Hooknswoop 19 #1 January 16, 2005 Does it matter if it is a $100 or $500 SB? Say it is a mandatory SB. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
webracer 0 #2 January 16, 2005 I feel if the SB is mandatory, the Mfr. should pay for it. If it is recommended, then the owner should pay for it.Troy I am now free to exercise my downward mobility. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #3 January 16, 2005 The third choice? Right! I don't think so. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #4 January 16, 2005 Quote The third choice? Right!Crazy I don't think so. I knew riggers would get a good laugh out of that. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #5 January 16, 2005 Agree, but I still think riggers should pack for free, just cause they love getting all hot and sweaty packing reserves Hook knows I'm jokingMay your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #6 January 16, 2005 QuoteAgree, but I still think riggers should pack for free, just cause they love getting all hot and sweaty packing reserves Hook knows I'm joking I know of better ways of "getting all hot and sweaty". Of course at my age I am going on memory. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyangel2 2 #7 January 16, 2005 But the fun would be doing it on the customer's reserve. Okay, I'm out of here, don't want Hook mad at me for hijacking his thread.May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #8 January 16, 2005 Only 21 votes, but I'm seeing a trend. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #9 January 17, 2005 It's a self-selected poll. There's a lot more gear customers than gear manufacturers on dz.com . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #10 January 17, 2005 The poll is OK, it will/does reflect what owners think. We already know what some of the manufacturers think. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #11 January 17, 2005 OK so where are all the "you pay your money, take your chance's" people? that seems to be the idea with aircraft maintaince and dzo's cuting corners in safety. So you paid for the rig and now it needs fixed, you pay to fix it! ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #12 January 17, 2005 Quote It's a self-selected poll. There's a lot more gear customers than gear manufacturers on dz.com Yes, but the manufactures are there to serve the needs of their customers, or there wouldn't be manufactures in the first place. Of course the side effects will be more testing in the design process and the manufactures trying to prevent recalls from happening, due to being out of their pocket...all of which would drastically raise the price of gear. There's give and take. I know I would love for a manufacture to do the right thing, but there's no such thing as a free lunch. My next thought is if a company makes gear for the military and something like this happens, would they charge the military for the changes, or would the military have their own riggers to the fix? Eitherway it still costs money at some point for the people involved. Has that happened before with the military? What was the course of action?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #13 January 17, 2005 Vehicle manufacturers do it all the time for safety and defect issues. Why should a skydiving manufacturer be exempt from repairing defective gear? Curious on why you feel a manufacturer shouldn't be responsible for the quality of their product? Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #14 January 17, 2005 Hardly what I would call defective gear! More like a change in design that might help save your ass, why should they go broke because your cheap? Did you read the orange lable on the rig or in the front cover of the owners manual? You pay your money and take your chances it's really that simple with any rig. Unlike doing something knowingly to cut corners to make a buck like some DZO's have done and do with maintaince ect. The key word being knowingly, they built the rig it passed tso and then came to light there might be an issue that needs to be changed for safety, and knowing this info now it needs to be changed, shouldn't take a lot of work to do for a good master rigger.Nor cost a lot, how much is your safety worth? ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 102 #15 January 17, 2005 If you think manufacturers should pay the cost of SBs and ADs, then you are also asking for the cost to be shifted from current owners to future owners. Who should pay the cost for SBs and ADs that apply to orphan rigs? Finally, if the problem that led to an SB or AD is a result of poor rigging (as the background of Mirage PSB-1204 suggests), perhaps it isn't too far-fetched to required the rigger to fix the problem. Except on my rig, which I'll do myself, thanks! Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #16 January 17, 2005 Quote Hardly what I would call defective gear! So the reserve PC not launching when the AAD fires isn't defective? QuoteMore like a change in design that might help save your ass, why should they go broke because your cheap? You can't have it both ways. If it is such a cheap fix, they won't go broke. QuoteYou pay your money and take your chances it's really that simple with any rig. Unlike doing something knowingly to cut corners to make a buck like some DZO's have done and do with maintaince ect. They should stand behind their product and not expect the owner to pay to fix their design issue. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #17 January 17, 2005 QuoteHardly what I would call defective gear! Really, I seem to remember some models of Raven reserves blowing up. Guess that's not defective in your opinion. My point is that if it's something for the rig/main/reserve to be better/prettier/etc then sure, buyer pays up. If it's a defective/danger issue then the manufacturer should pay up. QuoteDid you read the orange lable on the rig or in the front cover of the owners manual? Yeah I did. I don't remember it saying if we build something that ends up killing a bunch of people because of bad design that they don't have to fix it. You may be refering to a specific bulletin, I am not. I'm talking about defect related SB's. Quotewhy should they go broke because your cheap? Ha, seriously. There's a difference between cheap and expecting the product to deliver what it "promises" (couldn't think of a better word but I'd like to hope you get my meaning). QuoteYou pay your money and take your chances it's really that simple with any rig. Ever bought a new car? If you have and the tranny broke after you had it for 2000 miles, I bet you'd get it replaced under warranty. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #18 January 17, 2005 Quote If you think manufacturers should pay the cost of SBs and ADs, then you are also asking for the cost to be shifted from current owners to future owners. I think that like car manufacturers, they should take the cost of future SB's into account in the selling price. QuoteWho should pay the cost for SBs and ADs that apply to orphan rigs? SB's aren't issues on orphaned rigs since SB's are issued by the manufacturer. an AD for skydiving gear hasn't been issued in a long time. The FAA doesn't want to spend the time or money to issue an AD for skydiving gear. I think it has been 15+ years since the last skydiving gear AD was issued. If you are jumping orphaned gear, junk it and get new gear. If not, if something does happen, you are stuck w/ the AD cost. Not likely to happen though. QuoteFinally, if the problem that led to an SB or AD is a result of poor rigging (as the background of Mirage PSB-1204 suggests), perhaps it isn't too far-fetched to required the rigger to fix the problem.Wink Except on my rig, which I'll do myself, thanks! I have said several times that I think they should have issued a bulletin emphasizing how to properly pack a Mirage and what can happen if it isn't properly packed and skip the SB altogether. Again, in the case of Kelli's Mustang, do you think she should have paid for towing, parts and labor for a part that Ford knew was defective? Imagine of Ford came out and said all Ford Explorers need a new airbags within the next 4 month and the owners are paying for it. If you don't replace them you will not be allowed to drive the vehicle on public roads. How well do you think that would go over? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dorbie 0 #19 January 17, 2005 QuoteQuote Hardly what I would call defective gear! So the reserve PC not launching when the AAD fires isn't defective? Didn't incorrect packing play a role according to the bulletin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #20 January 17, 2005 QuoteDidn't incorrect packing play a role according to the bulletin? Not incorrect packing, sloppy, poor packing. Too long of a closing loop and too much bulk in the ears, as I understand it. No rig should be expected to open if it was incorrectly packed. Again, I think Mirage Sys should have issued a bulletin clarifying packing the Mirage reserve and skipped the SB. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #21 January 17, 2005 QuoteOne incident has been reported overseas in which 2 Mirage containers failed to immediately deploy their reserves on the same jump after Cypres activations. Both jumpers deployed their mains and landed safely without further incident. Although details of the incident were vague, Mirage Systems was able to inspect the team gear involved and to review their typical packing procedures. Above is a quote from the SB in question. If the cypres fired and the container failed to immediately open, how in the hell did they still have time to deploy their mains. Could this possibly be a case of low pull, 2 out and not enough drag to pull the reserve/freebag from a tight container? Sparky Hook, the last AD was issued in 1993 to RI.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #22 January 17, 2005 QuoteYeah I did. I don't remember it saying if we build something that ends up killing a bunch of people because of bad design that they don't have to fix it. Quote !!!WARNING!!! Parachuting is a hazardous activity and there are dangers, which sometimes cannot be foreseen. No one should attempt to make a parachute jump unless they have been thoroughly trained by an experienced and qualified instructor. There are no guarantees that any equipment will function as intended, regardless of how it is assembled, packed, maintained or used. Serious injury or death can result from the use, misuse, or attempted use of any parachute equipment. This, or something close to it, is found in every owner's manual I have seen in the last 10 years. Either your memory is bad or you just didn't take time to read it. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #23 January 17, 2005 QuoteIf the cypres fired and the container failed to immediately open, how in the hell did they still have time to deploy their mains. Could this possibly be a case of low pull, 2 out and not enough drag to pull the reserve/freebag from a tight container? I was told the guys pulled their mains but were not under canopy until after the cypres fired... Low main pull... They should have had two out, but the reserve PC never came out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #24 January 17, 2005 QuoteQuoteIf the cypres fired and the container failed to immediately open, how in the hell did they still have time to deploy their mains. Could this possibly be a case of low pull, 2 out and not enough drag to pull the reserve/freebag from a tight container? I was told the guys pulled their mains but were not under canopy until after the cypres fired... Low main pull... They should have had two out, but the reserve PC never came out. Told by whom?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #25 January 17, 2005 QuoteThere are no guarantees that any equipment will function as intended, regardless of how it is assembled, packed, maintained or used. Sparky, I don't take that as a statement saying "Hey if it doesn't work and we find out why, we're not going to bother fixing it unless you pay for it". I accept the risks if I plowed in because of a defect on my rig (much as I'd really rather not have that happen ). However, should that happen, I also expect the manufacturer to take the steps to try and prevent it happening again to someone else. If they have a bad design, they need to fix it IMO. Recalls in the automotive industry are normally because of a number of malfunctions caused by the same components. When they do a recall it's because they found something wrong with the product they initially released and take active steps to prevent it happening again by replacing/repairing the component. That's all I expect from the manufacturers in any industry. As a software engineer it's expected of me regularly. We release a product, bugs are found, we fix them in that version at no cost to our customers. If they want NEW features, well then....they pay up just like everyone else Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
