Suicide...

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

I'm not trying to start a fight. I'm just saying what he said was dumb. To me personally it came off as pretty judgmental. People like him are the reason I keep it in. It's not even worth trying to explain anything to people who don't know what its like and become all judgmental when you mention it.

[virgin-burner 1]

maybe its time to start a new group, the SS, Suicidal Skydivers, jump small canopies at ridicilous high wingloadings n'stuff..

yea, i'm being sarcastic..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

Quote

maybe its time to start a new group, the SS, Suicidal Skydivers, jump small canopies at ridicilous high wingloadings n'stuff..

yea, i'm being sarcastic..

And fly mach 1's with only a handful of wingsuit jumps?

[virgin-burner 1]

hey, its actually two handfuls.. almost!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[skybytch 259]

Quote

maybe its time to start a new group, the SS, Suicidal Skydivers, jump small canopies at ridicilous high wingloadings n'stuff..

But that leaves out those of us who've been two pills away from the great beyond but still hate pain enough to jump lightly loaded conservative canopies.

[masterblaster72 0]

Quote

Therapy is available that can help depression. I know this can be expensive. There are a lot of crappy therapists out there. Don't give up on this.

So true -- I've been to many a crappy therapist and I can say first hand that they can make things worse. If anyone feels after many tries that their therapist isn't helping, it's time to move on and look for the next (kind of like dating).

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[steve1 5]

Some people, particularly mental health professionals are down on self help books. I'm not sure why. There are some good self help books out there. Some are better than others. Some are written by clinical psychologists. Find what might work for you.

An important thing to remember is that there are few quick fixes in mental health work. Particularly if you are trying to do this on your own.

There are many books geared for professional therapists on the market. Many have too many big words. Find one you can read and understand. There are entire sections in book stores now devoted to self help.

There are many relaxation, and visualization techniques that can learn. You don't have to pay someone a hundred dollars an hour to teach you these. They aren't the total answer. I know this is an over simplication for what ails you, but most therapists I know, subscribe to these when needed. They can help a lot when battling depression or anger.

But, if your life is in danger....Please don't go the self help route! It's kind of like putting a bandaid on a serious wound. There's a good chance it isn't going to be enough to save your life....

[Nataly 38]

Quote

I guess i don't understand why your lifeis so shitty ?

See, I get that a lot. Especially since I'm a perfectionist and an achiever.. I mean, I'm in great shape, I'm healthy, I have a great family, great friends, a successful career... On the face of things, I have everything I need (and more), so what is shitty about my life? And people like me, so why do I feel like I'm unpleasant and un-lovable? I can see why this doesn't make sense on the face of it.

Part of depression means that no matter what is or isn't going on in your life, you just feel miserable - nothing cheers you up.

There are so many things that I keep thinking about that bring me down when I'm feeling depressed. I focus on all the bad things in my life and don't seem to be able to see the good stuff. Or I see the good stuff, but it doesn't make me feel better.

It's kind of hard to explain..

For me, last year was especially hard.. First, I was upset about my job.. I left my old company to do this "amazing" role with this huge multinational brand.. It was going to be a sexy, strategic, challenging role. Instead, it was the worst admin role I'd ever done. Then I got promoted, but no one was hired to replace me in my previous capacity, so I was still doing all the shitty admin, just a hell of a lot more of it.

Then my partner of 4 years - the man I thought I would be marrying any day now - told me he didn't love me anymore. That I was making him miserable and he wanted me to move out of the house we bought together.

Then I had the burden of paying out more than I was earning, to help pay for the joint mortgage *and* my own rent / bills.

Then I failed all my accounting exams twice, whilst my colleagues passed their exams.

Then my boss started putting me between him and his colleague (they hate each-other), making work even more awkward and unpleasant.

My investments had to be pulled; my paycheck didn't cover my bills; I had to cut back on everything including food...

I started having panick attacks. Then I started having panick attacks at work.

I lost my appetite and lost a bunch of weight - note that I was already slim & couldn't afford to lose weight..

