Racer quick loops

[riggerrob 558]

A few years back, I half overheard an angry conversation between John Sherman (Jump Shack) and Scott Christensen (Adventure Sports Loft, Perris Valley, California). The jist of the argument was that John Sherman hated the floating quick loops recommended by Airtec.
So which do we follow: the container manufacturer's instructions, or the AAD manufacturer's instructions?
Which version do you prefer and why?

Let's limit this conversation to adjustable, Cypres-compatible closing loops in Racers.

[riggermick 6]

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A few years back, I half overheard an angry conversation between John Sherman (Jump Shack) and Scott Christensen (Adventure Sports Loft, Perris Valley, California). The jist of the argument was that John Sherman hated the floating quick loops recommended by Airtec.
So which do we follow: the container manufacturer's instructions, or the AAD manufacturer's instructions?
Which version do you prefer and why?

Let's limit this conversation to adjustable, Cypres-compatible closing loops in Racers.

Gotta go with the H/C manufacturers recomendation over the AAD manufacturers, unless it's on the actual material used in construction. The closing loop design/ configuration on a reserve is part of the certified system and the H/C manufacturer is the only one who can legaly change it.

Mick.

[JohnRich 4]

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Gotta go with the H/C manufacturers recomendation...

What does "H/C" stand for?

[kingbunky 3]

harness/container i would guess

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[riggermick 6]

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Gotta go with the H/C manufacturers recomendation...

What does "H/C" stand for?

Horrible/ Crap!!!! Actually it's Harness/ Container.

Mick.

[NickDG 23]

The early Racers, like the SST models, had loops that were not adjustable or free floating. The pre-sized loop was actually sewn to the top of the pilot chute (under the hat, of course). This was later changed to a floating, but still not adjustable, design. This assured that even if one of the ripcord pins didn’t fully clear its loop the pilot chute would still launch.

The knock on adjustable loops is probably the fear that either the rigger, or worse, the non-rigger owner hogs down on the loops to make the pack job look better. This can make the ripcord pull force much higher than normal and bend the pins. I would guess this is why John Sherman doesn't like them. Riggers love them especially the older ones who remember the early SSTs when during a first time assembly you had to estimate the loop size, and if you guessed wrong, it meant starting over again.

Racers, if must be said, calls for a rigger comfortable with them in order to make the pack job look good and function within specifications. I find full time riggers who refuse to deal with pop tops often say they don't like the design for one reason or another, but to be frank, I think they'd just rather do Vector type rigs as it's just easier.

I'm not a working rigger at the moment and even I get someone else to pack my Pop Top. Even though I've packed a fair amount of them over the years, I still have to get out the book, LOL.

Mick's Reflex also has the adjustable loop but it’s easier to make a Reflex look good, so the chance of someone over tightening the loops is not so much of an issue. As far as whom to listen to, well, in terms of rig design John Sherman has it all over Helmut Cloth. And unless there's something else bugging John about Cypres loops I'm not aware of, I'd say it's a wash . . .

NickD BASE 194

[crash 0]

What really is the question here? Sewn vs. Floating OR Adjustable vs. Non-adjustable?

Over tightening any closing loop is an issue onto itself.

Sewn vs. Floating:
It can be argued that a sewn loop (as opposed to only tacked) on a two-pin reserve could prevent the pilot chute from a proper launch if both pins did not clear the loops (or if both AAD cutters did not properly activate). 1 vote for floating.

However, the double loop on a racer does not always slide easily through the pop-top and therefore may hamper the pilot chute launch anyway. 1 draw.

Sewing a double loop does prevent it from accidentally being pulled out of place during a reserve pack job. 1 (rigger) vote for sewn.

My vote is for tacking it lightly with safety thread, being carefully during packing and trusting that the launch force would pull the loop through if only one pin/loop cleared.

[riggerrob 558]

Adjustable loops in Racersx have been a given since the early 1980s.

My original poll asked whether riggers prefer the (Jump Shack) version sewn to the cap or the (Airtec) loop that floats in a tape channel.

I personally prefer Airtec's version because it takes 1/10 the time to replace.

May this whole poll is just an attempt to get Jump Shack to publicly explain why they dislike floating loops.

[RIGGER 0]

The Jump Shack's "Quick Loop" is the ONLY TSO'd APPROVED loop for the RACER h/c by the h/c mfg.

As a Rigger you have to follow the H/C manual & instructions, means you MUST use the "Quick Loop"
made from "Cypres Line".

Safe Rigging !!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The Jump Shack's "Quick Loop" is the ONLY TSO'd APPROVED loop for the RACER h/c by the h/c mfg.

Were Cypres loops around when Racers were TSO'd?

