UFC 91: Couture v Lesnar

[GQ_jumper 4]

So here we are, two weeks away from the most anticipated MMA fight of 2008........AND I GOT TICKETS!!! Just thought I'd throw that in there

Randy "The Natural" Couture versus Brock "didn't he used to be in the WWE?" Lesnar. There has been non-stop chatter in the forums and countless articles, most of which say the same thing......"but Brock is just too big, and Randy is old and stuff". I don't think I've ever seen so many so called experts and analysts being so short sighted and ignorant when it comes to discussing an MMA match, its getting disgusting honestly. I know I don't exactly have a huge soap box to stand on when I talk about MMA like the idiots over at the Bleacher Report or The Bloody Elbow do, but for our dz.com hardcore MMA fans(all 3 1/2 of us) it seems I have an ability to break it down pretty well, so lets kick it off with the challenger.

Brock Lesnar(2-1, 1-1 UFC), with only 3 MMA fights total under his belt is being given a title shot.......one more time for effect..........Brock Lesnar is fighting for the title after only 3 MMA fights. I'll let everyone here decide what a poor move that was in regards to legitimizing my beloved sport in the eyes of the public, we have now proven that there is no ranking system of any kind considering Minotauro and Mir are going to be sitting ringside holding up big, bright Wil E. Coyote signs that say "WTF". But before I go off on a huge rant about how much of a piece of crap Dana White is let me get back to Brock. Deserving or not the fact remains that in 2 weeks Brock is going to be stepping into the cage to fight for the heavyweight title. Brock comes from a wrestling background, during his collegiate years he was a Gopher at Minnesota state, during his college years he managed to rack up a 106-5 wrestling record in freestyle wrestling. He was a two time big ten conference champion and a two time all american wrestler. After his college career Brock was signed to the WWE where he spent a few years entertaining the likes of those who find their family reunions to be great mixers for singles, I of course speak of those cuddly group of rednecks who populate the WWE fan ranks!!! After leaving the WWE Brock made a failed attempt at pro football, he tried out as a defensive back and had a rumored roid rage episode midway through the tryouts. He then decided to try his hand in the sport of MMA, in an unrelated story UFC president Dana White instantly began touching himself in public that very second for no apparent reason. Brock's first fight was against a kickboxer named Min Soo Kim, who is Min Soo Kim you say, OK I'll tell you, ummmmm, yeah, and there you have it, that's who Min Soo Kim is. And if you're still confused don't worry, so am I, I've never heard of him, but according to his illustrious record of 3 wins against 6 losses he's apparently quite the worthy opponent. So after walking through Min Soo Kim Brock moved to the UFC and was immediatly matched against his first credible opponent Frank Mir the former UFC heavyweight champion who technically never lost his title and made himself famous by snapping Tim Sylvia's arm in half. In the minute and forty eight seconds it took Mir to submit Lesnar all the MMA analysts were screaming "oh my god Brock is so good", and in the 3 months following the match Mir was all but forgotten while everyone kept saying "well Lesnar only lost because he didn't win, and he's still awesome and stuff". It was an orgy of oral gratification being offered to Dana White's new golden boy, Brock was matched up shortly after that fight with UFC hall of famer Mark Coleman but due to a training injury Mark had to withdraw from the match and was replaced at the last minute by Heath Herring. Lesnar managed to grind out a decision against Herring, I haven't seen the fight all the way through but from what I have seen I'm unimpressed. Brock opened the fight with a right that sent Herring over backwards, a punch that everyone is using to tout Lesnar's god-like standup. Well anyone with any kind of striking knowledge will look at that punch and wonder what the hell was wrong with Herring that he let that fist touch him. It was thrown way from the outside and telegraphed in a way that a blind retard could've ducked it. During the rest of the fight Brock did little more than lay on Heath, the parts of the ground game I've seen had me screaming at how sloppy Brock's control is from an MMA standpoint, he may be able to deal with Heath but a savvy submission artist or wrestler will have no trouble moving the fight to where they want it to be unless Brock makes some huge improvements in his BJJ game. So breaking Brock down we see a few things that everyone can agree on, size and strength that is unrivaled in the division, speed that matches that of some light heavies and an impressive wrestilng resume. Brock has all the raw talent a champion needs but has yet to figure out how to translate it to MMA finishes against mid to upper tier opponents.

