How many ways can you....

[skydiver604 0]

This is from the UPT Tandem Manual

CRW IS POSITIVELY BANNED ON ALL TANDEM JUMPS UNDER ANY AND ALL CIRCUMSTANCES (see fatality section).
This guideline is not optional. It must be followed or the Tandem Instructor and Tandem rig owner will be in violation
of the User Agreement under which Tandem jumping is operated and will consequently no longer be allowed to
legally perform tandem jumps.

here's the web link

http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Manual/SIGMA-MANUAL-COMPLETE.pdf

this can be found on page 158, note I am not a TI, I have no interest in being a TI, I have done 5 Tandem jumps and have actually lived / worked on a DZ in Canada. I have seen tons of tandem jumps being done and have had the opportunity to ask lots of questions about tandem skydiving as part of my skydiving journey.

hope the clicky works, if not would someone please fix it.

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

[PhreeZone 15]

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If they are experienced and safe, and one of them is also a pilot who has a boat load of hours, then the simple fact that there are no violations or incidents should be enough evidence of STC's safety for me.

Don't forget that STC is where this Otter suffered some pretty bad damage (upwards of $50k) last year: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3268106 so I wouldn't say there have been "no violations".

Anyone that has been around skydiving and aviation for a while knows not to brag too much on a flawless safety record since the next incident is possibly only a flight away.

Here is a really good thing to do, ask any tandem manufacture is Tandem CRW is permitted and what happens if tandem CRW is reported and see their reaction to see how safe it is. I've spoken to a few Tandem I-E's on this and everyone of them would have recommended pulling everyone's rating involved on the video and a few were interested in taking this back to UPT for investigation since they felt so strongly about it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[wolfriverjoe 1,352]

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This is from the UPT Tandem Manual

CRW IS POSITIVELY BANNED ON ALL TANDEM JUMPS UNDER ANY AND ALL CIRCUMSTANCES (see fatality section).
This guideline is not optional. It must be followed or the Tandem Instructor and Tandem rig owner will be in violation
of the User Agreement under which Tandem jumping is operated and will consequently no longer be allowed to
legally perform tandem jumps.

here's the web link

http://www.unitedparachutetechnologies.com/PDF/Support/Manual/SIGMA-MANUAL-COMPLETE.pdf

this can be found on page 158, note I am not a TI, I have no interest in being a TI, I have done 5 Tandem jumps and have actually lived / worked on a DZ in Canada. I have seen tons of tandem jumps being done and have had the opportunity to ask lots of questions about tandem skydiving as part of my skydiving journey.

hope the clicky works, if not would someone please fix it.

Clicky fixed.

Nobody has to "Be there"

There is a blatant violation of the rules on video.

The reason for that rule is that people died doing it.

There is other stuff on video that very experienced TIs find objectionable.

It isn't on just one video.

I'm not sure how anyone can defend this.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[mcordell 2]

I think the best outcome here would be that those involved are made aware of this thread, refrain from engaging in this behavior in the future, and move on to conduct business in the safest approved method possible. While I would hate to see such obviously skilled canopy pilots lose their ratings and subsequently lose their ability to introduce others to the sport, I would hate even more to see a tandem passenger and TI killed because of their carelessness. Get it together guys and move forward in a professional manner!

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[JohnMitchell 14]

Those guys in the videos have some awesome airskills. I watched them with the same awe that I would watch an airliner doing aerobatics. Impressive flying, but definitely wrong to do with paying passengers.

To the TI's I would ask "Are you just getting bored with your job? Maybe find another line of work,"

[skyjumpenfool 2]

I can’t stay quiet any longer! And please excuse my writing skills in advance.

Next time, before you start calling for heads and bashing people, get all the facts first……

The DZO’s, S&TA, and Instructors at the above mentioned DZ put a stop to these practices long ago. Well before this thread was even started. From my limited knowledge of this, they decided that even though they had a couple of the best damn camera fliers alive (mad skills doesn't even cover it), and even though they had a great safety record, they believed this activity to be dangerous. So, they put a stop to it!!

None of these practices were allowed at this DZ last summer. A great decision by the DZO’s, Instructors and all involved. Proof that these are smart, talented, safety minded folks who run a GREAT DZ!! In fact, I’m proud to say, it’s my home DZ.

Also, proof that self regulation does work. Yep, that’s right! We don’t need any self righteous "Safety Nazis”.

Bashing a DZ that’s already done "the right thing" is unnecessary and unfortunate. Doing so without all the facts is irresponsible. Since I think everyone’s on the same page about CRW and Tandems, enough said! As always...IMHO

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[The_Don 0]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this sure seems like " this summer" .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMK0n9fEExI

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[davelepka 4]

I don't know man, that one vid cleary states '5-22-09', and I notice they're jumping a Pac. Weren't they running an Otter from Spaceland in '08, the supposed last year of the shenanigans in question? I'm pretty sure I saw the Pac in other videos including shenanigans, but I never thought to check the dates.

