cpoxon 0 #26 January 18, 2005 Quote...and kept hold of his handles..... It looks to me like he's trying to stow his cutaway before he pulls his reserve. Can that be right?Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #27 January 18, 2005 QuoteQuoteAs mentioned we all would like to know whether this can also happen to Mirage, Javelin, etc. Preliminary inspection on the Mirage last night showed that as long as the main pin protection stayed closed it couldn't be duplicated due to all the stiffeners and layers of fabric. We also have a javelin sitting in our house that we can test out tonight. Looks like Hooknswoop is going to get to start experimenting again. I tried it w/o success on a Vector V1, V3, and V3M. However since none of them currently have a reserve packed in them, it's likely not a valid test. (2 are waiting for CYPRES 4-yrs, and one is waiting for me to find time to pack it.)"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #28 January 18, 2005 QuoteIt looks to me like he's trying to stow his cutaway before he pulls his reserve. Can that be right? I thought something looked a bit odd as well..... I t looked like when he went for his reserve he is using his left hand to pull out the left main webbing.....to get to his handle. Reserve handle caught underneath webbing perhaps??? Despite that I like how he just transfers his reserve ripcord to his right hand whilst waiting ( a while !!) for the reserve to do 'something'.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #29 January 18, 2005 QuoteLooks like Hooknswoop is going to get to start experimenting again. Expect to find the venison outside in the snow and the Javelin in the freezer.... This morning I tried to duplicate the line hang up on my Infinity without success. I'll give it another go when I'm home. This week I'll try the same thing on an Eclipse, a Javelin, and a Wings. The same deflector flap that has been put on the Atom should be put on the Omega. The other alternative is to redesign the flap.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ciechan 0 #30 January 18, 2005 Quote The same deflector flap that has been put on the Atom should be put on the Omega. The other alternative is to redesign the flap. maybe something like this (sorry for my poor drawing) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
payback462 0 #31 January 18, 2005 go back and watch the video, pause it and scroll through frame by frame, he puts his thumb through the big ring on his 3 ring after he cuts away, thinking thats his reserve, struggles to pull it, then pulls his thunb out, all the while his right hand is searching for it, then finally gets his reserve handle with his left hand and pulls it. it seems like the intention wasnt to pull on the lift web, but just that he didnt LOOK before putting his hand on what he thought was the reserve handle. good reinforcement to the training LOOK, locate...etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 22 #32 January 18, 2005 QuoteThis week I'll try the same thing on an Eclipse, a Javelin, and a Wings. just tried it with my javelin - lines wouldn't stay there, they came off instantly no matter what i tried - well i didn't want to use a tacker or superglue thanks to all posters for your input so far. one polite request though: please could we keep the discussion wether he pulled stable or searched for handles and stuff like that out of this thread? BIG thanks!The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #33 January 18, 2005 hmmm....speculation. He's the only person who could answer that one. According to the info...he is an experienced instructor and that combined with the other 'cool' thinking he demonstrates....makes it a little hard to believe that he would be tugging on his three ring release as a reserve ripcord..... Either way I think he handled it all like a champ.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
audacium 0 #34 January 18, 2005 I would suggest to post ideas about pull sequence, reaction of the skydiver, what he maybe could have done differently etc. in the incident forum (there is already a short thread) and discuss here the pure "flap design issue". -- Eduard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #35 January 18, 2005 Can someone provide a photo/drawing of the Atom's deflector flap?"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #36 January 18, 2005 Yes, look up a few posts ==>HereMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
