Aviatrr 0 #26 March 5, 2001 Iflyme wrote:Quote When the person doing the hook turn messes up and slams into the planet, injuring or killing him/herself, others nearby witness the event, maybe come to that persons aid, and if it is bad, someone (our EMT friends know this feeling) has to clean up what used to be someones friend, lover, parent, whatever - but now they are just a broken corpse. Now it's not just the swooper who is affected - a bunch of other people are now physically and/or mentally affected. For some of us, our lives may change after witnessing the event. So don't tell me to mind my own business - because if I am there, and I have to watch you severely injure or kill yourself, and maybe help pack up your bloodied gear, and give it to your wife/husband, then it is my business. Ok, let's ban hook turns.. While we're at it, we better ban skydiving altogether.. You see, when you choose to jump, and you burn in, you affect the lives of all the people that respond(EMT's, Fire Dept, Police, and God forbid, reporters), whom would probably have nothing to do with skydiving otherwise.. And think of all the people that have to read about your untimely death in the newspaper, or see about it on the news.. Damn, look at all the grief you caused? ESPECIALLY if you burn in outside the DZ....like a Wal-Mart parking lot.. Think of all the traumatized families that had to witness and/or see the aftermath of your choice to participate in some stupid sport..As you can see, the above seems totally ludicrous.. Well, that's exactly how your statements seem to me.. By your reasoning, we need to ban any unnecesary activities that can cause others trauma when things go wrong - such as motorcycle riding, skydiving, bungee jumping, auto racing, the list goes on.. People will always witness things going wrong, and there will always be somebody that has to clean up..When you decide to participate in this sport, you are accepting all the risks.. Some of those are witnessing things that you don't want to see.. Just like you taking the risks by skydiving, those who hook are knowingly taking the risks by doing so..I'm not trying to put you down here, so please don't take it that way.. I'm playing devil's advocate and trying to get a point across.. We don't need more regulation - we need information..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
venwood 0 #27 March 5, 2001 MikeThe purpose of my original post was not to say hook turning is bad or should be banned. The sole purpose was to highlight that people are being injured and killed when doing this maneuver at a low altitude. I believe all skydivers should think about the statistics that surround hook turning, that we should understand that it can be unforgiving, and therefore use proper judgment when performing a hook turn...i.e. "am I at the correct altitude to do this safely?" I don't think banning any particular maneuver is advisable or even possible, but I think requiring more intense training saves lives.Just my two cents again,Venwood Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #28 March 5, 2001 Mike, I was referring to people who are acting out of their envelope of skills... not the skygod who, with 5000 jumps, is doing 1000 jumps/year. I'm not, for one moment, suggesting activity deemed by some to dangerous should be "banned" -- but we do have speed limilts on our roads to ensure everyone conducts themselves in a responsible manner. Still, there is always some clown who drives way over that limit, and ends up crashing... In skydiving the limit is not posted, but everone knows those low turns can cause you to crash. I just wish that weekend warrior skydivers had the good sense not to kill themselves doing intentional low turns (hook turns, to be more specific). I don't think a skydiving licence is a licence to kill yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #29 March 5, 2001 I think both sides are making good points.On the one hand, if I'm a DZO, I sure don't want some idiot who doesn't know his/her limitations burning in, giving my DZ bad press and thus hurting business. Fatalities are bad enough, but when they're totally avoidable, well, that's worse.On the other hand, I don't think that those who do have the experience and currency to perform high-speed maneuvers should be punished for the stupidity of amateurs. There are some guys at the DZ who do some pretty amazing stuff, and it's fun to watch (and I'm sure for them, fun to do) and they're always in total control.Our sport, by it's very nature, is pretty Darwinian. It can let you be as safe or reckless as you want to be. Nobody's with you in your canopy to bail you out. I guess this is no different than motocrossing, mountainbiking, skiing, etc where you are perfectly free to exceed your capabilities and suffer the consequences when you do. It's not the sport's fault.