I'm all for self policing, and I never suggested anyone lose their ratings over this. Maybe they stopped doing that stuff on 5-23-09?

Either way, let's just hope that it's all in the past as of now. Nobody got hurt, and in their defence, if they end all of it now, they did prove that they coudl get away with it without incident.

Of course if they keep it up, the jury is still out on the 'without incident' part.

[mcordell 2]

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I can’t stay quiet any longer! And please excuse my writing skills in advance.

Next time, before you start calling for heads and bashing people, get all the facts first……

The DZO’s, S&TA, and Instructors at the above mentioned DZ put a stop to these practices long ago. Well before this thread was even started. From my limited knowledge of this, they decided that even though they had a couple of the best damn camera fliers alive (mad skills doesn't even cover it), and even though they had a great safety record, they believed this activity to be dangerous. So, they put a stop to it!!

None of these practices were allowed at this DZ last summer. A great decision by the DZO’s, Instructors and all involved. Proof that these are smart, talented, safety minded folks who run a GREAT DZ!! In fact, I’m proud to say, it’s my home DZ.

Also, proof that self regulation does work. Yep, that’s right! We don’t need any self righteous "Safety Nazis”.

Bashing a DZ that’s already done "the right thing" is unnecessary and unfortunate. Doing so without all the facts is irresponsible. Since I think everyone’s on the same page about CRW and Tandems, enough said! As always...IMHO

Let me start off by stating that I don't want to see anyone's ratings pulled, nor am I "bashing" your dz; however, you want us to look at the facts first, so here they are. As others have already stated, CReW with tandems has been banned since long before these videos were shot, yet these TIs and Videographers engaged in behavior which they knew to be wrong and illegal. Furthermore, the fact they determined they should not be doing so any more, as you stated, indicates they knew the behavior was wrong in the first place.

I agree their canopy skills are quite impressive and that their actions led to the production of some pretty impressive videos. This however does not excuse their behavior. Simply stopping the behavior does not negate the fact that they engaged in the behavior in the first place and that they were wrong to have done so.

Roman Polanski raped a girl 32 years ago and is still being held accountable. Just because he may have stopped raping 13 year olds doesn't excuse the fact that he did

You wanted us to get the facts first, so there they are (polanski aside).

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[chuckakers 370]

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I can’t stay quiet any longer! And please excuse my writing skills in advance.

Next time, before you start calling for heads and bashing people, get all the facts first……

The DZO’s, S&TA, and Instructors at the above mentioned DZ put a stop to these practices long ago. Well before this thread was even started. From my limited knowledge of this, they decided that even though they had a couple of the best damn camera fliers alive (mad skills doesn't even cover it), and even though they had a great safety record, they believed this activity to be dangerous. So, they put a stop to it!!

None of these practices were allowed at this DZ last summer. A great decision by the DZO’s, Instructors and all involved. Proof that these are smart, talented, safety minded folks who run a GREAT DZ!! In fact, I’m proud to say, it’s my home DZ.

Also, proof that self regulation does work. Yep, that’s right! We don’t need any self righteous "Safety Nazis”.

Bashing a DZ that’s already done "the right thing" is unnecessary and unfortunate. Doing so without all the facts is irresponsible. Since I think everyone’s on the same page about CRW and Tandems, enough said! As always...IMHO

Might I suggest that you get all your facts first. Ditto to everything said in replies to your post. And by the way, long before you chimed in, I was told through numerous PM's by people in the know that the clearly unsafe acts by these morons was actually put to a stop after phone calls from certain "USPA types" before I exposed it here. Based on video evidence, that was sometime AFTER May of 2009. So much for your "self-policing" BS.

Best damn camera flyers? MY ASS! It doesn't take "mad skills" to dock on a tandem canopy. It does take a person with a complete disregard for the safety of an unsuspecting carnival rider to actually do it, and it takes a flaming moron with serious asshole tendencies to do it at an altitude so low that the tandem lands less than a minute and a half later. Video evidence doesn't lie.

Video doesn't lie, but apparently you do. You speak as if you have first hand knowledge that this shit stopped long ago ("None of these practices were allowed at this DZ last summer", you said), yet at least one video proves it was happening as recently as May of this year. Are you really so thick that you didn't review the videos in question before posting?

Maybe it's your profile that really does it for me. You list your rating as an "AFF Coach". Are you not rated to coach students that progressed using the static line or IAD systems, or do you just want to put "AFF" in front of your rating without actually earning the ticket? I also notice you enjoy CReW. That wouldn't be tandem CReW, would it? How 'bout low altitude tandem CReW? You into that too??? If you are, I'm sure your mad skills make it ok.

