*Warning re: Delta Airlines

[Push 0]

Dialog between me and CYPRES person:

Quote

Hi Eugene,

unfortunately it is not as simple as "providing you with this part
number"

and the FAI has nothing to do with this or the countries that have
approved CYPRES

presently we, PIA, and USPA are working with TSA, actually helping
draft their screeners training manual

Ed Scott from USPA was just recently in Atlanta working with TSA
X-raying rigs, taking photos, etc.

we are working on it, but the situation is going to get bad, then
worse, then really terrible, but will eventually be resolved and all
will be OK

until then, it is going to be hit or miss - the best suggestion I can
offer is to allow a lot of time at the Airport, but if you are going
on a skydiving trip and want to make sure your rig is there, you might
want to consider shipping it via UPS or Fed-x

at least it can be insured for a decent price, unlike checked baggage
with the airlines

this matter is a very high priority, for the past few years we have
been working with the Airlines, but then after Sept 11, it took over a
year before TSA would even take time to talk to us

but they are now, and like I said, I expect it to get really ugly
tomorrow,but it will get better - the only question is how long

Sorry I can't be of more help right now

have a good New Year - just don't plan on flying commercial with
anything more than your wallet

Cliff



On Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:55:21 -0500, you wrote:

>Hello,
>
>Skydivers have always experienced problems getting their rigs onto
>commercial airliners. It looks like that, with the improved security
>measures, it will be even more common for a skydiver to be turned away from
>the plane because of his/her rig. The document on:
>
>http://www.pia.com/SSK/cypres/dot_pr_082500.pdf
>
>claims that the US DOT, as well as other organizations in other countries,
>have acknowledged the CYPRES to be safe on commercial flights. However, it
>seems that a lot of the security personnel is not aware of this. In fact,
>the same personnel is not aware of what a CYPRES is, much less what it does,
>how it does it, and that it is safe. Now that the federal government is
>replacing aviation company security screeners, and that new bag checking
>measures are being implemented, it is becoming necessary to visibly declare
>the CYPRES as a non-dangerous good. This document:
>
>http://www.pia.com/SSK/cypres/AirTravelUpdate.htm
>
>states that the DOT certificate refers to the CYPRES by part number. Could
>you perhaps provide us with this part number, and explain what exactly a
>part number is? Is it tacked onto every particular CYPRES (unlikely)? Do the
>expert/tandem models have different part numbers? What is it in the first
>place?
>
>Also, what about another country, like Canada? Should all FAI affiliated
>countries recognize the CYPRES, or just the US?
>
>Thanks for your help,
> - Eugene Eisenstein
>

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Here is the email I recieved from Delta today:

_______________________________________________________________


Dear Mr. Hanrahan:

Thank you for taking the time to write regarding your experience at the
Washington Dulles International Airport on December 28, 2002.

Federal law prohibits many hazardous materials, such as compressed gas
cylinders, in either checked or carry-on luggage. To ensure the safety
of our passengers, Delta reserves the right to refuse to transport any
questionable items. Nonetheless, we regret any misunderstanding, and
are sorry for any inconvenience you experienced. Mr. Hanrahan, your
comments are appreciated, and will be helpful in our overall performance
evaluation.

Again, thank you for writing and sharing your experience with us. We
hope you will forgive us for the poor impression you received, and will
grant us an opportunity to serve you again in the future.

Sincerely,

Heather Futch
Manager
Customer Care

______________________________________________________________

I think it's becoming abundantly clear after over 10 years cypres has been in production..with all the time we are told USPA and SSK have put into educating Delta Airlines and others, after all the communications with TSA, FAA, DOT etc., Delta Airlines doesn't have a clue what a cypres is.

They have just helped me make my decision what Airline I will NOT be flying in the future.

