weegegirl 2 #101 June 11, 2004 Quotei have done nothing dangerous to date. false. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #102 June 11, 2004 Guys... lets let this thread die. I've even asked for it to be locked from a Mod. There is nothing that is going to be solved by arguing on this board anymore. This thread has moved way beyond its usefull life and is just angering people right now. Chanes for education are being offered, we will have to see if any positive results come out of these chances. If the opprotunity for improving skills and becoming a safer jumper are not taken then I guess we can all read about it later right?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #103 June 11, 2004 How about telling me where his home DZ is so I don't accidently go skydiving there. I don't want to be in the air with these clowns. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeedToJump 0 #104 June 11, 2004 QuoteHow about telling me where his home DZ From his profile: "Home DZ: SGC" Ted - I have a couple of honest questions for you: 1) Why do you think that people on this board are telling you to slow down and that you're dangerous? Do you think it is because they are trying to hold you back or that they are concerned about you? 2) What have you done / seen to think that you learn quicker than others? 3) Why do you think that you cannot hurt yourself? Seriously, I am genuinely curious and want to understand your views on this.Wind Tunnel and Skydiving Coach http://www.ariperelman.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #105 June 11, 2004 Quotelets let this thread die Agreed, perhaps a new post should be started on how we can get get canopy skills into the ratings. Canopies have changed a lot in the last 10-12 yrs. heims had a great post which was swallowed up by the emotion of the other posts. Hey Bill, can you get us back on track? Maybe move heims to a thread of her own for better focus.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,433 #106 June 11, 2004 >There is nothing that is going to be solved by arguing on this board anymore. Agreed; let's try to keep it on track. Talking about wing loadings and canopy training is useful, but continuing on the "I'm safe/no you're not" tangent will get it locked. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
psychoswooper 2 #107 June 11, 2004 OK everybody calm down please....I recieved an email telling me that Brian was pissing everybody off, so I thought I had better jump on here & see what was going on. Yes, he was jumping a Jedei 136 at 100 jumps. After lots of training , specialized advice & much critiquing of his first dozen jumps. All of his training jumps (AFF etc) were on Safires. He has always had exceptional canopy control & has never done anything unsafe....the stupidest thing he has ever done is getting on this forum & giving people the wriong impression. Did he mention that he weighs in at about 140 soaking wet? Yes we may be a smaller (not as small as some people think) DZ. He does not have to go to Deland or ZHills for training...one of our best kept secrets is that we have some of the Worlds best instructors right here. Several of our jumpers are Pro Swwop Qualified, and regularly offer good advice to novices. We have DZ policies regarding wing-loading. 100 to go 1.1, 200 jumps to go 1.2 . 300 jumps to go 1.3 400 jumps to go 1.4 after 500 jumps you can jump anything you want...however you are sunject to loosing that option if I see anything stupid or dangerous. I am the DZO & I can and will ground anybody from jumping anything I feel is unsafe. At the same time, I try to balance that with not holding anybody back if they have the abibilty to perform above the average joe. Nobody wants to see an accident on my DZ any less than me. I have over 7000 jumps. I know a little bit about skydiving and canopy flying. My next in command has over 4500. jumps & several other of our Instructors have over 2000 jumps. Collectively we control what people are jumping. On rare occasions we will let somebody load higher than our quidelines IF they have demonstrated good judgement, ability & skill. In spite of the impression you may have gotten, Brian posseses all of these qualities.. Some people just come across the wrong way in wriitten format- he's one of those. If you actualy sat down & talked with him, you would probably feel a lot better. It doesn't matter who recommends what canopy to whom...it doesn't mean we will let them jump it here unless we feel that it's not a problem. Nuff said 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #108 June 11, 2004 Cindy, Thanks for jumping in. I almost forgot about Brian, but I figured when he got quiet that he was listening. As I mentioned to him, listen to those with more experience - by far you have more than me. So I will easily believe what you have to say in this scenario. Thank you for posting and bringing some sanity to this._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #109 June 11, 2004 daskal is the coach."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #110 June 11, 2004 this thread was about landing canopies safely. i think that most students can land 1.0 -1.2 WL canopies safely. i will continue to swoop on my own terms and on a learning progression that i can be comfortable with. competitions are out for right now, but not forever."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #111 June 11, 2004 Who is Brian... the only guy that has really been pissing folks off (Other than me of course) is this tcnelson guy. Read his stuff and please tell us what you think."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #112 June 11, 2004 1) i think that early on in this thread, people started to blow things out of proportion after i agreed with daskal about students being able to jump canopies with WL'ings higher that one. i agreed with him because i did and i was just fine. i think that they are concerned but overzealous. like i said before, i've never endangered anyone. i say that because if i had, i would have heard about before this thread popped up. i have also fueled the fire because i dish out what i get as far as sarcasm and rudeness. 2) i have been a quick learner my whole life with everything including academics, sports, sniping, parachuting, whatever comes my way. 3)i don't think that i can't hurt myself and i never said otherwise. i can hurt myself as easily as the next person but i almost always make good decisions in regard to my progression (except for one time when i was skateboarding in front of a hot girl when i was about 15). As much as people here disagree with me, hardly any of them know me. even the ones that have met me seem to not know me as they are fabricating situations in their heads about what i've done under a canopy. i never said that i was invincible. all i can say is that i'm very confident in my abilities and all of the decisions that i have made to date in regard to skydiving have been ok by my DZO."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #113 June 11, 2004 Quote recieved an email telling me that Brian was pissing everybody off, so I thought I had better jump on here & see what was going on. Yes, he was jumping a Jedei 136 at 100 jumps. After lots of training , specialized advice & much critiquing of his first dozen jumps. All of his training jumps (AFF etc) were on Safires. He has always had exceptional canopy control & has never done anything unsafe....the stupidest thing he has ever done is getting on this forum & giving people the wriong impression. Did he mention that he weighs in at about 140 soaking wet? Yes we may be a smaller (not as small as some people think) DZ. He does not have to go to Deland or ZHills for training...one of our best kept secrets is that we have some of the Worlds best instructors right here. Several of our jumpers are Pro Swwop Qualified, and regularly offer good advice to novices. We have DZ policies regarding wing-loading. 100 to go 1.1, 200 jumps to go 1.2 . 300 jumps to go 1.3 400 jumps to go 1.4 after 500 jumps you can jump anything you want...however you are sunject to loosing that option if I see anything stupid or dangerous. I am the DZO & I can and will ground anybody from jumping anything I feel is unsafe. At the same time, I try to balance that with not holding anybody back if they have the abibilty to perform above the average joe. Nobody wants to see an accident on my DZ any less than me. I have over 7000 jumps. I know a little bit about skydiving and canopy flying. My next in command has over 4500. jumps & several other of our Instructors have over 2000 jumps. Collectively we control what people are jumping. On rare occasions we will let somebody load higher than our quidelines IF they have demonstrated good judgement, ability & skill. In spite of the impression you may have gotten, Brian posseses all of these qualities.. Some people just come across the wrong way in wriitten format- he's one of those. If you actualy sat down & talked with him, you would probably feel a lot better. It doesn't matter who recommends what canopy to whom...it doesn't mean we will let them jump it here unless we feel that it's not a problem. Nuff said Kennedy received one-one pilot instruction in a specially refurbished aircraft at Flight Safety International. The best instruction money can buy. He bought a high performance airplane. He and his two passengers died. Just the other day, a pilot that got his PPSEL license 30-days ago and bought Beechcraft Bonanza is now dead. Money, the best training money can buy, the best equipment doesn’t replace experience, skill, and good judgement based on experience. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #114 June 11, 2004 brian = daskal,the coach_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #115 June 11, 2004 Quotebrian = daskal,the coach Well I knew it was not you pissing people off... But daskal has not said anything for like 2 pages. Why don't people learn?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerm 0 #116 June 11, 2004 IF you make it a couple of years in this sport, it'll be interesting to see what kind of advice you're giving people after a couple of broken bones, or seeing some friends bounce, or both. Neat thing about this forum is that it keeps everything. We can't read what ron was really like when he was in your stage, but i'm sure we'll all get some good laughs out of how you used to be if you live that long. Good, luck, and i'll make sure when i visit SGC that i can keep my camera on for your landings... REALTV pays. Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #117 June 11, 2004 QuoteWe can't read what ron was really like when he was in your stage, but i'm sure we'll all get some good laughs out of how you used to be if you live that long. I was a lot like him...But not so much with canopies...I liked to pull low. I'm amazed I am still here...It took two BIG guys at the DZ to walk up to me after a low pull (Like 700 feet or so) and ask me, "You have a problem deploying?" After I told them no...They told me, "Oh, OK....If we see you do that again...We are going to kick your ass...OK? And if you pull low and bounce...Well we are going to piss on your body while it is still warm....Have a nice jump". I got a Stiletto 120 at 1.4 with 370 jumps. I wanted a 97...But that was 10 years ago and that required me lying to John Leblanc at PD to get the 120 out of PD. Of course everyone told me I was going to hook it in...I hooked that fucker in on jump #3 on it. Gee they were right, and I was wrong....Who would have thought? Oh thats right they KNEW I was going to fuck up, Only I thought I would be ok."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #118 June 11, 2004 Quotei'll make sure when i visit SGC that i can keep my camera on for your landings... REALTV pays. it's a win-win scenario! either i get good video for the year end or you get paid. be a good chap and give a piece of the pie to Jim and Lee for the Christmas party."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #119 June 11, 2004 Quoteobviously, i meant flying a canopy (the skill aspect) is an individual sport. you're right though, it is important to not bang into other individuals in the sky! Hi TCnelson Not trying to gang up on youBut it's not just the people in the sky or walking back to the landing area that can be physically injured by a hot dog canopy jocky. Everyone on the dropzone will be adversely affected seeing someone get "hurt". Of course we won't wait until the ambulance hauls the injured jumper away befor we get on the next load. But seeing someone get hurt isn't fun and some of us will have nightmares that night or longer. Of course we'll continue to jump because we have learned over time not to do that dumb stuff. Your family will be much worse off than we are and never usnderstand why. To most of us you'll just be another statistic to much to fast, know it all etc. Your family and friends will miss you. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #120 June 11, 2004 believe me, i'm doing my best to make sure that no one will have to miss me. hell, i just finished my physical chemistry sequence today so, i definitely want to get my money out of that before i fullfill the dz.com elders' prophecies.thank you for your early condolences though... ps. what you call dumb, i call challenging and fun."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #121 June 11, 2004 I think you are right on and should not question yourself. If it were my DZ and I was renting the gear ir selling it, a person with 90 jumps gets a wingloading of 1:1, no questions asked. Personally, I think our statistics of fatalities under perfectly good functioning canopies would dwindle if there actually was a BSR which controlled for wingloadings just like with licenses. If you don't own an A license, technically you cannot jump in winds stronger than 14 mph. I think with 90 jumps, you should not be able to rent or buy gear which is more heavily wingloaded than 1:1 and that wingloading is a range, say less than 1:1 to 1.2:1 which allows for some freedom of choice or a little flexibility with wind consideration. I know some people will disagree with me but I think people should be weaned into an elliptical canopy using the manufacturer's guidelines as a "guide" and downsizing should be a gradual process based on skill and experience.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #122 June 12, 2004 believe me, i'm doing my best to make sure that no one will have to miss me. hell, i just finished my physical chemistry sequence today so, i definitely want to get my money out of that before i fullfill the dz.com elders' prophecies. *** I have to say that after this flamefest, I'm impressed that you've retained a sense of humor. Just so you know, I didn't, and won't ever make such a prophecy. I just think it's in bad taste. And I actually think the odds are in your favor. I know skydivers that I would bet are far less competent than you with well over 1000 jumps. So you'll probably be fine. I am tired of all the new canopy pilots who think they possess some innate talent that the rest of us have to work for, but I will probably just have to get used to it. They are obviously not going away. And ironically, as much as Daskal expressed disdain for A license holders' canopy selections being regulated, he unknowingly does more than anyone else to bring such regulation into existence. I don't know what you fly, as nothing is listed in your profile, so I can't assess your canopy selection. I don't think you'd care about my opinion anyway. But please, just seriously ask yourself the question that I put to you previously. Because if you continue to jump for years to come, hear me now, and believe me later, you will find yourself in a sketchy situation under canopy. It may be during a sunset load after a bad spot, it may be at the the WFFC with 70 other canopies in the air, it may be after a bailout from an aircraft emergency, or just an accidental low pull. But when it happens you will have only the survival skills that you trained to have, and the square footage that you chose to have over your head. I know it's boring compared to swooping, but shoot accuracy often. Practice flaring from 1/2 brakes, flat turns, flare turns, and anything else about low speed flight that I might be failing to mention. Learn it, know it, live it. And as Yoda said," mind what you have learned, save you it can." Good luck, and try not to take out anyone else along the way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #123 June 12, 2004 i fly a sabre2 at 1.2 and i love it. it's really an all-around good canopy. it has treated me well in all aspects that i have explored thus far. i always have a pretty good sense of humor. it's important to remember that no matter how bad it seems, someone has it worse (i told myself that alot in airassault school Quotetry not to take out anyone else along the way.willco...please don't take me out either...my life is just starting to look good!"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daskal 1 #124 June 12, 2004 Let this go dude, nobodys gonna get anywhere with this thread any more. Once someone wished death on another skydiver, it should have ended right there. There is nothing more anyone can learn from this discussion. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tcnelson 1 #125 June 12, 2004 everybody is calm here das...i was replying to murps' rational post."Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