And now the Champ, Randy "The natural" Couture(16-8) AKA CPT America, the undisputed king of upsets and the greatest under dog of all times. Randy has been counted out in almost every major fight he's ever had, and has subsequently made a career out of making odds makers look like retards and helping those who bet on the little guy retire early. Randy came out of retirement at the age of 43 after 13 months away from MMA to not only beat but completely dominate the UFC heavyweight champ at the time Tim Sylvia. Sylvia at that time was on a reign of terror being untouched by all who stood in the ring with him, every one of his title defenses was against someone bigger and seemingly more dangerous than Randy and Randy was such a heavy betting underdog that nobody gave him a chance(except me!). And in the first minute of the fight Randy launched a perfectly timed overhand right that sent Tim across the cage and onto his back, and the following 24 minutes of that fight was a constant struggle for survival by Sylvia as Randy embarassed him constantly. His first title defense was against a very scary opponent in the form of Gabe Gonzaga. Once again Randy was counted out, everyone figured his return was going to be over as quickly as it started. Those thoughts of course were erased shortly into the first round when Randy scooped up a man who outweighed him by 30+ pounds and slammed him so hard that Gonzaga's nose was shattered. Early in the 3rd round Randy finished off the younger, bigger, and stronger opponent proving that his victory over Sylvia was no mistake and a whole new Randy had really been born. Randy carries with him one of the more impressive wrestling resumes in MMA, I refrain from calling it the most impressive as we have men like Lindland, Randy's former teammate, walking around with Olympic medals. Randy was a three time all-American, three time Olympic alternate, and runner up for the 2000 Greco-Roman team. A lot of people said that his Greco-Roman style would be ineffective against equally talented freestyle wrestlers until Randy spanked(literally, he slapped his ass) Tito Ortiz in a 5 round war that gave Randy the Light-Heavyweight title. Randy has also improved his standup game in ways unimaginable in recent years, he outstruck Sylvia in their match going the entire 5 rounds without ever taking a single solid shot, his head movement and footwork makes him look like a pro boxer and his timing with strikes is constantly improving. And we can't forget that Randy is the best tactician in MMA, in almost every fight he has ever had he has been the lesser of the two fighters on paper yet every time he walks in with such a well composed gameplan that he executes flawlessly that he is nearly indestructable. And lastly lest we forget that he has only ever been knocked out by one man, Chuck Liddell so nobody can question how tough his chin is. So in short what does Randy bring to the table, a lifetime of experience matched by few others, Olympic caliber wrestling ability, top-notch striking, conditioning that is unmatech by few others seeing as how he looks the same in round 5 as he does in round 1, and a heart that can't be questioned. At the age of 45 Randy keeps denying father time and proving the pundits wrong, he can't ever be counted out.