------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tee 0 #30 March 5, 2001 Quote Practice Braked turns. Awesome advice. Tee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #31 March 5, 2001 Hrm. I was taught braked turns. I use 'em pretty much exclusively when setting up my final approaches. ------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #32 March 5, 2001 Quote The purpose of my original post was not to say hook turning is bad or should be banned. The sole purpose was to highlight that people are being injured and killed when doing this maneuver at a low altitude. Fair enough.. Hook turns are, however, by nature, low altitude maneuvers.. A hook turn at a higher altitude is, well...just a turn.. I don't 'hook' turn, but I do sometimes do front riser turns to build up speed for landing.. If I choose to hook, I do so with the knowledge that it can kill me..Quote I believe all skydivers should think about the statistics that surround hook turning, that we should understand that it can be unforgiving, and therefore use proper judgment when performing a hook turn...i.e. "am I at the correct altitude to do this safely?" Honestly, I believe that most jumpers are very aware of the statistics regarding hook turns.. I believe that most jumpers know that a hook turn gone bad often results in serious injury or death.. Anybody that has been in the sport for any length of time certainly knows that.. Most people, however, are under the impression that it can't happen to them.. "It only happens to people with bad judgement, so it won't happen to me".. I know there aren't people out there thinking.. "I'm probably gonna die during this hook turn, but..what the hell.. here goes!"..I agree that better training will help, and the new ISP focuses more on canopy control than AFF/SL has in the past.. Hopefully it helps.. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #33 March 5, 2001 Quote I just wish that weekend warrior skydivers had the good sense not to kill themselves doing intentional low turns (hook turns, to be more specific). I don't think a skydiving licence is a licence to kill yourself. You have to keep in mind that there are people that, with 10 jumps a month, can fly a canopy just as well as those who jump 100 times a month.. Everybody is different.. I believe that most jumpers are totally aware of the dangers of hook turns, but everybody that does them thinks "it can't happen to me".. Those that believe they will hurt themselves doing hook turns....well, they just don't do 'em.. Good for them.. Granted, there are a lot of people doing them that probably shouldn't due to their experience level...but who am I to say who has the experience and who doesn't? I would love to see all hook turn injuries/fatalities come to an end.. I would hate to see new regulation where it is not needed.. If you don't want to see hook turns, or subject yourself to the possible trauma of watching somebody hook it in, jump at a DZ where hook turns are not allowed.. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #34 March 5, 2001 Quote Our sport, by it's very nature, is pretty Darwinian. It can let you be as safe or reckless as you want to be. Nobody's with you in your canopy to bail you out. I guess this is no different than motocrossing, mountainbiking, skiing, etc where you are perfectly free to exceed your capabilities and suffer the consequences when you do. It's not the sport's fault. My sentiments exactly.. People often have knee-jerk reactions when something goes wrong, and that's not the right way to correct these problems.. Education is key.. Of course, if somebody doesn't want to learn...they won't..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #35 March 5, 2001 QuoteI guess this is no different than motocrossing, mountainbiking, skiing, etc where you are perfectly free to exceed your capabilities and suffer the consequences when you do. It's not the sport's fault.Well said. And there are a class of people who are drawn to the sport exactly for that reason, just because you might not see the validity of performing hook turns yourself doesn't invalidate them.And if you don't ever want to see someone "burn in", leave the sport now. We all like to sit around and talk about how safe this sport is, but in truth it's extremely hazardous. Within a couple months of jumping I saw a man dislocate his leg and watched my instructor barely deploy reserve through a wrap with a student.Stay with the sport long enough and you'll see people hurt and odds are you'll lose friends. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #36 March 5, 2001 Spaceland has way exceptional instructors, dude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #37 March 5, 2001 Yup. 