Derek

[masterrigger1 2]

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The Jump Shack's "Quick Loop" is the ONLY TSO'd APPROVED loop for the RACER h/c by the h/c mfg.

Were Cypres loops around when Racers were TSO'd?

Derek

***

ummm.... No, but I think John added it to his technical sheet.
I know for a fact it was added when we did the TSO for the racer Tandem!!!

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[RIGGER 0]

When the SST was TSO'd it was TSO'd with a fixed loop sewn to the on a 1" Ty.4 tape & hand tacked with 5 cord to the p/c CAP, the loop was made from a gutted sleeving of Ty.3 line (550 lb.)

After that a KEVLAR Quick Loop was made & when the Cypres AAD was approved for the Racer by Jump Shack the Quick Loop was changed to the Cypres Line.

Today the Cypres Line "QUICK LOOP" is the ONLY loop approved by the Jump Shack for the Racers with & w/o AAD.

Safe Rigging !!!

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The Jump Shack's "Quick Loop" is the ONLY TSO'd APPROVED loop for the RACER h/c by the h/c mfg.

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Today the Cypres Line "QUICK LOOP" is the ONLY loop approved by the Jump Shack for the Racers with & w/o AAD.

So, it isn't TSO'd?

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When the SST was TSO'd it was TSO'd with a fixed loop sewn to the on a 1" Ty.4 tape & hand tacked with 5 cord to the p/c CAP, the loop was made from a gutted sleeving of Ty.3 line (550 lb.)

After that a KEVLAR Quick Loop was made & when the Cypres AAD was approved for the Racer by Jump Shack the Quick Loop was changed to the Cypres Line.

Are the type II (gutted 550 cord) and kevlar loops TSO'd?

Derek

[teason 0]

I've had some interesting conversations with Canadian riggers on the subject. The belief is that because we don't need TSO'd gear in Canada, we can replace the quick loop with anything we want. I don't know if that's acceptable for FAA riggers working in Canada as we would be knowingly violating the TSO.
** anecdote time**
Getting back on track, I know an ijnstructor who was dispatching with a racer on when one of his loops broke (he was on the step at the time). The loop, however, while non adjustable was sewn to the hat. The whole job was an example of "creative rigging" but because the loop wasn't floating, he didn't get dragged over the tail. Having done thousands of IADs and having a couple of deployment scares myself, I like having my loop tacked to the PC.

Ultimately, heres the deal. The Quickloop is a TSO'd componant and I think only a Mater Rigger or the Manufacturer can make one. I believe they must also have the drawings on hand. Anything else, even Cypres' suggestion is a violation of the TSO.

I think Cypres, being concerned with the proper function of the AAD, just wants a system that will still activate even if one cutter fails. Hence the floating loop suggestion.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Ultimately, heres the deal. The Quickloop is a TSO'd componant and I think only a Mater Rigger or the Manufacturer can make one. I believe they must also have the drawings on hand. Anything else, even Cypres' suggestion is a violation of the TSO.

Then the same would apply to any reserve closing loop.

Derek

[CReWLL 0]

You should use the Cypres, non-floating loop in the USA, if the Racer you are working on has a Cypres, or was mfg after that loop was approved. If you have a Racer w/o a Cypres, in the USA, any of the versions of sewn loops are approved - kevlar, spectra, or Type 2. If you are outside the USA, you may use the floating, Cypres loop suggested by Airtech.

[teason 0]

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Then the same would apply to any reserve closing loop.

As far as I know, it's only for the Racer. I believe it's because it is part on the reserve Pilot Chute

Maybe a call to Nancy would be a good idea ...

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[brettpobastad 0]

...just want to make sure we're clear on the different types of Racer reseve pilot chute closing loops.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong or if I'm missing something but I beleve the versions are...

1. The original, non-adjustable loop. Gutted 550 cord sewn to a length of 1" square weave which was then sewn to the top of the pilot chute underneath the hat. I've run across a lot of different, non-factory versions of this type over the years. You won't see very many of this type these days, because the next version was....

2. The adjustable Kevlar loop. This is the original version of the 'Quick Loop', manufactured and named by Jump Shack. It was one continuous piece of Kevlar, double fingertrapped and sewn to a piece of 1" square weave which was then sewn to the top of the pilot chute underneath the hat. Each of two running ends are used to shorten (not tighten) the closing loops, located at 12 and 6 on the pilot chute. These running ends were then tucked back in between the pilot chute top and the hat. (In the owners manual, the rigger is given the option of tacking the properly adjusted closing loops, in effect making them non-adjustable) This type was supplied standard with all Jump Shack models from the late 80's until the mid 90's (or thearabouts) when the set up for a Cypres became standard on all models, creating the need for the...

2. Cypres compatable "Quick Loop". This version is adjustable. It is designed and built by the factory, and installed by the rigger exactly like the original Quick Loop except that Cypres line is used instead of Kevlar so the loops will fit through the cutters. Not to be confused with the....

4. Cypres dual loop. Often called the Cypres Quick Loop, this adjustable and 'floating' version is supplied with a two-pin Cypres from the Airtec factory. The Cypres line is a continuous piece that is double fingertrapped similar to the Jump Shack version for adjustability. This loop is then passed through a channel (similar in length and width to the piece of square weave on the Jump shack versions) The channel is then tacked to the top of the pilot chute underneath the hat (similar to the way the square weave on the factory versions are mounted) Because the adjustable loop unit is not tacked to anything, it is free to float through the channel. The reasoning being that if one loop breaks or only one cutter fires or if only one pin is pulled, the loop assembly will be pulled through the channel, allowing the pilot chute to clear and deploy. This is the only 'floating' version of the Jump Shack style dual loop and probably the one that John Sherman was arguing against using on his rigs.

I use only the Jump Shack supplied, Cypres compatable, Quick Loop (#3). I like the design of the Cypres dual loop (#4), in principle! However, in practice, it makes closing the container (specifically, adjusting the loops) a bit trickier. And the chances of only one loop releasing (for any reason) are extremley slim. In the most likely situation of the three, where one loops breaks, the remaining loop then acts as a back-up, keeping the pilot chute relativly in place. A much more desirable scenario than an inadvertant deployment over the strut or tail, or in freefall or under canopy. I don't believe there has ever been a documented case in which only one of the two Cypres cutters has fired (in affect, a Cypres malfunction that should not hinder normal reserve deployment). And it would be virtually impossible to pull (or dislodge) only one of the two pins (never mind the fact that the reserve pins on a Jump Shack rig are next to impossible to accidently dislodge in any case!)

Legal and liability-wise; you should probably go with what the rig manufacturer mandates, gray-area notwithstanding.

I hope this helps...

Brett

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"

[CReWLL 0]

The Racer Manual says (or did say) to use the instructions that came with the rig (the manual has a S/N that matches the rig). I do not have a Cypres, I jump a 15 year old Racer and I use a kevlar quick loop. Last week I was in a canopy wrap with a buddy and had his bridle line caught under my reserve cap. I believe that the kevlar loop kept my reserve from deploying into his main. I was able to hook knife his bridle, and everything worked out just fine. The spectra Cypres cord would have (could have) been severed. PS my pilot chute cap is very well seated.

[riggerrob 558]

When I phoned Eric at SSK (American service center for Cypres), he explained that floating loops may not pack as "pretty." In other words, it will be difficult to get precise length on the top loop.

[brettpobastad 0]

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I believe that the kevlar loop kept my reserve from deploying into his main

I agree with you on this statement. I do not know the exact specifications on Kevlar. I do know through experience that Kevlar is stronger, stretches less and is harder to cut or burn. It seems to me that when Kevlar goes bad, it goes bad fast.

It also stiffens when left packed over a long period of time. Several years ago I got a call from Tony Frost at an Arizona DZ. A jumper friend and customer of mine was at the DZ and needed a repack on his Racer. I had last packed it two years previous. According to Tony, when he deployed the reserve on the bench, the pilot chute only halfway deployed! The top Kevlar loop had stiffened to a point where it would not clear the flap grommets without help. I believe this to be in part due to my 'less than efficient' pack job. Ok, my sloppy pack job. (Again, this was nine years ago, or so and I have gotten to the point where Racers are no problem. As a matter of fact, I charge ten dollars less for a Racer reserve repack.) In the years since, I have come across several instances on different Racers (at several different DZ's with different climates) where the Kevlar Quick Loop had stiffened to an unacceptable point. In all these cases, the rig was more than a year out of date. The pilot chutes deployed cleanly on the bench and after exercising (flexing) the loops, all were repacked and put back into service. I wished I had gotten more information from Tony concerning the first instance in Arizona. I do believe that the rig would have functioned properly in an emergency situation. I did inform Jump Shack at the time over the phone but they never got back to me with further information.

I do not have an issue with packing a Racer with a Kevlar Quick Loop, or even installing a Kevlar Quick Loop. I try to educate my customers on the subject and make sure that 120 days is really 120 days! Most Racers I see now have the factory quick loop made with Cypres line and if a new loop is needed due to wear, I will install that type unless a Kevlar Quick Loop is specified. I have packed a Racer with the Airtec made floating quick loop on one occasion. it was just a bit more work to get right. Any thoughts?

"It's only arrogance if you can't back it up"