payback462 0 #37 January 18, 2005 QuoteHe's the only person who could answer that one. as i said above the video CLEARLY shows him tugging on his 3 ring, pause it and move it frame by frame, its right there. Quotemakes it a little hard to believe that he would be tugging on his three ring release as a reserve ripcord..... its hard for me to belive he would have his hand through his three ring, for any other reason that he simply mistook it for his reserve ripcord. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #38 January 18, 2005 Get over it. It took him 3 seconds between pulling the cutaway and pulling the reserve. After having a friend of mine tug on his till impact, I'd say he did fine, not perfect but he overcame a mistake rather quickly. Take the discussion elsewhere.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #39 January 18, 2005 Quotea change in the construction of the container (read: flap) won't solve the problem of lines getting caught in different places. due to the fact that the design of any brand/type of container is more or less similar the same kind of scenario can happen with other containers After seeing the pictures, following the links and reading the stories (my German is adequate), I am left with a few questions. 1. Where were the lines of the main, prior to the opening - bottom of container or against the reserve? (probably a 'no-brainer', but I want to make certain...) 2. Other than bluntly claiming that this could happen with any other container, did the investigators try to reproduce this with one or more of those other brands? That should be easy to do and from what I gather here, several people on the forum are already trying this and so far no one is successful. I'd imagine that you just take a long enough piece of suspension-line, loop it once around the flap where you suspect this could happen - like in the reconstruction picture - and see if you can catch a flap and lift the jumper from the ground (though I am not sure here - in the picture of the reconstruction is the jumper we see there suspended from the ground or not?) In general, using rubber bands that actually hold the stows is safer than bands that are so wide that the stows fall out when you lift the bag out of the container. But even then, they shouldn't get caught as easily as they appear to do with an omega. (Three similar incidents is a lot IMO...) Never seen this thing before (line caught by a stiffener plate in a flap, that is. I know of lines snagged by grommets and have seen lines get caught by the underside of the reserve container...) Whatever the jumper did or did not do when handling the malfunction, it is not relevant to the cause. I'm OK with loose rubber bands causing line dump type malfunctions but when one of those lines snags around 'a perfectly normal flap' then IMO that flap needs to be redesigned. Getting stuck with a line of your main somewhere in or at your container leaves you with an extremely dangerous malfunction that has proven on several previous occasions that it can result in both a fatality or severe trauma - with jumpers executing normal procedures (i.e. cutaway & pull reserve) However tempting 'pilot error' may be in light of liability: if it isn't or there is more to it, it seems better to fix it... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #40 January 18, 2005 QuoteQuoteHe's the only person who could answer that one. as i said above the video CLEARLY shows him tugging on his 3 ring, pause it and move it frame by frame, its right there. Quotemakes it a little hard to believe that he would be tugging on his three ring release as a reserve ripcord..... its hard for me to belive he would have his hand through his three ring, for any other reason that he simply mistook it for his reserve ripcord. Just an idea- perhaps he realized the main hadn't left completely and reached for the point where he last saw it attached- i.e. the three ring. Just an idea of course. As Hookitt said, pulling the reserve before impact is what matters when you cut away. BTW- so that's what that flap on Atoms is there for! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
audacium 0 #41 January 18, 2005 Alright, I will try to answer all the questions that have been brought up. I talked an hour or so ago to the jumper in question, and I hope I can clarify all issues brought up. At the moment he is busy working at a place where he does not have internet access, so he cannot join in himself. As the discussion is going on here anyway I refrain from posting the answers in the incident forum, even if it might be more appropriate there. Thanks so far to everybody for the input, it is highly appreciated! And please excuse me if I do not quote the relevant poster, we have now several questions from various people, I will just answer these in a possibly logical manner. I will do my best to transmit the information from the jumper to you as exactly as I can. First, regarding the cutaway and pull of the reserve: I think it is best to transmit the jumper's own description. Normal breakoff, tracking away. Stopping before dumping. Activation of main happened in stable belly-to-earth position. Then he noticed the mal, and he immediately began to spin. Remember, it was an elliptical 100sqft canopy. He then tried (a few seconds) to clear the mal by pulling on the risers, but did not manage it. What you can see here in between - something yellow, is not the cutaway cable btw, but his leg and foot with one short yellow marker band (it was a tracking dive I think, we sometimes use these "marker bands" on tracking dives) (I will ask him again on that, why it comes to be seen at all. Did not ask before as I did not have the video in front.) Also it was spinning badly (as can be seen in the video) so he decided to cut away (with right hand). After cutaway with the right hand (well visible in the video) instead of falling free from the main he noticed immediately that the main was still stuck to him. He then went with his left hand for the reserve handle. When touching he noticed that it was not the reserve handle what he was feeling. So he looked down and saw that he had grabbed the D-Ring. (Payback462, you were exactly right) Reason: The snagged line had pulled the container so far around his shoulder that the whole MLW had slid down. So the D-ring suddenly was at the position where you would normally find the reserve handle, and the reserve handle was much further down. He then pulled with his right hand on the left MLW to clear the reserve handle and bring it up. When done he activated the reserve with his left hand. He then waited in a stable belly-to-earth position for the reserve to open. And after a second or so he knew he was in deep shit...The rest should be quite clear from the video I think. Second: Regarding the reserve actication. He prefers to first touch and then look. Others may prefer to first look at the reserve handle and then touch. Anyway, the sliding down of the MLW is what caused the hesitation in activating the reserve. For sure he was NOT trying to stow his cutaway handle. It looks a little bit like this, but first he tried to clear the mal and then he cleared the reserve handle. With the benefit of hindsight he says he could just have pulled the reserve handle directly with his right hand, but obviously it is so much engrained to pull reserve with the left that he first cleared with the right hand and then switched. Third: Regarding usage of a hook knife. Also here with the benefit of hindsight he says a hookknife could have been used. For two reasons he did not use it: First, as this was an unusual mal it was not really part of his automatic emergency procedure to fumble around with the hookknife. He did, what he was trained to do: Mal with the main, not able to solve, cutaway. Second, and this was probably the main reason he did not wait that long, he was in a rapid spin. It remains questionable whether you are able to use a hookknife with such a fast spinning mal at all. But again, should he ever find himself again in such a situation he will probably try to go for the hookknife first, he says now. (edited for spelling) -- Eduard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
audacium 0 #42 January 19, 2005 Quote 1. Where were the lines of the main, prior to the opening - bottom of container or against the reserve? (probably a 'no-brainer', but I want to make certain...) I do not know, to be sure I have to ask the jumper. But with our packing procedures normally the lines are against the bottom of the container (as most people do it, I reckon), so I would be surprised if he did it differently. Quote 2. Other than bluntly claiming that this could happen with any other container, did the investigators try to reproduce this with one or more of those other brands? Well, that is exactly why a lot of people are very unhappy with the manufacturer's reaction and the investigation: So far they have not produced any solid evidence that the same can happen to other containers. By solid evidence I mean providing pictures like on the website of the jumper with the mal. Quote (though I am not sure here - in the picture of the reconstruction is the jumper we see there suspended from the ground or not?) He is freely hanging and not suspended. If this can be shown the same way for any other container I would be very interested of course. Or rather everybody should be concerned. For my Mirage and my Javelin at least at the moment I do not see how this would be possible. That is the reason why it was posted here by feuergnom: To find out whether this might be a common (to other containers as well) but hidden (to our normal risk assessment) problem. Quote Whatever the jumper did or did not do when handling the malfunction, it is not relevant to the cause. I'm OK with loose rubber bands causing line dump type malfunctions but when one of those lines snags around 'a perfectly normal flap' then IMO that flap needs to be redesigned. That is what a lot jumpers think, including Omage owners. A lot of people have looked at the flap design, and most found it compelling that the flap design was the cause for this mal. Notice by the way that the manufacturer is not saying that the flap design is ok. He is rather pointing finger at other manufacturers and claiming this can happen with any container. So, implicitly he is admitting that the design is "less than optimal", isn't he? In my eyes this is a very flawed approach because an error is an error, and a design flaw is a design flaw, independent of how many other manufacturer might have the same. In addition they did not produce any solid evidence about the truth of this claim, as mentioned. (edited for spelling) -- Eduard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
payback462 0 #43 January 19, 2005 thanks for the reply and clarification. QuoteThe snagged line had pulled the container so far around his shoulder that the whole MLW had slid down. So the D-ring suddenly was at the position where you would normally find the reserve handle, and the reserve handle was much further down. He then pulled with his right hand on the left MLW to clear the reserve handle and bring it up. When done he activated the reserve with his left hand. that is what i had guessed from the location of the d-ring. (lower on chest area) it was definetaly not my intent to make light of the jumpers mistake, just to point out that it can infact happen, to ANYONE, and we should plan our emergency procedures accordingly. i suspect that jumper has some serious skill, and definetaly some luck! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,121 #44 January 19, 2005 Note, by the way, that "look at the handle" can be very difficult for some busty women, all joking aside. So they do have to feel for the handle regardless, and look at the general harness. If the handle is down below a D cup, (no, that's not me), it's very difficult to see. Just something to be aware of when training and working with some women. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
audacium 0 #45 January 19, 2005 Quote Quote (though I am not sure here - in the picture of the reconstruction is the jumper we see there suspended from the ground or not?) He is freely hanging and not suspended. Just for grammatical clarification - the jumper is freely hanging and suspended from above. He does not touch the ground with his hand or feet. (I could not edit the old post any more) -- Eduard Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #46 January 19, 2005 QuoteNote, by the way, that "look at the handle" can be very difficult for some busty women, all joking aside. So they do have to feel for the handle regardless, and look at the general harness. If the handle is down below a D cup, (no, that's not me), it's very difficult to see. Just something to be aware of when training and working with some women. Wendy W. I've had quite a few cutaways thus far and have never seen my handles... I jump a rig sometimes where the handles (and the chest strap) are placed higher, here I can see them but the rig isn't comfortable this way. I've never had a mal where the harness was so distorted that the handles had moved around much, luckily. I know one guy who has a rig with the handles above the chest strap, that may be one solution for us busty women, but I'm guessing there may be a reason there aren't many setups like that? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 22 #47 January 19, 2005 Quote1. Where were the lines of the main, prior to the opening - bottom of container or against the reserve? (probably a 'no-brainer', but I want to make certain...) i could bet the lines were on the bottom of the container. why? well first the jumper is experienced and a rigger. and – afaik – he knows for shure that placing excess lines close to the reserve container can put heavy stress on stitchings and the rest of the container during deployment... well at least thats what we teach our students on our small dz... Quote2. Other than bluntly claiming that this could happen with any other container, did the investigators try to reproduce this with one or more of those other brands? well basically they said they did - but didn't want to share any "evidence" (for whatever reason). thanks to all posters STAYING ON TOPIC and as a maybe offensive sidenote: all the other stuff about stable deployment, lookin for shifted handles and such has been discussed in variuos other post onsite. do a search and if you still have questions - open another thread The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FineHavanas 0 #48 January 19, 2005 I happen to have an old Omega in the closet, and the handles are in fact ABOVE the chest strap. Was that also the case with this rig? (may be visible from the pictures?) (edited for spelling) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #49 January 19, 2005 Well, there is another guy in PR that also had an issue with a dbl malfunction. He is ok, with rather minor injures, but you can see some pics, and a translated description of events in here Edited to add: look for post 14 for the translation"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #50 January 19, 2005 (after a quick glance of the thread) That is another issue than what is discussed here. Doing 'gymnastics' after deployment may be interesting, but 'all bets are off...' What is discussed here is the assertion of an investigating commitee in Germany who in effect concluded that during a stable deployment loose suspension lines of a main canopy can wrap themselves around a closing flap, not only on an omega, but on a lot of rigs on the market today. I think they are wrong in that conclusion and I urge them to come up with evidence that supports what they are saying. Let's remember that so far people have been able to reconstruct what probably happened with the omega (i.e. lifting a guy and his rig from the ground with a suspension line around a flap) and no one has shown this to be possible with any other rig. Plain and simple: if you think you can repeat that trick with other rigs on the market (without staples and/ot superglue) .... SHOW US! "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