Bob

[Gravitymaster 0]

My reply to Delta Customer Care:
________________________________________________________________

Dear Ms. Futch,

Thank-you for your quick response to my inquiry regarding Deltas' denial of
service to me on December 28, 2002. It is unfortunate that Delta Airlines
has chosen a position that is NOT shared by any other Airline regarding the
Cypres-Automatic Parachute Opener. I find Delta's position particularly
troublesome in light of the fact that it is fairly common knowledge within
the Airline Industry this device does not contain any compresses gas and has
been certified as acceptable to be carried on by DOT/FAA. Most recently our
governing organization, the United States Parachute Association and the
Cypres's manufacturer has been involved with educating TSA as to what they
look like on an X-Ray screen, and insuring they do not trigger the new
devices which sense explosives.

However, if this is Deltas position, I will post your correspondence on the
Internet to over 100,000 Skydivers worldwide who fly with the Cypres, some
several times per year, so they can make an informed decision in the future
as to which Airline will be their best choice when considering their
Skydiving vacations.

Sincerely

John Hanrahan

[weid14 0]

I don't know, it appears from Delta's letter they were admitting a misunderstanding about the Cypres?

[sdctlc 0]

Now that is the letter to see what the reply will be.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[Gravitymaster 0]

Quote

I don't know, it appears from Delta's letter they were admitting a misunderstanding about the Cypres?

Which proves my contention this was not just one uninformed individual I encountered at Dulles Airport, but a Delta Airlines Policy!

[weid14 0]

I took it to mean that the individual at Dulles didn't have a clue and they (Delta) were admitting that. I eagerly await the response of your reply to her. and I've decided not to fly to eloy this evening to jump tomorrow cause I don't want to deal with it.

[Push 0]

Quote

Federal law prohibits many hazardous materials, such as compressed gas
cylinders, in either checked or carry-on luggage. To ensure the safety
of our passengers, Delta reserves the right to refuse to transport any
questionable items. Nonetheless, we regret any misunderstanding, and
are sorry for any inconvenience you experienced. Mr. Hanrahan, your
comments are appreciated, and will be helpful in our overall performance
evaluation.

It's unclear what she means here. Perhaps she means that Delta think that the CYPRES contains compressed gas. In that case, enough said. Perhaps she is simply explaining what went through the security guards head when he saw your CYPRES. In that case, it seems like an apology for uninformed security. This would be covered by the letter from SSK, and is understandable, if only in the sense that people are working on correcting the situation.

Perhaps it was vague on purpose...

Edited to correct gender of quoted person.

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[diverdriver 5]

TSA = Thousands Standing Around

I rest my case.

Chris

[Gawain 0]

Quote

My reply to Delta Customer Care:
________________________________________________________________

..... and insuring they do not trigger the new
devices which sense explosives.

If you've not sent it yet, you want that to read, "ensuring they do not trigger..."

Just in case...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[PhreeZone 15]

TSA= the end of air as my first perfered travel method. I personally believe that all these security measures will kill air travel and put a few more airlines out of business since people don't want to get to the airport 3 hours early every flight (new TSA reccommended check in time).

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[weid14 0]

that's for sure, there are more security agents than ever before. the uniforms are pretty spiffy, but in the end I don't think we are any safer than 9/10/01

[Gawain 0]

Quote

TSA= the end of air as my first perfered travel method.

When this thread first got started, I checked out all sorts of possible routes I might take using Amtrak. Greater ammenities for the money, but not always cheaper.

However, I did find that if I wanted to go to Lost Prairie next July, it would cost less to take Amtrak than to fly. There are other options if one plans accordingly...

I've not used the train since I was a kid. If I had to make a long trip now, I'd need a room...and someone to share it with I think.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[freeflir29 0]

I'm envisioning a Gulfstream V with topless stewardess and a ramp in the back.....so you can slide out with your rig on..... You just wait till my company gets going.....

[narcimund 0]

Quote

I personally believe that all these security measures will kill air travel

I TOTALLY agree. Commercial air travel was on the edge of bearable for me two years ago. I'm now completely turned off by it. I accidently booked tickets for a vacation a month ago before I remembered how awful it is. Habits die slowly. I won't make that mistake again.

Humans used to go to the moon and fly around the planet. Things are rapidly going backwards now.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[WFFC 1]

Quote

I'm envisioning a Gulfstream V with topless stewardess and a ramp in the back.....so you can slide out with your rig on..... You just wait till my company gets going.....