Blah, blah, blah..

Thing is, I might easily have been just as depressed if everything was absolutely fantastic in my life... Feeling down isn't necessarily linked with something "bad" in your life. But it makes you feel like your life is shitty, even if it isn't.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[legalart 0]

Steve not to you in particular but to all responding to this thread. Listen to "Angel" by Sarah McLaclan. which was written in reponse to the suicide of someone I think - but am unsure - was a friend.

This subject, as previously stated appears in this forum every six months or so. The comments seem less negative each time the subject is debated. It's hard not to share my personal experience, but I'll leave that to those who personally know the pain.

Maybe those of us who have been around for awhile like myself, Jim and Lisa have seen, experienced and tried to help and eventually lost the friends and loved ones we tried so desperately to hold onto.

Sorry for the downer post but as someone said above this sport seems to appeal to people with these issues. Watch out for your friends and loved ones and implore them to hang on.

[SkyjunkySean 0]

I miss scotty everyday man n even more on the weekends. I am still numb, and yes I admit evenmadat himsometimes, but mainly Ijust miss him. Sorry bout your other bud in seattle man. rough way to start 09

[SkyjunkySean 0]

There is a reallygood book about suicide. I too hadvery very strong feelings about it, until Iread the book. It's called. A Fierce Goodbye. I can't remeber the author, but it did help makes sense out of waht seemed senseless. good luck.

[mdrejhon 8]

Nataly,

I just wanted to reply to your post and thank you for taking the time to write about yourself. Some of us can relate into how a miserable situation gets compounded by yet another layer of miserable situation, and it keeps stacking on, and on, and on, and then it comes to the point where anybody decent would succumb, or somewhere close to it.

At this point, I just want to give you a hug. It's all I know how to do...

[virgin-burner 1]

Quote

Quote

maybe its time to start a new group, the SS, Suicidal Skydivers, jump small canopies at ridicilous high wingloadings n'stuff..

But that leaves out those of us who've been two pills away from the great beyond but still hate pain enough to jump lightly loaded conservative canopies.

you then still have the large wingsuit-option!?

oh, and there's still BASEjumping!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[chiquita24 0]

Nataly,

Just wanted to post and say I've been following what you write and just want to give you a big hug too! I admire your strength in being so open and able to write about it on here!
I too have been through a lot and have had my ups and downs, but I'm not comfortable enough to write about my story on here.
I wish you the best of luck!

[Iceburner 0]

i had a friend of mine committ suicide....in fact, he was a pretty good friend....the part that hurt the most was the fact he blamed me for his problems, and in his note said he didn't want me to attend his funeral because i was datin his ex. to this day i blame myself for his death, and wish i would never have made him suffer so. he had threatened other x's with suicide....however when i dated one of his x's, he followed through with his threat. even though we are now getting married, feb. 20th is always going to be a rough month.

further, i lost a good friend exactly 6 months to the day in a skydiving accident....nobody knows why he went in with a no-pull...i've always looked at it as my friend getting back at me for causing him pain. nothing was more depressing than the days/weeks that followed johns death. however i still feel there is nothing more selfish than suicide.

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

Quote

i had a friend of mine committ suicide....in fact, he was a pretty good friend....the part that hurt the most was the fact he blamed me for his problems, and in his note said he didn't want me to attend his funeral because i was datin his ex. to this day i blame myself for his death, and wish i would never have made him suffer so. he had threatened other x's with suicide....however when i dated one of his x's, he followed through with his threat. even though we are now getting married, feb. 20th is always going to be a rough month.

further, i lost a good friend exactly 6 months to the day in a skydiving accident....nobody knows why he went in with a no-pull...i've always looked at it as my friend getting back at me for causing him pain. nothing was more depressing than the days/weeks that followed johns death. however i still feel there is nothing more selfish than suicide.

Once again. Please explain to me how your happiness or the deceased's family's happiness is more important than his/hers.

