How many altimeters?

[skybill 18]

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I believe Dom mostly does RW, and maybe even mostly 4-way. 4000 is a nice conservative altitude from 4-way if you don't jump a canopy that snivels for 1200 feet.

I normally dump a little above 2, and I'm open by 1800 (which is where my pro-track is set). And I'm very happy with that; it's consistent and I know what to expect and when.

Wendy P.

Hi Wendy,
"I'm with you on this one!!!!!" At least we can get our RW's worth!! Took several newbies on training missions and they were hangin' in the saddle at 5 grand!! With all that airtime left I could have done a style set or two If I'd a' known they were that spooked!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[longtall 0]

FISHING LINE, great idea,Ive been using 2000 ft of picture wire tied to my scrotum with a live rat as weight; but fishing line sounds much more comfortable. Thanks.

" 90 right, five miles then cut."---Pukin Buzzards

[airtwardo 6]

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FISHING LINE, great idea,Ive been using 2000 ft of picture wire tied to my scrotum with a live rat as weight; but fishing line sounds much more comfortable. Thanks.

Try using both...then you can have TWO altimeters like the OP!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[dninness 4]

I used to jump with just one, a old Sapphire I bought when I was a student (ok, it was *new* when I bought it).

Then when I started coaching I picked up a cheap Alti 2 on Fleabay and moved the Sapphire from the chest mount to my wrist (helps me with being able to accurately gauge what altitude my student pulled at.. I just throw my hand up where I can see both the alti & the student and when they pull, i have a pretty good idea). The chest mount just marks me as an "old-timer" (*cough*) to the "kids," and I use it when I'm tracking and sometimes under canopy.

About 2 years ago, I got an audible so I could fill that hole in the side of my A3, and I use it as a backup to the Mk1, Mod0 eyeball and the analogs. I find more often than not that the "breakoff reminder" beeps in my ear while I'm tracking, and I get the deployment reminder after I've let go of my pilot chute. The eyeballs are working as intended.

Last season, I got an Alti-track for a song from another jumper, and retired the Sapphire to my helmet bag/backup/loaner duty.

During the AFF course, however, I got dinged on a practice eval for signaling "PULL" to the student too high. I saw "6500" on my alti and said "time to get into the slot for pull time" and then I figured "OK, that took me about 5 seconds, so lets signal pull.." I threw the "Pull" out there, and as I did I rotated my wrist toward me and saw that I was still at or above 6000ft and quickly withdrew my finger. The "student" continued on his merry way ignoring me (so I thought) and I threw "pull" back out at 5500 and we finished the skydive.

I landed and could not figure out what the hell happened, and the evaluator asked me "Why'd you give me pull at 6200 ft?" and I didn't have a good answer. That night when I looked at the face of the Alti-track, I realized how I mis-interpreted the markings. Above 6000 ft, the Alti-track's scale changes from "1000 ft per major division" to "2000 ft per major division". What I'd read as "6500" was really probably "7000+." In the dinking around to get in my slot for the pull, I only burned 1000 ft or a little less, and instead of being around 5500, I was well over 6,000.

I showed up the next day with the Sapphire back on my left wrist, my altitrack on my right (I wanted to still record speed & freefall time), the chest mount and my audible to finish the course out. Sure, my buddies laughed at me (I wound up putting the altitrack in my jumpsuit pocket) for being so "Gucci."

I have since gone back to the Altitrack with additional training and practice. And of course, the Mk1, Mod0 eyeball still functions as designed.

NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19

[Andy9o8 0]

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Also, lose the audible. I think relying on an audible altimeter to know when to break off and when to pull is a disaster waiting to happen. Or at least a low pull waiting to happen. Audibles make people lazy about altitude awareness. They don't provide altitude awareness except when they beep. When they don't beep, you aren't altitude aware if you're relying on an audible.

Having an audible as a backup is not the necessarily same thing as relying on it. Having come up Back in the Day when no-pulls/low-pulls, probably from loss of altitude awareness, caused a lot more fatalities than they do now, I feel that the lower rate in modern years comes from 2 factors: modern AADs and audibles.

[pilotdave 0]

I use an audible and agree... but I think that it's important to develop good habits early on. Those that get audibles at 30 jumps and set them 500 feet high to warn them that breakoff is coming are not doing themselves any favors at all.

Dave

[popsjumper 2]

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I strongly recommend learning to land 100% by sight. It's a lot safer to keep your eyes out than to spend time (even a little time) looking at an altimeter.

One great piece of advice that should be repeated often and drilled into everyone's head.

Train the best altimeter you have available....your eyeball(s).

Thanks

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JackC1 0]

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Train the best altimeter you have available....your eyeball(s).