'Course I have nothing to compare them to, but I always felt good about the quality of instruction that I was getting. Plus, they've been really good about answering my post-student questions. And, they'll occasionally "pop quiz" me, just to make sure I don't stop doing the things they taught me. Some may get bent out of shape over that, but I'm glad they care enough to continue even after I "graduate".------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #38 March 5, 2001 Oh, sure - I'll quit this sport because I don't want to see someone die... Perhaps a better approach is to work within the established framework to improve our safety record, rather than turning my head the other way.This discussion is not about participating in what you characterize as an "extremely hazardous" sport. It's about people who intentionally perform a low turn under a good canopy, and get seriously injured or die as a result. I am a licenced scuba diver as well as a skydiver, and I am fully aware of the potential dangers of extreme sport. But the participants of these sports take precautions to minimize those dangers. And one of those is "don't exceed your own capabilities". If you screw up and get killed - no, it's not the sport's fault - but the sport and it's participants are tarnished. And I do NOT support the banning of hook turns. I support people acting responsibly... on the ground and in the air.But like I said earlier, we all have our own take on the issue, and that's a good thing! I'll bow out of this thread now, and just come back to read what else you all think. It's a good discussion...Live healthy, skydive safely.Frank Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #39 March 6, 2001 Quote I am a licenced scuba diver as well as a skydiver, Frank! Me too. All the more reason why you need some visitors in B.C. I've never been fresh-water diving before and am only *open water certified* as I haven't been able to afford (b/c of skydiving...he he he) my advanced scuba-course. But I don't have any friends that scuba-dive and I'm always getting buddied up on my trips with the scared newbie. Not that I dont' enjoy helping them out, ext. but it'd be VERY cool to dive with you sometime and be able to be a little more adventurous. What do you say???In relation to this thread, I think hook turns are very awesome to see in the canopy competitions, ext. by very experienced canopy pilots. All of these pilots had to start sometime, having never done one before but I agree with the remarks on this thread that there should be an element of instruction first and/or some sort of regulations for the safety of yourself and the other canopy pilot's around you. In my *opinion* you should have quite a bit of experience on many different canopies and really know how they perform. If someone wants to try a hook turn w/out much canopy experience at all, then really all we can do is pray for them b/c it is their own personal (although not the smartest) decision. That's my 2 centsMUCH LOVE AND BLUE SKIES!Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #40 March 6, 2001 < Frank! Me too. All the more reason why you need some visitors in B.C. I've never been fresh-water diving before and am only *open water certified* as I haven't been able to afford (b/c of skydiving...he he he) my advanced scuba-course. But I don't have any friends that scuba-dive and I'm always getting buddied up on my trips with the scared newbie. Not that I dont' enjoy helping them out, ext. but it'd be VERY cool to dive with you sometime and be able to be a little more adventurous. What do you say??? >Hey, Carrie - that sounds like fun! I've never done scuba in fresh water, either! Only snorkeling ... I live so close to the Pacific Ocean that my feet are getting wet just writing this... I know where a couple octopus dens are, where some wolf eels live... I've even shot underwater video of a sea lion! But I haven't done any scuba for a few years now ... I can't afford TWO expensive hobbies!!! Up here most divers wear drysuits, because the Pacific is mighty cold, but the variety of creatures to see is simply amazing!However, I do think diving in the warm waters off Florida with you would be wonderful!!! Next time I'm in town... Frank Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #41 March 6, 2001 QuoteUp here most divers wear drysuits, because the Pacific is mighty cold, but the variety of creatures to see is simply amazing!No can do on the cold-water diving. I've been spoiled on Gulf waters (e.g. Grand Cayman). Nothing like diving in just trunks & a t-shirt. My wife & I are gonna try to make it to Coz this fall.------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aviatrr 0 #42 March 6, 2001 Quote But I don't have any friends that scuba-dive and I'm always getting buddied up on my trips with the scared newbie. Not that I dont' enjoy helping them out, ext. but it'd be VERY cool to dive with you sometime and be able to be a little more adventurous. How experienced a diver are you? I've been out of diving for a while, but I am getting back into it.. There's so much awesome diving down here that I can't resist.. There's a group of us planning a trip down to the Keys in a couple months - probably 5 or 6 people - for some wreck diving.. If you may be interested, I'll update ya when we make firm plans..Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #43 March 6, 2001 Man. Seems like there's a fair number of scuba divers here as well. Boat or plane, I'll jump off it! We might have to get a scuba/skydiver club going here! People ask me which is better, scuba or skydiving. I tell them I can't choose. They're both great in their own ways.------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lazerq3 0 #44 March 6, 2001 Please take extreme caution however when being involed with scuba/skydiving. We would hate to read about someone burning in because they got confused and jumped outa the plane with an airtank or drown cause they jumped in the water with 30 some odd pounds of parchute equipment on there backjason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #45 March 6, 2001 Now you've gone and made me laugh out loud - at 12:45am!!! Hope I didn't wake the wife (just got home from playing hockey, so I'll be sure not to keep the hockey gear with the skydiving stuff - although the hockey gear is in an old scuba equipment bag... hmmmm... could be a problem! As long as I don't try to pull my pilot chute with my hockey gloves, I think everything SHOULD be ok...)Frank, the "sports enthusiast" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #46 March 6, 2001 Frank...Oh my gosh! Octopus dens??? Sea lions??? I'm there! I'm the opposite of you though and have only dived in the waaaaarrrm waters of the Carribean. I haven't been in over a year but I used to take trips out there w/ my family every spring and they'd do whatever and ALL I'd do was scuba-dive all day, every day. Usually we'd make 2 dives a day in locations fairly close to each other. I have't seen a whole lot of sea animals but I've seen the most beautiful reefs and fish and even a SHARK....I looooved the shark. I have never been off the coast of Florida though, ironic, huh?We will definitely plan a trip sometime!Much love and blue skies!Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #47 March 6, 2001 Zennie....Cozumel is my abosolute favorite spot to dive. I have dived in Jamaica, Caymen Islands, Paradise Island, and Cozumel and Coz is definitely my favoriteMUCH LOVE AND BLUE SKIES!Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #48 March 6, 2001 QuoteHow experienced a diver are you? probably 5 or 6 people - for some wreck diving.Mike, I'd LOVE to go. I've always wanted to do a wreck dive and haven't yet. How deep is it? I'm certified up to 60 feet deep although I've dived 80 feet before. Anything more requires an advanced liscense which I don't have. I'm not really experienced as I get to go only once a year but I've been enough times to have a real good feel for it. Like you, it's been over a year since I've been but my boyfriend wants to get certified as well so maybe I can get him certified in time and we can both come with you. I'd LOVE thatMuch love and blue skies!Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/PS...have you scuba-diers noticed just how many things in common scuba and skydiving have? Like the equalizing of the ears, ext.? Pretty cool. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PLFXpert 0 #49 March 6, 2001 HA HA HA, Lazerq! Too sweetMuch love and blue skies!Carrie http://www.geocities.com/skydivegrl20/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #50 March 6, 2001 QuoteI've always wanted to do a wreck dive and haven't yet. How deep is it?Wreck dives rock. I did the Oro Verde twice when I was in Grand Cayman. Once at night and once during the day. Also did the Doc Poulson. That one was fun 'cuz you could swim around in it Jacques Cousteau style. As far as depth goes, I'm advanced openwater, but a lot of folks do deep dives (and night dives for that matter) on their standard openwater license. When we were in Grand Cayman my wife regularly went below 100' with me and she's openwater. The narcosis kicking in freaked her a little the first time, but after that things were cool.QuotePS...have you scuba-diers noticed just how many things in common scuba and skydiving have? Like the equalizing of the ears, ext.?Yup. Noticed that the first jump. Funny thing is that my wife loves to scuba dive but is definitely a whuffo. I tell her she's as likely, if not more so, to die scuba diving than skydiving, but she doesn't believe me. ------------Blue Skies!Zennie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