It's comments like these that make me, not mad, but sad. It's sad that people are so judgmental and that they think their happiness is more important than that of the person who takes their life. [shakes head]

[Muenkel 0]

There's one thing I would like to add to this thread. Most of you probably know this but I don't think it has been mentioned. There is a difference between situational depression and clinical depression.

I would venture to guess that most people have experienced situational depression at some point in their life. It usually occurs when someone is under enormous stress and it seems like shitty things are just piling up. I've experienced this along with post-traumatic stress disorder. The good news about situational depression is that it is much more easily treated and does not stay with you for life.

It is common for people to give folks with clinical depression advice as if they have situational depression. Huge mistake.

Clinical depression is the tough one. Not being a therapist or doctor, I will give a layman's description. Clinical depression is in fact an illness. Sometimes there seems to be no explanation. It can be linked to a chemical imbalance. It tends to be a chronic condition that may last an entire lifetime.

In the case of situational depression, you should seek help if it is consuming your life, considering suicide or you just can't seem to overcome it on your own.

In the case of clinical depression, professional help must be sought in order to improve the quality of life.

A trained therapist/psychologist/psychiatrist is your best source to diagnose whether you're suffering from situational or clinical depression.

What makes situational and clinical so complicated is that everyone's makeup, coping skills and life experiences are different.

What many people may not realize is that survivors of either type of depression tend to be the most strongest people you'd ever meet.

_________________________________________
Chris

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

Quote

however i still feel there is nothing more selfish than suicide.

Once again. Please explain to me how your happiness or the deceased's family's happiness is more important than his/hers. I think the dictionary definition of 'selfish' is often elastic in this situation ("concerned chiefly or only with yourself and your advantage to the exclusion of others"), and it does appear to clearly define suicide for a great many people in one way or another. Even in the cases where the suicidal doesn't even have any anger at other people but only upon himself/herself (like my John's case -- a different John, the one I was referring to), it can be argued that not even thinking about others at all, may denote selfishness.

But anyway, out of respect, I've never used that word to define John because he wrote such a sad but friendly goodbye letter to everyone he knew -- it didn't even contain any bad words to anyone. In this case, the suicide letter was ironically very unselfishly written. He even said genuine good words about his last few ex's! Even friends that got lost and couldn't be bothered to help him, but somehow he understood he scared them away (he did) out of delirium of his low situation, not too different spiritually from people such as Nataly's (and in some ways, even worse; he had a really long way to fall). Yes, it is ironic to have such a sad (yet friendly) suicide letter that looked unselfish, yet the act itself, is generally considered matching the dictionary definition of 'selfish', technically. Going by the Merriam-Webster New Collegiate Dictionary (9th or 10th), I find it hard to disagree that the word often fits a person in a suicide case, even though I do not like to use the word to describe my friend.

But that's not my reply to your text exactly...
My reply is to address my opinion: Iceburner's comment understandably only commented on the selfishness itself; not a "he shouldn't have been selfish" (although that is often automatically implied when someone says "X is selfish" in suicide, which thus automatically imply family's happiness). But clearly, that isn't Iceburner's intent.

Although Iceburner's John may have harboured anger at others and my John did not seem to show it at least on his surface (rather, he was more too focussed how disastorous his life was). One may never know the entire spectrum of feelings though...

I searched and I can find no other post that Iceburner made, that specifically referred to the suicidal persons' own family/friends happiness, in the context of using the word selfish. I interpret and understand the comment differently than you do based on my personal experience, as explained above. The word selfish actually can be interpreted in so many ways, and differently for different cases.

[nigel99 151]

Quote

Quote

i had a friend of mine committ suicide....in fact, he was a pretty good friend....the part that hurt the most was the fact he blamed me for his problems, and in his note said he didn't want me to attend his funeral because i was datin his ex. to this day i blame myself for his death, and wish i would never have made him suffer so. he had threatened other x's with suicide....however when i dated one of his x's, he followed through with his threat. even though we are now getting married, feb. 20th is always going to be a rough month.

further, i lost a good friend exactly 6 months to the day in a skydiving accident....nobody knows why he went in with a no-pull...i've always looked at it as my friend getting back at me for causing him pain. nothing was more depressing than the days/weeks that followed johns death. however i still feel there is nothing more selfish than suicide.

Once again. Please explain to me how your happiness or the deceased's family's happiness is more important than his/hers.

It's comments like these that make me, not mad, but sad. It's sad that people are so judgmental and that they think their happiness is more important than that of the person who takes their life. [shakes head]

I think that you have accidentally defined "selfish" in your response with the comment "Please explain to me how your happiness or the deceased's family's happiness is more important than his/hers". The very fact that someone feels that ending their life is important to THEM is by definition selfish. The problem is that we are all hugely generalising and that will ALWAYS be unfair to those being spoken of.
There are people that I have known that felt that suicide was helping the people they loved by removing a burden - that can't be defined as selfish. There is one instance where the individual was so self absorbed in trying to get what would make them happy at the expense of everyone else that was extremely selfish.

At the end of the day I believe that it is irrelevant whether the person was selfish or not - people who commit or attempt suicide are mentally ill and require help in some shape or form. In cases of emotional distress I feel that anyone who commits suicide has lost the battle - and that they have been let down by themselves and "us" the society that surrounds them, however I can't see suicide to end a terminal illness in the same light.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[steve1 5]

Nataly,
You sound a lot like my daughter. She was valedictorian of her senior class, a real achiever. She is beautiful. She has everything going for her. At times she feels the world would be better off without her. She now needs medication to stay alive.

I know I'm not being a very good listener right now, by spouting advice. But There is a way out of the dark place you are in now. Don't give up. One thing that helps me is knowing that somehow, some way, things are going to get better.

There may not be a lot you can do about your present situation, that you have not already done. If there isn't anything further you can do to change things, it's important to rely on hope, and don't discount support from family and friends. I would try a medication. Be good to yourself, you deserve that.

I didn't know Deuce very well. He seemed like a great guy on these forums. There were times when I could sense his depression. I'm sure it was eating him alive from the inside out. I read where he too was Valedictorian of his senior class. He too was probably a perfectionist. Don't let this take your life, like it did his!....

[LuckyMcSwervy 0]

One of my best friends, one who I loved so, so much, killed himself by shooting himself in the chest on the front lawn of our church, next to the St. Francis of Assisi statue on October 1, 2002. It was a beautiful day. The sun was shining, birds were singing, temperature was nice. Who would want to die on such a beautiful day? I was sitting in my office in Trenton when my friend Terri Tully called me to ask if I've talked to my husband Scott yet.... I asked why..... she said "you're in Trenton?" (an hour and a half from home) .... I said "what the fuck is going on??"... she said "sweetie, johnny-o just killed himself".... I almost died myself at that point from a broken heart.

His name was John Oliva. He was a New Jersey State Trooper who was going through a rough time professionally. I still can't think of him on that day and not cry my eyes out. If I wasn't dating my future husband when John and I met, we would've been together. We used to joke about that all the time, not in front of my guy though. They were police officers together at a local department before Johnny-O left to go to another municipality and then on to his dream of becoming a member of the New Jersey State Police.

I could sit here all day and tell you how awesome he is and how much everyone loved him.... but I think you guys already understand losing someone and keeping their memory alive in any way you can.

The very last time I saw Johnny-O alive, we were in the parking lot of Blockbuster and he came running across the parking lot and practically jumped through my car door window to hug me and give kisses. It was awesome, but he was always like that.

When we were saying goodbye after the normal "call me this weekend, we'll all go out for dinner" plan making he looked me straight in the eyes, stared with those beautiful blue eyes for what seemed like forever, and said "I love you so much. You're amazing". I told him "I love you too, Johnny-O!! See you soon! Ju-Jitsu!" (that's how he always "signed off". We laughed, smiled, waved and I drove away.... That was a few days before he did it...

God, I miss him so, so much. He's bured in a lovely plot right in town... I stop by and see him once in a while, sit there and talk to him because I know he's listening... I laugh at the little momentos other friends leave at his grave.

I keep a picture from my wedding day on my desk (still, even after my divorce) because Johnny's in it standing next to me on the happiest day of my life. He had that picture in his home on prominent display and requested it be displayed at his funeral.... to hear the stories after his death of how much he loved Scott and I.... it tears me up....

He would call us and other friends at 11:30pm just to see if we had laundry detergent he could borrow just because he wanted to see us, not that he truly needed it.... LOL.

Man, I wasn't expecting to write all of this. Sorry....
I just can't write anymore because I'll end up ripping open old wounds that have kinda started to heal.... and it took a long, long time for that.....

Ju-Jitsu, Johnny-O!! You are sooooo loved.

Always be kinder than you feel.

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

i had a friend of mine committ suicide....in fact, he was a pretty good friend....the part that hurt the most was the fact he blamed me for his problems, and in his note said he didn't want me to attend his funeral because i was datin his ex. to this day i blame myself for his death, and wish i would never have made him suffer so. he had threatened other x's with suicide....however when i dated one of his x's, he followed through with his threat. even though we are now getting married, feb. 20th is always going to be a rough month.

further, i lost a good friend exactly 6 months to the day in a skydiving accident....nobody knows why he went in with a no-pull...i've always looked at it as my friend getting back at me for causing him pain. nothing was more depressing than the days/weeks that followed johns death. however i still feel there is nothing more selfish than suicide.

Once again. Please explain to me how your happiness or the deceased's family's happiness is more important than his/hers.

It's comments like these that make me, not mad, but sad. It's sad that people are so judgmental and that they think their happiness is more important than that of the person who takes their life. [shakes head]

I think that you have accidentally defined "selfish" in your response with the comment "Please explain to me how your happiness or the deceased's family's happiness is more important than his/hers". The very fact that someone feels that ending their life is important to THEM is by definition selfish. The problem is that we are all hugely generalising and that will ALWAYS be unfair to those being spoken of.
There are people that I have known that felt that suicide was helping the people they loved by removing a burden - that can't be defined as selfish. There is one instance where the individual was so self absorbed in trying to get what would make them happy at the expense of everyone else that was extremely selfish.

At the end of the day I believe that it is irrelevant whether the person was selfish or not - people who commit or attempt suicide are mentally ill and require help in some shape or form. In cases of emotional distress I feel that anyone who commits suicide has lost the battle - and that they have been let down by themselves and "us" the society that surrounds them, however I can't see suicide to end a terminal illness in the same light.

Right there you kind of prove my point. "...Make them happy at the expense of everyone else..." You are basically saying that it was selfish for that person to end his/her life because there were people that still wanted him/her alive.

[Nataly 38]

Oh wow.. I'm sure it took a lot for you to share that.

I grew up feeling really ashamed of my depression, because everyone calls it a mental illness, or a chemical imbalance... There is a remarkably large segment of the population who is very judgmental about depression.. They seem to think you can't hold a job or be reliable or even that you're a bit on the crazy side.

I remember the first time I owned up to my feelings to someone outside my family... It was a therapist (my parents forced me to go), and he made me feel like a freak. Years later, I admitted to having had treatments for depression on a job application - it never occurred to me that it would stunt my chances of any promotion for years thereafter. It was brought up like 3 years later, even though the medical documents I had filled out were supposed to be confidential!!!

I'm not really entirely convinced depression is always a mental illness. Much like I'm not really convinced about a lot of "crazies" they used to lock up in the victorian ages, because they suffered from "hysteria". I think it's fair to say that even the experts don't fully understand "why" (otherwise, wouldn't there be a cure?!!).

What can make things hard to understand is that lots of people lead a "double-life".. On the outside, they are successful, ambitious, popular, cheerful people.. On the inside, they feel empty, rotten, and they don't look after their well-being..

