fcajump 153 #1 November 16, 2010 I am looking for responses from those who have actually experienced a personal downplane (normal rig, two out). I have been in a two out (biplane) and found myself sitting in the harness basically the same way as I would with a single canopy. What I am asking is what orientation did you find yourself during the downplane? I assume that since both canopies are attached at virtually the same shoulder location, and during a "stable" downplane, you would be more or less head-up, suspended between the two canopies (like in the middle of a horizontal rope). Descending somewhat feet/butt first. Was this the case, or is there something I'm not seeing here? I hope never to find myself in one, but curious what your experience was... Thanks, JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AStack75 4 #2 November 16, 2010 I was in an upright orientation when I had my two out last month. I didn't recognize I had two out and just saw my main canopy diving down and got focused on that and didn't recognize based on my body position that I had to have an open canopy behind me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #3 November 16, 2010 I've done it on purpose (on a rig with a tertiary canopy) and I did end up "hanging by my armpits" it felt like flying feet to earth.. Twas funny - the video guy had no problem at all staying with me until I released the brakes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #4 November 16, 2010 Like normal. I didn't let it develop much speed though, chopped it after the canopies were at the horizon. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #5 November 16, 2010 Quote I've done it on purpose (on a rig with a tertiary canopy) and I did end up "hanging by my armpits" it felt like flying feet to earth.. Twas funny - the video guy had no problem at all staying with me until I released the brakes Was thinking of setting up to do this some time. (obviously related to the question about the base ring options) How did you deploy (backwards first, then shake out the front facing front mounted?) Any concern about over stressing the base-ring stitching (since you were using two sets pulling in peel rather than sheer on the lower set of rings)? Of course, you're a light weight, so you would not be stressing near as much as my... higher loading... JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #6 November 16, 2010 " ... Any concern about over stressing the base-ring stitching (since you were using two sets pulling in peel rather than sheer on the lower set of rings)? Of course, you're a light weight, so you would not be stressing near as much as my... higher loading... JW ..." ................................................................... Since the shoulder joint stitching is protected by a metal confluence wrap (slot in RW-1 ring) it is unlikely that the stitching will be damaged, especially if you deploy the second canopy at sub-terminal. Though why you would want to repeat lessons - that others have learned the painful way - is a mystery to me. Try reading the Golden Knights report circa 1993. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #7 November 16, 2010 Quote Since the shoulder joint stitching is protected by a metal confluence wrap (slot in RW-1 ring) it is unlikely that the stitching will be damaged, especially if you deploy the second canopy at sub-terminal. Actually, more concerned about the lower (second) rings that will (might) be stressed away from the shoulder attach point and in a "peel" direction to its normal loading/stitching. (On my rig, the second ring set are ~4" lower than the upper rings.) It is for this concern that I am thinking about using dual mini rings on my upper set for this. Quote Though why you would want to repeat lessons - that others have learned the painful way - is a mystery to me. Try reading the Golden Knights report circa 1993. Did... several times. On the other hand, many have jumped before us and written about it... so why do you still jump?? JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voilsb 1 #8 November 16, 2010 QuoteTry reading the Golden Knights report circa 1993.You know, I've heard this referenced a few times, but my Google-fu must be weak. Can anyone provide a link?Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #9 November 17, 2010 Not the actual test results, but a very good summary is here... http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf Thanks PD. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 37 #10 November 17, 2010 I'll admit that I never thought of that (~10 years ago). My setup was made by the rig manufacturer and wasn't ad hoc so I felt pretty comfortable with it.. Had no problems. And I didn't do it for learning - I did it cuz it was frigging fun! I did have the parachute in my main container hooked up backwards, and had one on my belly facing forwards. The belly one I launched after the back one. Had no issues at all - worked out very clean.., Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #11 November 17, 2010 That's our Wendy!! Got the same goal, but a chicken-sh!t skydiver tests the water before diving in... JW Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voilsb 1 #12 November 17, 2010 QuoteNot the actual test results, but a very good summary is here... http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/dualsq.pdf Thanks PD. JWThanks. I'd read that report before, but had no idea it was related to the GK tests.Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #13 November 17, 2010 Quote ... Quote Though why you would want to repeat lessons - that others have learned the painful way - is a mystery to me. Try reading the Golden Knights report circa 1993. Did... several times. On the other hand, many have jumped before us and written about it... so why do you still jump?? JW ........................................................................ Most people jump and say that they enjoy jumping, so their experienkes are worth repeating. If they say their experinke was painful, there is no point to me repeating their mistakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #14 November 18, 2010 Quote Quote ... Quote Though why you would want to repeat lessons - that others have learned the painful way - is a mystery to me. Try reading the Golden Knights report circa 1993. Did... several times. On the other hand, many have jumped before us and written about it... so why do you still jump?? JW ........................................................................ Most people jump and say that they enjoy jumping, so their experienkes are worth repeating. If they say their experinke was painful, there is no point to me repeating their mistakes. Ok. Wendy tells me its fun... sounds like it might be worth repeating.On the other hand, most jumpers ask me why I do intentional cutaways... I on the other hand ask them why they swoop. The odds seem, so far, to be in my favor... JW (edited to add more good natured smart-a$$ comments in response to RR's common sense statements)Always remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #15 November 18, 2010 I was (unfortunately) a witness to a downplane fatality due to a low pull followed by an AAD fire. The injuries were indicative of someone who hit the ground belly to earth per the coroner's report and from what we saw. The injuries appeared, medically, to be as if someone hit a solid object at 65 miles per hour chest first. It is possible the skydiver was only somewhat belly to earth in a head high orientation, but it appears the skydiver was definitely not butt, feet, or back to earth when they met the ground. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #16 November 18, 2010 Quote I was (unfortunately) a witness to a downplane fatality due to a low pull followed by an AAD fire. The injuries were indicative of someone who hit the ground belly to earth per the coroner's report and from what we saw. The injuries appeared, medically, to be as if someone hit a solid object at 65 miles per hour chest first. It is possible the skydiver was only somewhat belly to earth in a head high orientation, but it appears the skydiver was definitely not butt, feet, or back to earth when they met the ground. Condolances for her (and you.) Wendy mentioned that her cameraman was able to stay with her intentional downplane. Wonder if the speed is such that this skydiver was still somewhat belly to earth due to terminal velocity wind/air-resistance? Or, is it possible that the "formation" of the two canopies was transitioning/unstable enough to be bouncing her from position to position (belly/back/etc)? Thanks for your input. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #17 November 18, 2010 Quote Ok. Wendy tells me its fun... sounds like it might be worth repeating. I had been thinking the same but hadn't gotten around to it, given possible issues with my 2-harness system, different from Wendy's 2 sets of rings on one harness. Someone else locally tried it with 2 harnesses this year, but got choked unconscious by the harnesses pulling in different directions. (From a couple thousand feet up he came down under the downplane, unconscious, and hit the grass runway in easy view of everyone. Quite a show, although it cost him a broken femur and most of the season off jumping. And yes he was hanging vertically between the canopies.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fcajump 153 #18 November 18, 2010 Yea... I'd stay away from that myself... My rig is similar to Wendy's. While I hate to admit it, I'm not sure I would have forseen his outcome, though in retrospect it seems clearly obvious... I would suggest being very careful when doing intentionals with that rig that you don't get into a two-out situation. JWAlways remember that some clouds are harder than others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #19 November 18, 2010 I once rode a 2-out to the ground when I had 50+ jumps. Didn't know what to do. I was almost like a deer in headlights and panicky, but because the main was a Falcon 235 and the reserve was a Raven 218 and my exit weight was about 165 lbs, the two canopies flew pretty stable in a side-by-side configuration. After downsizing and facing 2-outs twice later on, I cut-away immediately before the reserve came out of the d-bag."Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydivesg 6 #20 November 18, 2010 OMG. Forgive me for asking, but how the hell do you have 3 two-outs?Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #21 November 18, 2010 Quote OMG. Forgive me for asking, but how the hell do you have 3 two-outs? First one was an FXC-12000 misfire. Second was a hot 10 way that went to shit near break-off and in the mass confusion, didn't have clear airspace and hummed it just a tad too low, resulting in a cypres fire after getting in the saddle, and the planned break-off of 3500 feet didn't help either (should have taken myself off the jump when I asked). Third was having my px goggles fog over at the worst possible time during breakoff, and not being able to see the others or my altimeter contributed to the cypres fire, again after I was in the saddle. The latter two I promptly cut-away as soon as I felt the pop on my back. File them under stupid shit I've done. The last one though was 5 years ago. I'm not so stupid anymore. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
superhina 0 #22 November 20, 2010 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvMuIVSvWrY&feature=player_embedded student rigg, but shit happens... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #23 November 20, 2010 Quotehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvMuIVSvWrY&feature=player_embedded student rigg, but shit happens... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flyerer 0 #24 November 21, 2010 Thanks for including that report. It contains a lot of useful information that answers a lot of questions I've had since completing my AFF. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