Let's put these two together in the cage and see what we come up with. Despite his size and incredible wrestling ability I'm sure Brock is going to be smart enough to know you can't shoot for a takedown on someone like Randy from the outside without paying for it. This will undoubtedly force Brock to stand and exchange with Randy on the feet in order to put himself in takedown range which will lend itself as an advantage to Randy. Randy isn't going to get caught by a sloppy overhand right like Brock tends to throw, Brock has a bad habit of announcing that a punch is coming with shoulder movement before the fist even begins to move and Randy's boxing is too good to let that catch him. Randy will slip that big right that Brock is going to recklessly throw and send a 1, 2 combo back at him that will have him thinking twice about anymore exchanges like that. Randy will keep moving his feet and changing the range and angle that Brock will have to move to score that take down while constantly throwing quick shots as he moves through the pocket at an angle that will keep Brock from getting lined up for a takedown. This will put Brock's chin to the test for the first time, Brock has yet to take a good punch to the chin but according to some second hand information I have coming from a former training partner of his its made of a substance closely resembling glass. Brock was supposedly knocked out twice in training recently, the first time by accident and the second time to make a point after he took the first KO to heart and started going to hard against his trainers. Randy is also undoubtedly going to try and take this fight into the championship rounds that Brock has never seen before in an effort to test his heart and conditioning, this could go either way for Randy and only time can tell us if this will help him or not. The longer it goes however the more time Randy will have to pick him apart making Brock hesitant and allowing him to turn the wrestling battle into his game, wrestling on a mat and wrestling in a cage are two largely different animals and Brock has not yet learned to make the transition. Let's look at one other scenario though for arguments sake, opening bell rings and Brock charges across the ring head down pushing Randy against the fence and landing him on his back. the fight against Herring showed that despite his ability to control the positioning Brock lacks the ability to inflict major damage while on the ground. And Herring has nothing close to the ground game that Randy posseses so it can be easily argued that Brock will be unable to control Randy and keep him down long enough to do something with it. Size advantage or not Brock won't be able to keep Randy down long enough to be effective here, Randy is far too good at using the fence to his advantage to let power overwhelm him. So despite the oddsmakers counting Randy out in every aspect of this game I'm going to give it to the champion to retain his belt due to experience and superior gameplan, I think Randy is going to finish the fight late in the 4th by way of TKO. Go ahead and count Randy out if you want but before you do go watch his fight against Sylvia, I still get chills watching that first punch, and then go ask Tito, Chuck, Vitor, Tim, Gabe, Kevin, and Pedro about what happens when you count Randy out, there's a reason he is one of the greatest legends in the history of the sport and November 15th is going to be just one more opportunity to prove the critics wrong.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[BillyVance 34]

I like Brock, but like you, I don't think he is ready for a championship fight, and I think Couture will embarrass him with his experience. There might be times when Brock's size and strength has Couture reeling, but like you said Couture has experience and know-how to counter bigger fighters.

If I were a betting man, I'd bet on Couture winning, despite his age. Lesnar has star appeal for sure, and the charisma and attitude. We all know the WWE has the highest rated shows on cable TV so the superstars there tend to be better known than the superstars on UFC.

I think if Lesnar has a top-notch trainer for his MMA career, he could transform into the most feared fighter in a long time. Right now he's just a diamond in the rough, or maybe a step below that. I can't believe he's getting a title match already.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[cderham 0]

I like Brock as well but Randy is going to proprly welcome him to the UFC. enough said

Chris
It's Jimmy Time!!
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Team-Fast-As-Fuck/6099474213

[GQ_jumper 4]

As long as Brock finds a trainer who puts a boot in his ass to get him to drop those bad wrestling habits then he will have a great career. Unless that story about the glass chin turns out to be true, and Randy is definitely going to test that, word out of Randy's camp is that he is hitting harder in sparring than he ever has before, he keeps getting better and more powerful with age. A 45 year old UFC champ, that's juts insane.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Vallerina 2]

My vote is on Randy.

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..........Brock Lesnar is fighting for the title after only 3 MMA fights.

And not even 3 MMA wins! Obviously, Dana wants to make tons of money, and this fight will do just that. I can't say that I wouldn't do the same if I was in his position. It is, however, especially a shame when guys like Lyoto haven't had a title shot yet. I guess he's not pretty enough or loud enough. (In defense of Dana, at least he's not just welcoming Kimbo into the UFC despite his popularity....although he should welcome Seth back for justifying that decision to everyone else )

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I think Randy is going to finish the fight late in the 4th by way of TKO.

I'll one up you and say the third round...just to be different

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[GQ_jumper 4]

It is, however, especially a shame when guys like Lyoto haven't had a title shot yet. I guess he's not pretty enough

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Lyoto will get a title shot when he stops being such a boring fighter

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[Conundrum 1]

I can't wait for this fight. I'm not sure who will win - anything can happen. I'm rooting for Couture, though.

[PeregrineFalcon 0]

I really hope you're right. It's moronic to give a guy with three fights a title shot, especially since the guy who beat him is waiting on The Ultimate Fighter to end to get a shot at what was supposed to be the heavyweight title. I really want Randy to win.

However, I can see Lesnar taking Couture down, throwing lame punches, but using his weight and wrestling to keep him down and winning a boring decision. I can't see Lesnar knocking him out or submitting him. I also can't Couture avoiding the take down forever.