I think it's important to remember that appearances aren't always representative of how a person *feels*. And how a person feels could be very far removed from reality (ie: feeling alone, feeling unlikeable, feeling inadequate and feeling unhappy about their "shitty" life).. It's the thought-process that is negative and unpleasant - not necessarily the circumstances.

Some people may not be able to relate to how painful it is to have sustained feelings of depression.. They could more easily understand ending one's life due to a painful physical illness, but not a painful state of mind. The trouble is that maybe some people kill themselves in an act of selfishness; some may kill themselves to obtain relief from years of suffering; some may kill themselves to remove a perceived burden on others. It's quite hard to truly understand someone else's point of view, so being judgmental about it is a little bit unfair.

Thanks to everyone for sharing. I feel like it's only just at the start of 2009 where things started to turn around a bit for me - I think before then I wouldn't have had the energy to even discuss these things. But I've long ago stopped being ashamed of being unhappy - it's just not my fault, or a "failing" on my part.

At the end of the day, you just don't know what someone else is going through, so
a - it's not fair to judge, and
b - it's not fair to beat yourself up for something that someone else did to themselves

Edit to say: thanks for the hugs

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[steve1 5]

Nataly,
Depression is nothing to be ashamed of. There are litterally millions of us out there. It's probably smart not to tell most people, because they don't have much knowledge on the subject and some will hold it against you.

So what is mental illness? For many it is a very normal reaction to a really crappy situation. Child abuse and neglect screws up millions of kids every year. Some are able to bounce back but many are scarred for life. It's not there fault.

A soldier who sees his best friends killed in front of him may not be the same after. He may be haunted with that for the rest of his life. Depression is probably going to be part of his future. It's not his fault he is like that.

If you have a chemical imbalance, it is something you are born with. It's not your fault.

We do our best to hide it, but others can still see something isn't right. Sometimes it's too hard to hide.

At any rate, you deserve a better life. You don't have to continue living in the darkness. Even a medical doctor can prescribe an anti-depressant. Tell him you are very stressed out, and want to try an SSRI medication. You may not experience any serious side affects. Some people take anti-depressants for other reasons than depression. If that doesn't work try a different medication. There is a way out of the hole you are in now....

[DescensionX 0]

I've been reading this thread with great interest. Thanks to all that have shared their stories. I can't pretend to understand, since I have never experienced the pain. I do research in the pharmaceutical industry, and also have an interest in depression, since I know so many people - friends and family - that have it.

I saw an interesting show the other night on PBS. The doctor was talking about how his clinic does SPECT brain imaging on thousands of people's brains. The SPECT imaging allows them to "see brain function" by imaging metabolic activity, and they can see what parts of the brain are functioning highly, and what parts are not, and so on. Brains from all sorts of problems and also normal brains have been scanned. The thousands of brain images they have taken from people who have depression have revealed to them that there are at least 7 distinct subpopulations of brains with depression. So there are 7 underlying functional reasons for the depression (at least).

The take home message is that depression is not a "thinking problem". It is a brain problem. There is something different about the brains of people with depression, and it is functional and biochemical in nature.

Another take home message from their research is that with these 7 subtypes of brains, it requires different kinds of treatments to make them better. This is why so many people don't get better when they seek help. Most doctors don't know that much about the latest research. There are many effective treatments out there. Not just drugs, but also diet, exercise and getting off of alcohol and/or drugs is critical.

A lot of people think they are self medicating with alcohol, but in fact the alcohol is just a temporary fix that numbs you out, and overall makes you much worse. Please get off the booze.

You might want to try several doctors. Do research online and find the top people in the field, because you can get better. Don't just give up. This is your life, and you can make it better.

Here is a link to that clinic that I was talking about, from the show I saw on PBS. If you have depression and no treatments are working for you, call these people (no, I am not affiliated with them in any way). Getting a brain imaging done will help them figure out the underlying issues and can tailor your treatment specifically for your problem, rather than guessing and trial and error.

http://www.amenclinics.com/clinics/information/ways-we-can-help/anxiety-depression/

If not that clinic, there are many others.

I hope the best for all of you.