Work related ethical question.

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

In the military you rely on your team and if someone slacks off it can get someone killed. In the civilian world it's much more every-man-for-himself. The rare team that works well together is very nice, but you almost never encounter one.

It's probably best to keep your head down and worry about your own work. You can be pretty sure that the company DOES know who the slackers are. Most of the time they quit on their own. Otherwise don't be surprised if in the next round of layoffs, that's the guy who gets the axe. If you look at him as the fat that's going to get cut, it's still helping your actually productive team members.

Corporate politics can be infuriating and drive you insane if you let them. It's always better to stay out of that and let things take care of themselves. Rocking the boat pretty much always brings attention you don't want.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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trust me when I say that in hard times, the slackers are the first to go...

A jump buddy of mine works in a non-union steel fabrication shop. When they have a big project they hire on new guys. When things slow down they lay off the slackers, who are pretty obvious on the shop floor. After a few churns you get a pretty good crew. Many times I've envied that system.

[wmw999 2,171]

What they said -- document, document, document. Make it realtime -- the slight inconsistencies in wording etc. that make it clear that you did it realtime are what makes it convincing.

Most companies have a "report problems" person, website, etc, or an ethics coordinator. Try that person.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ryoder 1,410]

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You can be pretty sure that the company DOES know who the slackers are. Most of the time they quit on their own. Otherwise don't be surprised if in the next round of layoffs, that's the guy who gets the axe.

Not true in the places I've worked. Everything I've seen would indicate the layoff choices are totally random. Examples:

- At a large cable company, the clueless fools layed off the *only* guy who was doing telco circuit provisioning. By the time they finally put enough people on the job to catch up on the provisioning work-load, they had FOUR people replacing the guy they axed!

- At another company, the new VP went into his office and spent a few days totally re-organizing everything under him, with NO INPUT FROM THE EXISTING MANAGERS. He just drew a new org chart, populated it with names from the old org chart, then layed off anyone left over. The result was total chaos, and many responsibilities fell through the cracks because there was no one assigned to do them.

After 20 years in corp IT, I expect nothing but cluelessness from management, so nothing surprises me anymore.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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ent a few days totally re-organizing everything under him, with NO INPUT FROM THE EXISTING MANAGERS. He just drew a new org chart, populated it with names from the old org chart, then layed off anyone left over. The result was total chaos, and many responsibilities fell through the cracks because there was no one assigned to do them.

Reminds me of a company in SLC, UT I worked for. The dad built up the business from nothing, sent both sons to college. When they returned, they slowly drove the business into the ground with one dumb move after another.

[Bignugget 0]

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get used it

I dont think its unique to the civilian workplace either.

I struggle with the lack of intensity with some people at the place that pays for my jump tickets.

This.

Lol cmon man if you were in the military for 20 years you can't tell me this is the first time you have seen someone making more money than you and doing fuck all for it.

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

Huh. I've only been through a couple of layoffs, but both times they did actually get rid of the people who were either completely clueless or who had a reputation for slacking off. I was actually pretty surprised because there'd been no indication that management was paying that much attention. They act like it's practically impossible to fire a full time employee except during a layoff, even though I live in an "at-will" state.

Most of the time the slacker ends up leaving on their own. Those sorts of people need to keep moving, or their ineptitude eventually catches up with them.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[ChrisD 0]

The switch from a team oriented enviornment, to civi life is the most difficult thing (I) have ever done, (I) still can't say that this recruit has mastered at it,...

cya, cya,...

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[ChrisD 0]

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Huh. I've only been through a couple of layoffs, but both times they did actually get rid of the people who were either completely clueless or who had a reputation for slacking off. I was actually pretty surprised because there'd been no indication that management was paying that much attention. They act like it's practically impossible to fire a full time employee except during a layoff, even though I live in an "at-will" state.

Most of the time the slacker ends up leaving on their own. Those sorts of people need to keep moving, or their ineptitude eventually catches up with them.

Or ya find out it's the bosses cousin, or something that you didn't know about!!!

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[Nataly 38]

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What they said -- document, document, document. Make it realtime -- the slight inconsistencies in wording etc. that make it clear that you did it realtime are what makes it convincing.

Most companies have a "report problems" person, website, etc, or an ethics coordinator. Try that person.

Wendy P.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Of course you need to document a certain number of things, if only to protect yourself in the unfortunate event that someone is out to get you, or you need to prove your worth... But personally, I think focusing too much on other people takes time away from what *you* should be doing. How can you be efficient if you waste all your energy/time trying to prove this person is not pulling their weight?

Do your job. Other people will get ahead through unfair means, but hey... Life is not fair. Do your best and play the game and try to get your good work recognised. You'll go mental if you get upset every time you perceive an injustice - there are simply too many of them out there. You are new to this job; pick your battles wisely... My guess is this guy is not worth your time/energy.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[Andy9o8 0]

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You can be pretty sure that the company DOES know who the slackers are. Most of the time they quit on their own. Otherwise don't be surprised if in the next round of layoffs, that's the guy who gets the axe.

Not true in the places I've worked. Everything I've seen would indicate the layoff choices are totally random. Examples:

- At a large cable company, the clueless fools layed off the *only* guy who was doing telco circuit provisioning. By the time they finally put enough people on the job to catch up on the provisioning work-load, they had FOUR people replacing the guy they axed!

- At another company, the new VP went into his office and spent a few days totally re-organizing everything under him, with NO INPUT FROM THE EXISTING MANAGERS. He just drew a new org chart, populated it with names from the old org chart, then layed off anyone left over. The result was total chaos, and many responsibilities fell through the cracks because there was no one assigned to do them.

After 20 years in corp IT, I expect nothing but cluelessness from management, so nothing surprises me anymore.

Decades of experience has shown me that, unfortunately, confidence that slackers get cut while productive ones get kept on is usually naive and mis-placed. Sad to say, but all too often it's all political, and merit counts for nothing.

For example, sometimes I consult with large firms to help them design, and then manage, large-scale, major litigation support projects. These are the kind of projects that will hire about 50 lawyers and paralegals as subcontractors to work the project for a few months. The work is all done on computer, so we can (and do) track each contractor's production very minutely. All too often, when the project has to get pared-down into Phase 2 or 3, unproductive (sometimes shockingly so) slackers who have connections to some senior partner get kept-on to the next phase, right through to the end of the project. I'm talking about people who do so little work that the weekly timesheets they submit to get paid literally constitute fraud. And in the meantime, other people who've busted ass and done great work are part of the first groups of layoffs.

[Nataly 38]

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For example, sometimes I consult with large firms to help them design, and then manage, large-scale, major litigation support projects. These are the kind of projects that will hire about 50 lawyers as subcontractors to work the project for a few months. The work is all done on computer, so we can (and do) track each contractor's production very minutely. All too often, when the project has to get pared-down into Phase 2 or 3, unproductive (sometimes shockingly so) slackers who have connections to some senior partner get kept-on to the next phase, right through to the end of the project. I'm talking about people who do so little work that the weekly timesheets they submit to get paid literally constitute fraud. And in the meantime, other people who've busted ass and done great work are part of the first groups of layoffs.

This has not been my experience. Working for large firms that cared A LOT about the bottom line, every time I saw major redundancies, you can bet your bottom that the slackers DID go. I'm not talking about cutting a couple of people here - I'm talking we-need-to-survive-mode... And when it gets down to survival mode, you don't want people just because they are popular.

Of course *some* businesses make bad decisions... But a wise company tries to avoid these.

Like I said: life is NOT fair. Fucktards and losers and slackers get ahead WAY more than we would like to think. But I'm not convinced dwelling on this fact helps any.

"There is no problem so bad you can't make it worse."
- Chris Hadfield
« Sors le martinet et flagelle toi indigne contrôleuse de gestion. »
- my boss

[NWFlyer 2]

The only time I worry about how productive or unproductive someone else is, is when it impacts my ability to get my work done (or my team's ability to get its work done). In that case, I will first attempt to work directly with the person involved to figure out how to get the work out of them that I need to complete my work; if that doesn't work, I'll escalate to their manager. Otherwise, it's not my problem to solve and anything said winds up making me look bad.

Lots of times, I find that what I might perceive as productivity problems are due to competing priorities, or unclear expectations of what someone was supposed to do. That's why when I'm managing a project, I make it very clear what I need from people (or teams), how much time I expect it to take, and when it would need to be done. I get the commitment of their management that they can prioritize that work. That way, when we end up with an issue, we've got some clear expectations to go back to and negotiate from.