I've been jumping out of planes for a while now, and one of the things I have heard over and over again to defend dangerous, f*cked up activities is how incredibly talented the people doing them are. When are you and others like you going to figure out "mad skills" don't make a dangerous activity safe?

Your post tells me only one thing for sure. You should turn in your "AFF" Coaches rating until your attitude about safe vs unsafe skydiving is more in line with reality. And since you've been in the sport for 30 years, I doubt that's going to happen.

Maybe you should have stayed quiet after all.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Lighten up Chuck!

I said the DZ put an end to this last summer! Here in the great north, month 05 is considered spring. Hell, we have snow on the ground till July! Sorry if I misspoke.

And, I’m in no way trying to make excuses for, nor do I condone Tandem CRW. The point here is; this activity was stopped!!!!!!! To clarify, I don't remember the exact date, but it was (as stated above) long before your post. I have no knowledge of your private phone conversations or PM's. (thank god)

I never said (or didn't mean to say) I was any kind of expert. I just wanted to applaud this DZ's decision to correct this situation. Now you’re saying my rating should be pulled??? For what, defending a good safety decision on the part of a DZ? I don't know what led them to make this decision, I only know they did! Whether you believe it or not, THEY DID! Am I typing too fast for you?

I was NOT involved with this. As a camera flyer, I do not do CRW. I even hesitate to do docks when flying CRW camera. I'm in no way condoning the idea that CRW with Tandems is safe!!! Please stop reading into my posts. I am, however, in agreement with this DZ's decision to end this behavior!! 100%

I’m simply trying to point out the positive side of this situation! ... This activity has ended! What is it that you're not happy with here??? You apparently have a hard on for this DZ and now, even for me?

Let's end the personal attacks and look at the situation. A bad policy was corrected by a DZ and student safety was improved! This is a good thing! THAT'S WHAT I'M DEFENDING AND APPLADING!
I really have to wonder why you’re so quick to attack anyone that speaks up for this point???

Again, as always, IMHO!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[davelepka 4]

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A bad policy was corrected by a DZ and student safety was improved! This is a good thing! THAT'S WHAT I'M DEFENDING AND APPLADING!

Agreed. That's always good to see.

I think the problem is how that became a policy in the first place. Tandem crew was outlawed long before any of those videos were shot, and just judging by the variety of videos showing that, it was a regular practice at the DZ for at least a year.

I'm glad they stopped, but I'd be interested to hear their defense for allowing a clear safety violation to go on for so long.

[stratostar 5]

I just can't believe not only it went on so long, but that a DZ would let ANY one video of docks like that leave the property.....Let alone more then one.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

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but that a DZ would let ANY one video of docks like that leave the property.....Let alone more then one.

Trying to conceal the videos would imply that they thought they were doing something wrong. It's clear that they thought everything was 'A-OK', and had no problem sending the proof home with the customers.

They knew it was against the regs., but they proceeded to engage in such behavoir over a long period of time, with no attempt to conceal it. For some reason they believed that the rule was not meant for them, and that's the real problem.

[chuckakers 370]

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Lighten up Chuck!

I was addressing your support for a DZ where stupid shit seems to be the norm. So no, I won't lighten up.

I said the DZ put an end to this last summer! Here in the great north, month 05 is considered spring. Hell, we have snow on the ground till July! Sorry if I misspoke.

Understood.

And, I’m in no way trying to make excuses for, nor do I condone Tandem CRW. The point here is; this activity was stopped!!!!!!! To clarify, I don't remember the exact date, but it was (as stated above) long before your post. I have no knowledge of your private phone conversations or PM's. (thank god)

And my point was/is that you touted the DZO for stopping it by "self-policing". I think you should do a little asking around. I have had NUMEROUS PM's and e-mails from a variety of sources to the contrary, all saying that the activities in question only stopped after threats of action by people in positions to take such action. Either you don't really know what's happening at Twin Cities or your post was a lame attempt to put a good light on things there - or both.

If you thought the crap these idiots were pulling was wrong, why didn't you take steps to stop it? Are you afraid of being the "self-righteous safety nazi"? It's one or the other. You are a rating holder. Live it or give it up.

I never said (or didn't mean to say) I was any kind of expert. I just wanted to applaud this DZ's decision to correct this situation. Now you’re saying my rating should be pulled??? For what, defending a good safety decision on the part of a DZ? I don't know what led them to make this decision, I only know they did! Whether you believe it or not, THEY DID! Am I typing too fast for you?

A DZO that stops a dangerous activity under threat of action will almost certainly let other shit happen too. Do you honestly think that a DZO that will allow backwards tandem CRW won't allow other similar unsafe acts? Gimme a break. Based on my (very trustworthy) sources, the actions in question are typical of the mindset at Twin Cities. Could I be wrong? Yes. Does it seem likely given the feedback I've received from multiple people ranging from former AND current jumpers at the DZ to USPA types? No.