I visited a DZ once where the CCI explicitly told me not to eyeball the altitude. He said the fields around here are a lot smaller than people are used to and people who eyeball the altitude usually end up pulling low.

The Mk1 eyeball may be useful, but it ain't fool proof.

[azureriders 0]

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Train the best altimeter you have available....your eyeball(s).

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I visited a DZ once where the CCI explicitly told me not to eyeball the altitude. He said the fields around here are a lot smaller than people are used to and people who eyeball the altitude usually end up pulling low.

The Mk1 eyeball may be useful, but it ain't fool proof.

When judging altitude you are using sight picture, not depth perception. Sight picture changes anytime the terain changes. So every time you change DZ's, there is a strong chance that you will have to give your eyes time to adjust to the new sight picute.

In a new area with "small fields", your eyes may indeed cause you to pull a bit low, but when it comes to not hitting the ground, nothing is a fool proof as your eyes.

[pilotdave 0]

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The Mk1 eyeball may be useful, but it ain't fool proof.

I agree. I think I can do a pretty good job of judging altitude by eye at my home DZ a lot of the time, it's easy to fool the eyes too. I remember one really clear day a couple years ago at another DZ where my 4-way team was training. I was the video guy. Now the entire team had visual and analog altimeters so the chance of me ending up low was... low. But I try to keep an eye on where I'm at, and I can't really look at my altimeter without screwing up the video for a little bit. Well on a really clear day, everything on the ground just looked so close. There was at least a few jumps where I was convinced we were LOW from looking at the ground behind the team. We were still at 7000 feet or something. On a hazy day, maybe the opposite will happen and we'll appear higher than we are.

The thing is, most experienced skydivers can judge altitude pretty well under the right circumstances. I could do a better job if I could look around, out at the horizon, etc. But the truth is that we don't always have the chance to do that. If you're on an RW jump turning a million points, you can't stare off in the distance to judge altitude. Everyone on a 4-way team might be awesome judges of altitude by eye... but I swear some teams would go in turning points if all their audibles failed at once.

Dave

[dgskydive 0]

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but I swear some teams would go in turning points if all their audibles failed at once.

Back in 96-97, i used to shoot video for Perris TNT. They used to ask me to drop down below them at 4.5k so they knew when to break. Then they would geek the camera before tracking. LOL. I think that is when I got used to pulling at 2k. Fuckers always had to get there faces in the camera before they considered the jump to be over.

Dom

[jumpwally 0]

I thought he made his living making rigs,,?

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I thought he made his living making rigs,,?

Wow, did I ever have to go back and see who we were talking about here.

No, Andy Farrington is part owner of a turbine DZ, jumps all over for Red Bull, and is a rigger/pilot/AFF-I/TM-I/Pro rated skydiver. He can pretty much do it all. When not doing demos and film work for Red Bull, he spends much of his time instructing and flying at the DZ. I even get to jump with him some. He's not too bad of a jumper.

It's Kelly Farrington, his cousin, who owns Velocity Sports Equipment, the maker of the Infinity.
http://www.velocityrigs.com/

[popsjumper 2]

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... but I swear some teams would go in turning points if all their audibles failed at once.

...and turn another point after{/i] the bounce?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davjohns 1]

Well - ask three people and get three different answers, I guess.

L&B replaced my Viso with a brand new Viso II. Very nice to see that kind of customer service.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[fendor1369 0]

One analog alti track and my eyes.

John - D.S 1313

"I'll jump it, Np. It's all good"

[erdnarob 1]

As I have mentioned in another post, I have my analog altimeter (Altimaster II) for more than 35 years without any problem. It has been calibrated a couple of times and all I had to do is changing the lens when scratched.
On the other hand I use two beepers, a Time Out (my favorite but not anymore in production) and a Protrack to get details on my jumps.
I don't think so that using two altimeters is necessary. After a while you will get used to one altimeter and a beeper plus your internal clock and last but not the least your visual evaluation of the altitude after opening.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[rbjacobs 0]

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I use an audible and agree... but I think that it's important to develop good habits early on. Those that get audibles at 30 jumps and set them 500 feet high to warn them that breakoff is coming are not doing themselves any favors at all.

I got an audible as a present at 30 jumps, and after some thinking set it to give me an alarm only at 2500 ft. If I ever hear it, I'll know it's past time to deploy. The analog wrist-alti and eyeballs are all I rely on.

(I normally deploy at 3500, 2500 is brown-trowsers-time for me - there's a whole planet coming my way!)

[fasted3 0]

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I use an audible and agree... but I think that it's important to develop good habits early on. Those that get audibles at 30 jumps and set them 500 feet high to warn them that breakoff is coming are not doing themselves any favors at all.