On my old team with my current company, there were peers of mine where I really did wonder what they did all day. I didn't see them actually produce any useful work, and I'm not really sure what value they added. From time to time, another (productive) peer and I would gossip a bit about it with each other, but we'd just keep our heads down and do our work well since we weren't actually relying on that peer for the work we were doing at the time.

Of course, both of us have moved on, partly because after a while of working on a team like that, you start to wonder how value is being measured; if you're working hard and working smart and producing good work that adds value, you start to feel under-valued if you see others on the team that don't appear to be doing much useful work (if any at all). You realize that in such an environment your growth opportunities are probably more limited if the organization isn't good at measuring actual contributions, so you move on. But whining about how "Joe over there isn't working as hard as me" doesn't do much but make you look like the bad guy, and as others have said, life ain't fair. Suck it up and do what you need to do to do well at your own work.

The team I'm on now (same company, different business unit) is all about results - clearly defining expectations for everyone on the team, and tracking the actual execution of the work and value delivered in pretty explicit ways. The expectations of me and the rest of the team are high, but everyone who stays with the group consistently meets those expectations. Sure, we've got some people who are more and less productive, but out and out slacking isn't going to happen, and the less productive folks are challenged to up their game or move on.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Bertt 0]

I worked for a company just like that for a while. The father had 3 sons. When the dad retired, the oldest son could have run the decades-old company real well by himself. With his brothers helping, the business only lasted a few more years.
to the OP: is this an exception ? Don't let it get to you. Is slacking off the rule in the company ? Don't burn your bridges, but start looking. Good luck.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[floridadiver81 0]

Thank you all for the advice and taking the time to share ya'lls stories and experiences. I've decided that I'm just going to look out for number 1. My productivity can be tracked individually so when the upper management looks at my profile and sees that I'm kicking butt....that's all that will matter!

"Age has absolutely nothing to do with knowledge, learning, respect, attitude, or personality." -yardhippie
"Fight the air, and the air will kick your ass!!! "-Specialkaye

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

When I took my first contracting job with IBM, the contracting manager took us newbies aide and told us, "They're going to tell you a lot of things about working here, but I'll tell you the most important one right now; Cover Your Ass." Of course, if you read between the lines, the easiest way to do that is to do the job that's expected of you. If everyone covers their ass in this way, then the company runs quite efficiently. IBM's a bit different from other companies I've worked for in that you can ask your manager for your job description and they can get the process book down off the shelf and show you exactly what's expected of you. The company has, what, about a century of experience running now? They have some quirks, but they're damn good at it.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[Andy9o8 0]

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"They're going to tell you a lot of things about working here, but I'll tell you the most important one right now; Cover Your Ass." Of course, if you read between the lines, the easiest way to do that is to do the job that's expected of you.

Definitely. In addition, it means doing so in a way that leaves/establishes a permanent, independently-reviewable record that you've done so. (Just be deft enough about it so that you don't appear to be brown-nosing.)

[wmw999 2,171]

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Definitely. In addition, it means doing so in a way that leaves/establishes a permanent, independently-reviewable record that you've done so. (Just be deft enough about it so that you don't appear to be brown-nosing.)

Regular status reports, boring though they may be, are exactly the right way to do that. Meet with your manager, come up with a format, and start documenting what you do.

Make sure you tie what you're doing to your company's goals, and you'll even give your manager fodder for their status report -- that makes their job easier, makes them look good, and is still part of doing your job rather than brown-nosing.

Wendy P.
(former manager)

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Trafficdiver 8]

If you want to keep that guy around, than say nothing.

If you want that guy to go and for someone better qualified who needs the job more to replace him, say something.

Really, looking out for #1 sometimes involves opening managements eyes to the shitty job someone else is doing.

I recently fired a guy who was throwing fits on sites we work on, smashing pipes, then scrapping them for cash. At our meeting he seemed honest (although an earlier incident should have opened my eye's) but some employees were telling me in private that he was a nut case and a thief.
Once I confronted him he threatened my life, and stormed out of the office.

Anyway, production went up as soon as he was gone and the morale of the rest of the installers improved.

Just trying to give you the boss side of things.