And apparently I typed too fast for you. I didn't say you should have your rating pulled. Let me type a bit slower. I...said...you...should...turn...your...rating...in until your attitude about safe vs unsafe skydiving changes. Don't put words in my mouth.

I was NOT involved with this. As a camera flyer, I do not do CRW. I even hesitate to do docks when flying CRW camera. I'm in no way condoning the idea that CRW with Tandems is safe!!! Please stop reading into my posts. I am, however, in agreement with this DZ's decision to end this behavior!! 100%

Given the above statement, I have a hard time with you knowing this shit was going on and NOT saying something about it. This wasn't a case of a once-in-a-while cloud punch or a pencil-packed rig 2 days out of date. This was a case of deliberate, ongoing violations of BSR's, FAR's, and manufacturer's rules put in place to keep our unsuspecting carnival riders safe, and was conducted with full knowledge - and possible participation of - the people who run the place. I didn't read into your post. As a rating holder, you have a responsibility to act when you have knowledge of BLATANT unsafe acts. You failed to do that - period.

I’m simply trying to point out the positive side of this situation! ... This activity has ended! What is it that you're not happy with here??? You apparently have a hard on for this DZ and now, even for me?

No hard on. My point was made clear in the words above. I'm not happy because I doubt seriously that these DZO's and staff members really get it, and that bothers me and shouild bother you.

Let's end the personal attacks and look at the situation. A bad policy was corrected by a DZ and student safety was improved! This is a good thing! THAT'S WHAT I'M DEFENDING AND APPLADING!
What personal attack? Everything I have said has been issue based. Have I accused anyone of being a bad person? No. My problem was/is with the actions of these people as evidenced by videos and your tolerance of it. Nothing more, nothing less.

I really have to wonder why you’re so quick to attack anyone that speaks up for this point???

No need to wonder. It has been explained. And by the way, I wasn't so quick nor did I attack you. Again, my comments are issue based.

Again, as always, IMHO!

And IMHO, the fact that you knew this was going on and failed to speak out to someone - ANYONE - is grounds for your voluntary removal from student training. Unless, of course, there's something I don't get.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[stratostar 5]

It's my understanding that this DZ is a club and has a BOD not a DZO, so that would be a number of DZO's who stood by and watched for a period of time.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[PhreeZone 15]

I'm pretty sure its nota club. There is a club up there but its not this DZ. http://www.skydivetwincities.com/staff.htm

This lists all the Staff including an owner that lists Tandem Instructor/Examiner, AFF Instructor, USPA Course Director as his ratings.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[davelepka 4]

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a number of DZO's who stood by and watched for a period of time.

According to post #63, it's sounds like the DZO might have been a participant and not just an observer.

[stratostar 5]

I missed the #63 thing. Phree, your right not where I had in mind, and after see some of the folks on staff, I'm even more surprised if some of the implied players is true.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[chuckakers 370]

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I missed the #63 thing. Phree, your right not where I had in mind, and after see some of the folks on staff, I'm even more surprised if some of the implied players is true.

Doesn't surprise me. If a DZO will allow it, I figure they'll partiicpate in it. I am kinda surprised they were stupid enough to do it on video. Have they not heard of youtube?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[dorbie 0]

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Not to stomp on your flames but look closer, that was 2 regular jumpers...

Will

You're right. Of course it was still pretty f*cking stupid.

So is jumping out of an airplane.

[timmyfitz 0]

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You're right. Of course it was still pretty f*cking stupid.

So is jumping out of an airplane.

[chuckakers 370]

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Not to stomp on your flames but look closer, that was 2 regular jumpers...

Will

You're right. Of course it was still pretty f*cking stupid.

So is jumping out of an airplane.

Whatever. Get a profile if you want to be taken seriously.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[dorbie 0]

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Not to stomp on your flames but look closer, that was 2 regular jumpers...

Will

You're right. Of course it was still pretty f*cking stupid.

So is jumping out of an airplane.

Whatever. Get a profile if you want to be taken seriously.

Whatever skycop. Learn to admit when you're wrong if you want to be taken seriously.

[mcordell 2]

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Not to stomp on your flames but look closer, that was 2 regular jumpers...

Will

You're right. Of course it was still pretty f*cking stupid.

So is jumping out of an airplane.

Whatever. Get a profile if you want to be taken seriously.

Whatever skycop. Learn to admit when you're wrong if you want to be taken seriously.

That's great advice...but can you point out how he was wrong? Seems to me, from reading the thread, pretty much everyone has agreed that there were blatant violations of regulations. Some have said that it stopped already, but I fail to see how he was wrong.

Are you saying that CReW with tandems is ok?

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging