ps5601 0 #1 July 18, 2005 I had an interesting mal on Saturday, and wandering if there were people out there who have had a similar thing, or can think of a cause. My equipment is a Crossfire2 119 in a Atom Legend 00 with PULL OUT deployment, kill line pilot chute (fairly new, 150ish jumps, good condition) and a Techno 128 reserve, CYPRES, no RSL. After a 46-way, I broke off at 5500ft and tracked until I was just under 3K before pulling. I popped the main pin and threw out the pilot chute as normal. However after a second or so nothing had happened (I have roughly 1000 jumps on this kit, I know how long it should take for the snatch). Thought it could have been a weak throw, but also thought that it wasn't. Either way wobbled my shoulders to clear any burble. Still nothing. Looked over my shoulder to see a fully inflated pilot chute wobbling about a few feet (well about 7 or 8 feet or however long my bridal is) above my back. Another, very experienced jumper also so my pilot chute fully inflated - so yes, it was cocked! I wasn't too impressed, so I chopped and dumped out the reserve around or just under 2K. As I looked up I saw my reserve finishing inflating, and the main was now at line stretch, just in front of the reserve (don't know if it was in or out of the bag as that part was behind my reserve). The main then fell down in front and to my right, and was now out of the bag, but not inflating. Some part of my main risers had snagged my reserve risers (it's possible that the reverse risers PdF use were unable to release fully due to the reserve risers being in the way). My main was now dragging behind me, out of the bag. I pulled the main in a bit to release tension and then threw it away. I was now around 1000ft, so I just did a quick control check, before setting up and landing. Main and free bag landed on the DZ no more than 20m from me (nice spot) and of course I kept the handles. Question: Has anyone ever seen, or heard of a pilot chute in tow using a pull out deployment system when the pilot chute was cocked and inflated and in good condition? If so, what was the cause? For those that don't know the Legend, it doesn't have any real snag points, including corners of reserve trays. Cheers for any help Blue skies Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 July 18, 2005 Yes, for two reasons, and they are the only two I've seen/heard of personaly. 1 the bridle knotted around the P/C, and the other the container was WAY over stuffed.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #3 July 18, 2005 how old is the pilot chute? Size? ZP or F-111? sounds like a container lock that cleared after the reserve deployed Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiler 0 #4 July 18, 2005 I'm his rigger and team mate and I've just finished repacking his reserve. I'm stumped, neither I nor any of the other riggers can work it out. The pilot chute was definitely cocked, in fact we were having a conversation about cocking pilot chutes as we packed before the jump that Paul malled on. There's no damage to any part of the kit. The canopy isn't too tight in the bag and the bag isn't too tight in the container. I made the pilot chute myself and it's fine. There were no knots in the bridle when we retrieved it and even if it had found its way round a flap or something, the angle of all the flaps is such that it'd just slide straight off. We simply cannot find a way to make the bag stay in the container. The container is only a few years old and is in very good condition. It's done about 1000 jumps, about 200 of which were with this combination of canopies in it. A container lock that cleared after the reserve deployed seems to be what must have happened, but what the hell caused the container lock?!www.wingin-it.co.uk Wingin' It wingsuit school Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #5 July 18, 2005 Any grommet issues in the main pack tray? Could the PC bridle have been wrapped around the main D-bag? Could the PC bridle have been wrapped under/around any line stows? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiler 0 #6 July 18, 2005 No, no and no! The grommets are well seated. Paul stows his bridle on top of the bag near the reserve tray and his pilot chute on top of the bag near the bottom of the container. He puts his main bag in at a 45 degree angle. There's no damage anywhere on the entire rig, and I don't know how many times I checked and re-checked the grommets, bridle, lines, bag, flaps etc etc etc. It's really bugging me now! What's worse is that he was lucky to have cleared the entangled main without it inflating and causing problems. If I can't find what caused it this time, how do I know it won't happen again?www.wingin-it.co.uk Wingin' It wingsuit school Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #7 July 18, 2005 I'm not sure if the closing loops on the Atoms are on the bottom flap or the bottom of the reserve tray, but do you think it would have been possible that the bridle somehow was tangled with the closing loop? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiler 0 #8 July 18, 2005 No chance, the closing loop is on top of the top flap, no part of it is on the underside of the flap.www.wingin-it.co.uk Wingin' It wingsuit school Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigSky 2 #9 July 18, 2005 I am just a newbe and cant answer your question but I do have one question about your post. I have been taught not to cut away from a pilot chute in tow and just pull the reserve so if your main inflates it dosent snag the reserve on the way out. Wouldn't it be better to just have two out?“Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, th Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #10 July 18, 2005 QuoteI am just a newbe and cant answer your question but I do have one question about your post. I have been taught not to cut away from a pilot chute in tow and just pull the reserve so if your main inflates it dosent snag the reserve on the way out. Wouldn't it be better to just have two out? I would refer you to this thread and your instructors about that: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1607525;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hemphog 0 #11 July 18, 2005 Did both of your reverse risers fail to release or just one side? Anyway the bridle could have snagged the reserve flap or catch the pin in anyway? There was no sight of part of a riser or toggle seeping out the side of the container for the bridle to catch? I'm jumping a pullout with reverse risers as well and find this a really wacky scenario... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Ya we'll rape the local objects, and maybe do some jumps too!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thepollster 0 #12 July 19, 2005 QuoteI made the pilot chute myself and it's fine. How much experience do you have building pilot chutes? That would be the first place I'd look, seeing as there are some seemingly minor issues in construction that can cause problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ps5601 0 #13 July 19, 2005 In all honesty I am not entirely sure if both failed to release. I know I had my left lines going across my neck and around the front of the right reserve risers (as the main had fallen in front and to the right of the reserve before being dragged behind me), however I'm not sure if they cleared themself. I grabbed lines behind and to the right of me, pulled them in to release tension, gave it all a good tug and threw it away. However , if the cause of the hang up was that the reverse risers were unable to flip through due to the proximity of my reserve risers, but the main was in front of the reserve, but not out of the bag enough to deploy, I must have had a pretty much simultaneous main/reserve deployment, with the main leaving a fraction before the reserve (so it can get in front), but not long enough for the risers to get clear of the reserve. As for snagging on the reserve flap, or pin I don't quite follow. The Atom is pretty snag free, and I saw my bridal at full extension with the pilot chute inflated behind me. The Atom also has secondary riser flaps (that run down the side of the reserve tray), so there can be no brake or toggle showing. As for to chop or not - there are a thousand debates on this. However given what would have been an extremely slow deployment of a fairly HP canopy that had partially wrapped around my reserve lines - I'm glad I did. For me personally, once the main deployment has been initiated, if there is a problem, chop before the reserve pull. Other people do different, well that's up to them. Blue skies Paul Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiler 0 #14 July 19, 2005 QuoteHow much experience do you have building pilot chutes? I'm a BPA Parachute Rigger. We've got a slightly different system to the FAA one, we don't differentiate between minor and major repairs. Advanced Packers can pack reserves but don't do any machine stitching. Parachute Rigger is the next qualification up, they can do any rigging that's not last line of defence, so they can patch a main but not a reserve, same with replacing a line set etc. They can't work on the harness or reserve unless supervised by an Advanced Rigger, who can do anything to a rig. Beyond that is Rigger Examiner, they can sign people up for new ratings. I've listed the ratings in order, and you need all the previous ones before going for the next one up. I'm a full time rigger, I work for the Army Parachute Association and look after their 90 sport and tandem rigs on my own, plus many private ones. I've made a lot of pilot chutes. I've inspected this one over and over since the mal and it's absolutely fine. I've given it to a couple of other riggers including John, my colleague who does the same job as me on a different set of 90-odd rigs and is very experienced. He says there's no question of the pilot chute being at fault. Thanks for all the input so far from everyone, but nobody yet has come up with anything we haven't already thought of, and we haven't come up with anything that's remotely possible to have happened www.wingin-it.co.uk Wingin' It wingsuit school Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sprtdth 0 #15 July 20, 2005 I'm sure you've checked, but has the kill line shrunk a little?CRW Skies Frank CRW Diva #58 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smiler 0 #16 July 20, 2005 Quotehas the kill line shrunk a little? No it hasn't. If you hold the pilot chute by the apex (where the bridle meets the mesh), the base (where the toggle would be if it wasn't pull-out!) hangs an inch below the hem (where the netting and ZP join).www.wingin-it.co.uk Wingin' It wingsuit school Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexeiYau 0 #17 July 21, 2005 Have you tried testing stuff while he was actually wearing the rig with an arch on, when no ones wearing the rig the main tray and the reserve tray can bend away from each other so it would always seem loose when its not closed. the only thing i can think of is it was tight somehow, but tight enough for 100lb not to pull it out? unlikely. i dunno then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
