show must go on" is never a factor
Examiner; ok, I supposed they have to teach it???
Night jumps aren't stunts. Doing them, no matter the level of success, should teach a healthy respect for them and the extra dangers of jumping with limited visibility.




Is this an argument in favor of requiring night jumps for a D license? If so, I don't see that you've made a case--or am I missing something? And you admit that night jumps pose "extra dangers of jumping with limited visibility" and in the same sentence state that night jumps are not stunts. I suppose one could argue that performing Mr. Bills will give one a healthy respect for them and the extra dangers of jumping with someone holding onto your chest strap, which would also be pointless.
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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Croc

***The bottom line, their are only three things you have to have a D license for;
Tandem I
Pro
Examiner rating
Don't need it for any other instructional ratings
Tandem; they never push the envelope at the end of the day
Pro; "the show must go on" is never a factor
Examiner; ok, I supposed they have to teach it???
Night jumps aren't stunts. Doing them, no matter the level of success, should teach a healthy respect for them and the extra dangers of jumping with limited visibility.




Is this an argument in favor of requiring night jumps for a D license? If so, I don't see that you've made a case--or am I missing something? And you admit that night jumps pose "extra dangers of jumping with limited visibility" and in the same sentence state that night jumps are not stunts. I suppose one could argue that performing Mr. Bills will give one a healthy respect for them and the extra dangers of jumping with someone holding onto your chest strap, which would also be pointless.My point is that it is reasonable to require night jump experience for T-I's, Pro, and I-E. If you don't want to get any of these three ratings, you don't need a D license. Most of the people I see complaining about the requirement "want" a D for the sake of having a D.
"I'm entitled to this even though I don't want to do what's required to get it."
If we eliminated it for D and added it to an E license, the same people would be whining in a short time because they couldn't get their
E..
YOU DON'T NEED A D LICENSE FOR ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS SPORT.
Except maybe your ego.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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dthames

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They accidentally jump with reduced visual acuity due to hypoxia.


No D license? Restricted to 10,000ft. No exceptions.


10,000 MSL ?



OK, 12,500ft, just in case there's a go-around.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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ufk22

My point is that it is reasonable to require night jump experience for T-I's, Pro, and I-E. If you don't want to get any of these three ratings, you don't need a D license. Most of the people I see complaining about the requirement "want" a D for the sake of having a D.
"I'm entitled to this even though I don't want to do what's required to get it."
If we eliminated it for D and added it to an E license, the same people would be whining in a short time because they couldn't get their
E..
YOU DON'T NEED A D LICENSE FOR ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS SPORT.
Except maybe your ego.



Most of skydiving is for our egos. So I agree with you there. Nevertheless whatever requirements are made for whatever license should be relative to the purpose of the license and not merely dangerous.
"Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so."

Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy

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Croc

***My point is that it is reasonable to require night jump experience for T-I's, Pro, and I-E. If you don't want to get any of these three ratings, you don't need a D license. Most of the people I see complaining about the requirement "want" a D for the sake of having a D.
"I'm entitled to this even though I don't want to do what's required to get it."
If we eliminated it for D and added it to an E license, the same people would be whining in a short time because they couldn't get their
E..
YOU DON'T NEED A D LICENSE FOR ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS SPORT.
Except maybe your ego.



Most of skydiving is for our egos. So I agree with you there. Nevertheless whatever requirements are made for whatever license should be relative to the purpose of the license and not merely dangerous.

Not only that, there don't seem to be any performance metrics in place. You can totally screw up your jump and still get signed off. This strongly suggests that the requirement is just a rite of passage rather than having a meaningful purpose.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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The best reason for keeping the night jump requirement was articulated inadvertently to me by Diane Pond who was arguing against night jumps. She says she hates them because there is hardly anyone around with enough knowledge to teach them anymore.
But many. many, people still want to do night jumps. For lots of newbs it's one of the ultimate goals. And night wingsuit jumps are incomparable. Night jumps are a beloved part of skydiving and a tradition for a large percentage of skydivers.
And night jumps are an excellent learning experience. All aspects are reviewed by everybody, and everybody must plan and execute the jumps as a team.
Night jumps are not going away. There must be a mechanism for this knowledge to be passed down. It is a part of the sport. An expert in the sport of skydiving should have this fundamental knowledge. Requiring night jumps for D licenses thus helps insure that at least a few skydivers at every DZ have the knowledge to plan and execute safe night jumps.

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ShotterMG

The best reason for keeping the night jump requirement was articulated inadvertently to me by Diane Pond who was arguing against night jumps. She says she hates them because there is hardly anyone around with enough knowledge to teach them anymore.
But many. many, people still want to do night jumps. For lots of newbs it's one of the ultimate goals. And night wingsuit jumps are incomparable. Night jumps are a beloved part of skydiving and a tradition for a large percentage of skydivers.
And night jumps are an excellent learning experience. All aspects are reviewed by everybody, and everybody must plan and execute the jumps as a team.
Night jumps are not going away. There must be a mechanism for this knowledge to be passed down. It is a part of the sport. An expert in the sport of skydiving should have this fundamental knowledge. Requiring night jumps for D licenses thus helps insure that at least a few skydivers at every DZ have the knowledge to plan and execute safe night jumps.



That may be a compelling argument for an instructor rating. I fail to see why it applies to a "D" license.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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wow.... it's surprising that so few people LOOK at night jumps....BEYOND "some licensing requirement " :S
They are Soooo much MORE than that.....
Did my first dozen or so, out of cessnas in the early to mid 70s... :)B|:)We always had an excellent briefing, and the proper mindset, ( No lit beer light after the "sunset load" IF we intended to make skydives,,, Up to and beyond Mid night ).. Sometimes With a full moon,,, sometimes without..:ph34r:... The most recent NightDive which I enjoyed... was a 16 Way !!! out of the otter....ALL POPS !!!!! NO Joke....:)I can stillllllll re-envision most ALL of the exit, the dive, the dock,, and the Friends.... with whom I shared that joyful experience.... Didn't DO it for " some License ",,, didn't Do it " to get it OUT of the way ":S.. didn't do it, " to impress anyone"... Did it for "the Love of the sky"...Have enjoyed dozens and dozens of those kind of jumps.... including a FEW Late LATE sunset loads which turned INTO night jumps for a multitude of reasons...WHICH is a VERY good reason to get some Experience with THEM.....BEFORE finding oneself "out there in the dark " and having your knees knocking,,,, at 1,500 feet...and doubting your abilities, to simply "save yourself"..:P;)
I feel the same about water jumps....which we also used to DO,,,, Often... Fun, novel, interesting and when done with Proper preparation.... a memorable experience...

do... or do NOT.... whatever floats your boat.... Just Please... We must ALL be careful not to dictate or suggest,,, what Others may Do....Any discouragement could deny a fellow skydiver... a Great memory and landmark entry into their logbook...
jimmytavino
A 3914
D 12122
NSCR 1817

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