With that said, Courture has already mentioned that there are some definite weaknesses in Lesnar's game. And he's right. His punching sucks, surprisingly so. He is VERY quick to shoot, but if a fighter like Courture knows the shoot is coming, it can be stuffed, even with the weight disparity. I just don't see him stuffing it all night. Couture has got to take BIG advantage of the times he does stuff it. I'd love to see Lesnar take a knee to the face.

[GQ_jumper 4]

However, I can see Lesnar taking Couture down, throwing lame punches, but using his weight and wrestling to keep him down and winning a boring decision. I can't see Lesnar knocking him out or submitting him. I also can't Couture avoiding the take down forever.

With that said, Courture has already mentioned that there are some definite weaknesses in Lesnar's game. And he's right. His punching sucks, surprisingly so. He is VERY quick to shoot, but if a fighter like Courture knows the shoot is coming, it can be stuffed, even with the weight disparity. I just don't see him stuffing it all night. Couture has got to take BIG advantage of the times he does stuff it. I'd love to see Lesnar take a knee to the face.

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This is actually something I touched on in my analysis but I'd be more than happy to discuss it again. I'm going to bring up something said by Chuck Liddell in a radio interview a few weeks ago. Kurt Angle called into a show and talked about how in an MMA match he would easily take Chuck down. The tape was played to Chuck a few days later when he visited the show and he gave his take on it. In a strictly wrestling match there is no doubt that Kurt would put Chuck on the ground, unfortunately for Kurt MMA and wrestling don't go hand in hand. Wrestling is a good compliment but there are some huge fundamental differences, in wrestling when you are getting ready to shoot on someone you stand a couple of inches away before you change levels and close the gap. In MMA that can't happen because you will be eating a series of jabs, in an MMA match you have the striking to worry about and anytime you are outside of striking range you are even further out of take down range. Hence why Tito never effectively put Chuck down.

Bringinig it back to the upcoming fight, there is no way a fighter with Randy's experience is going to let Lesnar stand in take down range without eating a series of jabs intended at adjusting the range of the fight. Brock isn't going to be able to stand in the pocket long enough with Randy to time a well set up takedown. If you look at a lof of freestyle wrestlers in MMA when they go for takedowns there is about 2 or 3 main combos that they use when setting up takedowns, with the exception of those phenoms such as GSP. When they throw those combos they are subjecting themselvwes to counter punching. Looking at Randy's experience it can be argued that the majority of his time in the takedown defense department is not going to be spent clinched up with Brock, he is smart enough to stay away from that game in the early part of the match. He is going to constantly use his boxing to tag Brock anytime he steps into takedown range and make Brock hesitant of takedowns, look at what Forrest did to Tito in their matchup, he used an effective jab to keep Tito at a range where his takedowns were ineffective. Once Forrest found that good punching range and maintained it Tito was helpless when it came to takedowns. I can maybe see Brock getting one takedown early in the first if he just puts his head down and charges but when he realizes that Randy is going to scramble to the feet keeping Brock in close quarters, trap him in a corner and catch him with a solid combo as he moves back away Brock is going to quickly become hesitant of the takedowns. He is going to get dismantled, every aspect of his gameplan is going to fall apart a piece at a time.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[jtval 0]

I, too, think this fight is crap.
However, I think it will be exciting to see Randy prove the critics wrong ...again.

Brock needs to leave the WWE shit out of the octagon. He's shitting on the sport when he fake lassos his opponents after putting on a sorry display to a decision bout.

I have not been impressed with herring at all once he got to the UFC. He's been a lame horse.

Brocks "superstardom" is only that to WWE fans, which I am not.
Randy has amazing cardio a solid chin and heart that has to be delivered in a truck.

Unless brock starts hitting in the back of the head and the ref doesn't see it I can't imagine any way for him to win.

I would like to see Mir climb back to his title, though... even if he immediately loses it.

Dana has been slapping alot of his fighters in the face by allowing Brock to have a shot at the title.

WTF is that about (der, its about money).

Mir and Noguiera should be pissed!

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[murrays 0]

I think the UFC has become more "WWE-like" over the last while anyway and bringing in a WWE star like Lesnar and giving him a shot at the title without him "making his bones" makes me lose interest in the UFC.

I think becoming more mainstream isn't producing a better product. The referees nattering at fighters to constantly do something so that the people in the stands who don't know anything about grappling and groundfighting will be entertained is just one example.

Good luck to Randy but I sure won't tune in.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[jtval 0]

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The referees nattering at fighters to constantly do something...

Yea. if you read my last thread about UFC 90 you'll see that I was pissed of ,too.
The chicago audience were fucking assholes, too, though!

They booed at everything for no reason.


Vallerina yelled at one of them to go home.

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[doug925 0]

I too think that Randy is the better fighter, but Dana White REALLY wants Brock to win.
After the contractual fallout between RC and Zuffa, and that Brock is drawing fans from WWF, Dana will probably blow a wad in his pants when Lesnar wins.

Notice, I did not say if! Shit, Dana will probably put something in RC's drink that night before! LOL JKJK

It was WAY too fast for Brock to get a title shot! he needed at least 5 good fights before.
I feel bad for Mir too, as he stood a good chance to regain his title eventually.

Oh well, I might head to a bar to watch, but I won't contribute via PPV like I always do.

Doug.

I have never developed indigestion from eating my words.
Winston Churchill

[GQ_jumper 4]

I think becoming more mainstream isn't producing a better product. The referees nattering at fighters to constantly do something so that the people in the stands who don't know anything about grappling and groundfighting will be entertained is just one example.

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Typically as long as the fight hasn't completely stagnated they won't stand it up or restart it. When it gets to the point where someone is pulling guard and being completely defensive and the fighter on top isn't accomplishing much it should be stood up IMO. And I'm a grappler myself, I love watching the ground game, as long as the fighter on his back keeps an active bottom game or the fighter on top is inflicting damage than I am against stand ups. But nobody wants to see a wrestler with no finishing skills lay on someone and grind out a boring decision.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[jtval 0]

I think Murrays was refering to UFC 90 where the ref was a gigantic douchebag.

The fiighters were CLEARLY working but the ref kept telling them to do something.

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[jephprospect 0]

I got 50 on Randy.

[jtval 0]

Cool. If randy wins you'll give me $50? DEAL!

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[jephprospect 0]

lol I've bet with like 3 buddies of mine on this fight. If I loose I think my tab is around $120 or something. that would really suck

[murrays 0]

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I think Murrays was refering to UFC 90 where the ref was a gigantic douchebag.

The fiighters were CLEARLY working but the ref kept telling them to do something.

Exactly...if the refs are going to take away the ground game to try and provide highlight reel KOs for the sake of people that don't appreciate the ground game then I think the UFC has moved away from its original precept in a direction I won't be supporting with my interest or dollars.

--
Murray

"No tyranny is so irksome as petty tyranny: the officious demands of policemen, government clerks, and electromechanical gadgets." - Edward Abbey

[jtval 0]

I think the ref was just feelinh the pressure of the crowd.

Even Joe rogan was calling the ref a retard.

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[jephprospect 0]

maybe that's why anderson silva was dicken around because he thought the crowd sucked

[jtval 0]

Maybe. I couldnt decide if her was being disrespectful or funny.

I think it's a combination of the two but it was pretty funny to see him offer a hand to Cote.

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[BillyVance 34]

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I think the ref was just feelinh the pressure of the crowd.

Even Joe rogan was calling the ref a retard.

What if the two fighters stopped, then looked at the ref, and then punched his sorry ass out? Would the arena go nuts?

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[jtval 0]

No. I would expect that from lesnar.
The reason I like the UFC so much is the same reason I like skydiving.
the fighters have a mutual respect for eachother, and more importanly, their sport.

Punching the ref is better left to the theatrics off the wwe.
(last one I know of is danny davis)

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[BillyVance 34]

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No. I would expect that from lesnar.
The reason I like the UFC so much is the same reason I like skydiving.
the fighters have a mutual respect for eachother, and more importanly, their sport.

Punching the ref is better left to the theatrics off the wwe.
(last one I know of is danny davis)

I know... I was kidding... but hey, I thought Kimbo's opponent with the cauliflowered ear was gonna punch out the ref too last summer...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban