Hooknswoop 19 #1 February 3, 2005 http://www.jumpshack.com/Download/Re-Designation_safetynotice.pdf All SST/Racer, Racer Elites, and Racer Trainers can now only be used with round parachutes only. I don't work on Racers, so could someone that does explain this? What is different with the newer Racers main lift web? **Moderator's note: readers of this thread should first read the service bulletin in its entirety via the link provided, then read the entire thread to put the original poster's comments in proper context. Later posts include clarifications by those who have direct access to the manufacturer. Ultimately, users or Riggers with questions should contact the manufacturer directly - slotperfect Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #2 February 3, 2005 "All models of SST/Racers, Racer Elites & Racer Trainers equipped with a single strand adjustable main lift web." I've never seen a Racer with an adjustable main lift web, but it sounds like the newer system has more layers of webbing in it. Pictures, anyone? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jceman 1 #3 February 3, 2005 Quote"All models of SST/Racers, Racer Elites & Racer Trainers equipped with a single strand adjustable main lift web." I've never seen a Racer with an adjustable main lift web, but it sounds like the newer system has more layers of webbing in it. Pictures, anyone? QuoteThe above listed equipment has not been manufactured for over 8 years. It was superceded with a double strand pulley system for adjustment of the main lift web. Recent developments and increased understanding with the deployment anomalies generated by malfunctioning Ram-Air parachutes indicate that the left/right distribution of loads may exceed the strength capacity of the original design. These anomalies could cause failure of the main lift web. This has not happened on Jump Shack equipment but we believe that theoretically it could happen and that all single strand adjustable Main lift webs are vulnerable. Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money. Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #4 February 3, 2005 QuoteQuote"All models of SST/Racers, Racer Elites & Racer Trainers equipped with a single strand adjustable main lift web." I've never seen a Racer with an adjustable main lift web, but it sounds like the newer system has more layers of webbing in it. Pictures, anyone? QuoteThe above listed equipment has not been manufactured for over 8 years. It was superceded with a double strand pulley system for adjustment of the main lift web. Recent developments and increased understanding with the deployment anomalies generated by malfunctioning Ram-Air parachutes indicate that the left/right distribution of loads may exceed the strength capacity of the original design. These anomalies could cause failure of the main lift web. This has not happened on Jump Shack equipment but we believe that theoretically it could happen and that all single strand adjustable Main lift webs are vulnerable. Was there a point to your post? I am not sure what you are trying to say. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #5 February 3, 2005 Quotehttp://www.jumpshack.com/Download/Re-Designation_safetynotice.pdf All SST/Racer, Racer Elites, and Racer Trainers can now only be used with round parachutes only. I don't work on Racers, Derek Derek, this is, at best, a provocative posting as that is NOT what the bulletin states, and your comment that you do not work on Racers suggests to me that you posted it for effect only. If I am wrong here, I apologize in advance, but suggest that you read more carefully before posting inaccurate information here. The note on the web site is very clear. In an effort to prevent the kind of problems experienced by some other manufacturer's equipment, pre-emptive action has been taken regarding some older style of rigs with a single adjustment point.Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #6 February 3, 2005 I didn't read the notice all that carefully (because I don't work on Racers, so I don't really care about it) and obviously didn't post enogh information the first time around. When I noticed that, someone had already corrected me so I left it alone. Relax. Can you explain the notice? Is it for adjustable main lift webs? Do they not make them anymore? Did they change the main lift web design or the design for adjusting it? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #7 February 3, 2005 QuoteRelax. Is that some kind of a sick joke? Your long standing history of disliking Racers is well known and documented. However, you have now crossed the line of being outright misleading and malicious. If you "didn't read the notice all that carefully" then you should not make uninformed inaccurate comments. And since you have now admitted that mistake did you ask any of the moderators to remove the post?Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #8 February 3, 2005 Wow. The first reply to my post corrected my error, so no, I didn't ask a Moderator to remove my post. I made a mistake. I admitted that. I didn't mean to trash Racers at all. In fact, I asked for someone to explain the notice since I didn't understand it. I didn't intentional "go after" Racers. Since the Notice is in PDF format, I wasn't going to type the entire thing up. I was going to just post the link, then thought it might be a good idea to add a line or two. It wasn't my intention to be misleading. I would have had to understand the Notice to be misleading. I just didn't, and still don't, understand the Notice. QuoteYour long standing history of disliking Racers is well known and documented. I don't dislike Racers, I have 'well documented' valid reasons for not packing them. You work for Jump Shack, right? Do you have anything to add to the Notice? Any information that would help? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #9 February 3, 2005 Peter, Is this related to the Student Javelin problem? At our DZ we use Student Talons with adj main lift web. Is this a more "global" problem?Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #10 February 3, 2005 QuoteYou work for Jump Shack, right? No, I do not work for Jump Shack.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #11 February 3, 2005 Do you have anything to add to the Notice? Any information that would help? Would you please explain the Notice so I, and others will understand it? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #12 February 3, 2005 QuotePeter, Is this related to the Student Javelin problem? At our DZ we use Student Talons with adj main lift web. Is this a more "global" problem? Indirectly, yes. We have serious concerns that a single point, adjustable main lift web "could" be insufficient to take the force exerted by a malfunctioning, ram air main parachute, especially if generated by line dump, or some other situation that caused the parachute to open excessivly hard. While this problem hasn't arisen with Racer Trainers that were constructed that way, John decided to designate that design as suitable for round parachutes only. This is a pre-emptive action to avoid the situation that caused the grounding of the Student Javelin with a similar design.Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jceman 1 #13 February 3, 2005 QuoteWas there a point to your post? I am not sure what you are trying to say. Yes, the point should be fairly obvious, it was to post the germane information that was so erroneously omitted from the original post. Faster horses, younger women, older whiskey, more money. Why do they call it "Tourist Season" if we can't shoot them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #14 February 3, 2005 Quotethe germane information that was so erroneously omitted from the original post. Yes, it was and that was my fault. I didn't leave it out because I was trying to make a point, just lazy, didn't feel like typing out the entire thing and didn't realize how important that information was. All I wanted to do was 1) Get the information that there is a notice out there and 2) get a discussion about it going so that I would understand the Notice. That is all. No other dark motives. I hope that explains my error. I think I understand the Notice now. The difference bewteen the older main lift webs and the newer main lift webs is the newer ones have the double webbing sewn together, making it thicker. Is this correct? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #15 February 3, 2005 Quote I think I understand the Notice now. The difference bewteen the older main lift webs and the newer main lift webs is the newer ones have the double webbing sewn together, making it thicker. Is this correct? Derek Not quite. The older style had the lift web going through a friction adapter at the bottom of the MLW and coming back up. You shortened the MLW by pulling up and released it just like a leg strap. The newer design works like a pulley. The MLW is passed through a 5000 lb link at the bottom, comes back up and through an adapter at the top.Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #16 February 3, 2005 QuoteDo you have anything to add to the Notice?NoQuoteWould you please explain the Notice so I, and others will understand it?Since I do not work for the factory I think that it would be better to let the factory respond to this.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #17 February 3, 2005 QuoteNot quite. The older style had the lift web going through a friction adapter at the bottom of the MLW and coming back up. You shortened the MLW by pulling up and released it just like a leg strap. The newer design works like a pulley. The MLW is passed through a 5000 lb link at the bottom, comes back up and through an adapter at the top. Sid, OK, I understand now, thanks. Maybe the wrong thread for this, but when the Sun Path SB came out, I wondered about adjustable harnesses on tandems and how they would be affected. What do you think about appling this same design to tandems and passsenger harnesses? Again, I didn't mean anything by my original post. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #18 February 3, 2005 Quote Maybe the wrong thread for this, but when the Sun Path SB came out, I wondered about adjustable harnesses on tandems and how they would be affected. What do you think about appling this same design to tandems and passsenger harnesses? Derek That's not really my field, (but as that's never stopped me before) however, I would think that the passenger harness has enough attachment points that the opening shock would be deflected from the adjustment hardware. The Racer Tandem harness is not adjustable. The only other tandem rigs that I have experience with use a different adjuster (thread through) not spring loaded friction grip, but I have never looked at the others on the market. That's an interesting thought.......Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #19 February 3, 2005 QuotePeter, Is this related to the Student Javelin problem? At our DZ we use Student Talons with adj main lift web. Is this a more "global" problem? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's odd, during my 3 years at Rigging Innovations, I never saw a Student Talon. Perhaps you meant "Telesis?" Since Telesis uses tuck tabs to secure the ends of their main lift webs, slipping and fraying is rare on Telesis. Yes, fraying webbing is a global problem. This slipping and fraying problem is not unique to Javelins. Any time you load a "Friction Adaptor" it slips a little bit. Over time that slippage frays webbing. The only question is how many thousands of jumps you can put on any adjustable harness before it breaks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,048 #20 February 3, 2005 I sat in on one of John Sherman's seminars at the Symposium and he said ( I hope that I am remembering this correctly ) that he had some info that said a round canopy could load up to 60% on one side & 40% on the other side. He also had some info ( that came from Para-Flite, I think ) that said a square could load as much as 80% on one side and 20% on the other side. Since he ( John ) felt that the earlier versions of this rig were not built to withstand those types of loads ( 80% on one side ), they were restricting these rigs to round canopies only. HTH Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicknitro71 0 #21 February 3, 2005 Semantics...Memento Audere Semper 903 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropzonefool 0 #22 February 4, 2005 I wondered about adjustable harnesses on tandems and how they would be affected. What do you think about appling this same design to tandems and passsenger harnesses? >>>>>>>>>>> Ditto, I am worried about this also, as a newly rated Tandem Instructor MY first objective when I arrive at the DZ tommorow afternoon is to inspect the AMLW on our Vectors with a picture of the 3 from Sunpath's SB. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sid 1 #23 February 4, 2005 Quote "All models of SST/Racers, Racer Elites & Racer Trainers equipped with a single strand adjustable main lift web." I've never seen a Racer with an adjustable main lift web, but it sounds like the newer system has more layers of webbing in it. Pictures, anyone? I found a picture of the "pulley System" which we currently produce at Jump Shack for adjustable Main Lift Webs. These are for tactical and student rigs primarily. I couldn't find a picture of the system that John designated for round parachutes only, but you can find one on the Sunpath website in relation to their bulletin.Pete Draper, Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 55 #24 February 4, 2005 QuoteAll SST/Racer, Racer Elites, and Racer Trainers can now only be used with round parachutes only. That means that both parachutes have to be round. Who would use them? And, can students jump round parachutes in the U.S. (both main and reserve)? Just curious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #25 February 5, 2005 Since the main lift web is subjected to the opening forces regardless if it is the main or reserve. Since the problem is the adjustable harness combined with the ability of suares to load one side a lot more than the other compared to rounds, yes only round mains or reserves can be used. Beats grounding the rigs. The pully system is a very nice solution to the problem. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