It's already been done. Was on the Travel Channel a few weeks ago, just can't remember the name of the airline.

-----
~~~Michael

[seedy 0]

This thread has convinced me that on my upcoming business trip in a couple of weeks that Delta is not an option. I will drive 1300 miles before I will fly with them.

I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.

[DZBone 0]

Quote

When this thread first got started, I checked out all sorts of possible routes I might take using Amtrak. Greater ammenities for the money, but not always cheaper.

Also, train and road travel are still more dangerous than air travel.

_________________________________________________
If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound?

[homer 0]

All I know is I'm not driving 3 days to get to Houston just because of my rig. I will take it on as a carry on. If they say NO then everybody in the Pacific Northwest will see my mug on the 5pm news. Oh and I was already planning to fly on Delta before this post was made.

CSA #699 Muff #3804

[wmw999 2,166]

Mouth, Skymonkeyone and Katiebear flew Delta to Eloy with no problems (at least they arrived with their rigs, and they weren't foaming at the mouth because of TSA). So it is possible. In Houston Hobby and Phoenix, there was no issue with TSA. I'm told Houston Intercontinental is a little tougher, but I try to avoid that one anyway. I'd say most of the time it's OK, and it really really sucks when it isn't.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[freeflir29 0]

Quote

It's already been done. Was on the Travel Channel a few weeks ago, just can't remember the name of the airline

Yeah....but the point is.....it's MY Gulfstream V.

[jfields 0]

Quote

I personally believe that all these security measures will kill air travel
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I TOTALLY agree. Commercial air travel was on the edge of bearable for me two years ago.

I'm happy that I'm not required to fly for business. It would drive me nuts. My family just took a vacation that involved air travel, including the post 1/1/03 security changes. It was a pain in the ass, and I wasn't even traveling with my rig.

Right now, there seem to be no standards. The TSA isn't about safety or security. It is about the illusion of safety and security. The airlines want passengers and revenue more than they want effective security. I just made an international flight, using electronic self-check in. Nobody ever asked for the document I listed (birth certificate) and my passport is expired by 2 years. The inconveniences I faced on this trip were all unrelated to anything that actually made any difference in the safety of my flight. Some of the factors that could have made a difference were sloppy business as usual.

The problems with the lack of accountability in resepect to luggage were discussed in Quade's thread about it, but they are valid. I wouldn't want to depend on the screeners or the airlines for proper handling of anything valuable, but there isn't much choice. It just sucks.

There are over-reactions all over the place. It isn't just in air travel. I was in the mall the other day while on my vacation. I was hauling around a bunch of winter coats, backpack, shopping bags, my daughter in a stroller, etc. I asked someone at one of the stores if I could have a large plastic bag to put all the coats in for easier carrying. The answer was, "No. For security reasons, we can't do that any more." That is typical of the absurdity we are facing. Had I spent $100 on some bulky purchases, they would have happily given me all the bags I wanted to haul my merchandise around in. I could have then dumped the merchandise and used the bags for whatever nefarious purpose I intended. They were right under the counter and plenty of customers had them. Like terrorists wouldn't have enough money to make a purchase if they wanted a bag. Or they could just carry one in.

I'm all for security improvements, if they actually work. I'm a generally patient person, and I'll put up with a good amount of inconvenience. But what we have now is a flailing overreaction. Private companies, organizations and the government are all blundering around trying to looking busy to reassure they public that everything is fine. They are throwing up smoke and mirrors to tell us we are safe. We aren't, we haven't been, and we won't be. Things could be better, but there are still no guarantees. That's just life.

[dbattman 0]

Nice response Grav! I especially like the part of posting Delta's position to the entire online skydiving community.

[DZBone 0]

Right on, Justin. There is a culture of fear building, and people in authority extending their control by invoking "security concerns". We need to push back, or we risk losing even more freedoms...

_________________________________________________
If you hadn't read this, would it have made a sound?

[narcimund 0]

Fear-building even in the word we apply to this season's boogiemen.

First Class Citizen Twice Over