Dave

I don't know Dave. Mine goes off at 5500' for my first alarm. The way I see it is if I don't hear it, maybe it's not working. I'm usually at a pretty good distance from the DZ to make it back at that point, but around then I'm paying attention to where I am, and where is that alarm. The next one is at 4000. From there, I pull by eyeball by 3k, sometimes I hear the one at 2500' at the bottom of a snivel, or if I choose to go a bit loweer, but haven't heard it without something out yet. My alti-track says I'm pretty consistant.
I don't think I'm too dependent on it. I've jumped with no altimeter at all, and at my home DZ would do it again without too many worries. I'd be more careful at other places, but think I could do it safely enough if I had to. I jump with no helmet sometimes.
You did mention new jumpers, and I'm not trying to push it for anybody. What works for you is fine with me. I'd like to hear your thoughts on my method, though.
I got my ditter at 75 jumps or so. Those are the settinga it had then, and I never changed it.
All I do is wingsuit.

But what do I know?

[pilotdave 0]

Obviously setting an audible high isn't automatic death. It'll be fine most of the time. But I know I don't know the difference between my first and second alarms on my audible. I use it on most jumps and have been using it for probably 1700 jumps, and I still couldn't describe what the first and second alarms sound like. If I missed one alarm and caught the second alarm and wasn't paying any attention to altitude other than that, there's a good chance I'd find myself pulling low. But of course we all have an internal clock and start expecting pull time to be coming up, so we're usually pretty aware of our altitude as we get close to pull time. The problem will come when things aren't normal... like when your buddies convince you to freefly with them. Your internal clock will be all screwed up and you might miss that breakoff alert.

Now don't get me wrong, the chances are low when you keep the alarms set to the same altitude every time and pretty much freefall (or fly) for about the same amount of time on every jump. But switching between jump types, pull altitudes, etc... well... I believe we should know our altitude throughout the jump, not just when we hear a beep and thing we remember what altitude it was set for.

Ever seen someone track off at 8000 feet because their audible was set wrong? I've seen someone with thousands of jumps do it. And then of course turn around and come back.
Dave

[fasted3 0]

Thanks for the answer, and a good one. I think I'm going more by eyeball than anything else; flying with other people cuts a lot off my time, so I don't use an internal clock that much. I like a long skdive and didn't care for freeflying, but I'm sure it's harder doing that to get it right than it is for me. I think it's possible to get pretty good with eyeballs, and they are my primary way of doing it. I hardly ever look at my wrist mount unless I'm double checking my eyes or my audable. I fly on my back sometimes but not too low. As for telling my beeps apart, I can do that since I hear two of them every time, and know when the're coming, pretty much. The third one leaves no doubt what it is, lol.
It's worth mentioning that on jumps that are really going to shit, either through malfunction or instability, it becomes much harder to hear anything at all.
My ditter is an imortant tool in my toolbox, but not my primary one. I believe that can be true for others that set theirs differently, and it is no less useful they way they, or you, do it. If anybody asked me, I'd say use one, but won't argue if somebody doesn't want to. Anybody reading this is probably doing it right.
Still, I can think of at least one person that might be reading this if they had used one. Just my opinion.

But what do I know?

[erdnarob 1]

Beware of your eyeballs when you change from a DZ to another one. Landmarks can be very different in shape and size and having a glance on the ground doesn't always give you the real altitude and can be far from it.

Things which happened to me about that:
1) Orange Massachussets : years ago I was doing a style series there and when finished, I look down to see a enormous sandy bowl (target). I pulled right away, then looking at my altimeter I could read 5000 feet. At Orange at the time they had the biggest bowl I have ever seen (about 300 feet diameter).
2) Rantoul Illinois at the WFFC : I was doing a 8 way FS and when I started to track I looked down to see the town, the streets and cars below me, again I pulled immediately to find myself open at 5000 feet or so.
3) On a night jump (Winchester Ontario) years ago, I was doing a 6 way FS and when tracking with an extra two seconds because of the lack of visibility and relying on the few lights on the ground I pulled. The other jumpers did the same to find out we all opened at about 1200 feet.

A little story (true or not true) to illustrate the same idea : A jumper from California was used to pull when he could see the color of the oranges on the orange trees. One day he was jumping and when waiting to pull, he was expecting the color of the oranges to show up. Nothing happened since the growers had picked up those oranges. The result was a very low pull.

I believe the best is to have different devices like an altimeter, a beeper and your eyes and ....you pull according the device giving you the lowest altitude. Is that makes sense ? In other words, don't trust just one device to give you the altitude.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.