Older Gear

[SkinnyEd 0]

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Rigging is hard work for little profit.
.....
For $35.00 I'm not willing to take that risk. For what?
....

No argument with that!
I did my share of rigging when I was active, and it never paid well. (The going rate was about $10 then... which paid for a high load in the Beech and a little left over. But I was into it because it was a passion, not to make a buck.)

People do have to understand that the rigger is the one that puts his/her name on the card and is risking a whole lot of legal (and emotional) exposure doing that. I've had my share of hard feelings when I deemed a canopy to not be airworthy. Hey don't take it out on me! DZ owners, pilots, riggers, instructors, all are involved in a high risk activity involving a society that is increasingly litigious. You want to play? You have to do it by their rules. Don't like it? Move on down the road. (ie Freak Brothers)

I guess it's pretty clear these days that old gear is going to be a bit of a hassle to continue to use.
Same as maintaining an old car, no other choice than to accept the situation. Just the way it is.
The sky is blue, the grass grows, things change.

-Ed

[Airman1270 0]

>...I said the rig lacks pin protection, riser >protection, bridle protection, and the reserve >system is poor at best....


The pin protection is fine. The reserve system works very well. While riser covers are a nice touch, the lack of these does not render a rig "dangerous" or "not airworthy."

>...Vacum tubes work as designed...

Vacuum tubes...?


>...I said compare round malfunction stastics for >diapered and non-diapered rounds...

Why? I already know both types have their good & bad points, and odds are I knew this years before you did. I'm not asking you to jump it.


>I am offended that you called me prejudiced, even >though in your first post you are obviously >prejudiced against any rigger that refuses to pack >your 1977 Wonderhog.

I was not speaking to anyone specifically, but, yes, now that you mention it, I do think your harsh attitude is based on prejudice rather than a rational evaluation of a rig you've never seen. Besides, it's a 1978 rig. The reserve was manufactured in 1977. It worked just fine when I last used it in '97. I'm not afraid of it.

>

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How do these people rate a rigger's ticket if >they believe all equipment manufactured before >2000 is inherently dangerous?

Just having some fun. You had listed a number of perfectly fine rigs which were popular just a few years ago which you said you'd refuse to service.


>Simple solution for you: Get your Rigger's >certificate. It isn't that hard and not expensive. If >you have the time and money to skydive, you >have the time and money to get your certificate...

Awfully presumptuous, aren't we? I have family responsibilities, and manage to squeeze a few jumps a month around my kids, etc. Meanwhile, my wife bitches about all the time/money I spend at the DZ. Not that it'll never happen, but it won't happen this year. Good thing it's irrelevant to this discussion.


>If your rig is so great, why did you buy a modern >rig?...

That's a stupid question. It was finally time; besides, I was getting tired of being treated as some sort of circus freak whenever I strayed from my home DZ. Would have done it years ago, but the kids demand food, etc....


>...There are a lot of riggers that won't pack gear >older than 20-years old...

I know. That's why I asked the original question that started this thread.

>...I tried to answer your question why a rigger >wouldn't be willing to pack your rig. You seem to >take that answer as a personal insult and then try >to insult me and my abilities impling that I cannot >comprehend old gear and am biased against it for >no good reason...

You are. If you're going to quibble over riser covers or round vs. square reserves, I suspect you're operating from a viewpoint tainted by prejudice against older gear.

>Fatality rates have remained fairly constant, even >though there are a lot more jumps being made per >year than 20 years ago. The other difference is >the cause of fatalities. Rarely it is gear failure, >unlike 20 years ago...

Back then the majority of fatalities involved people going into the ground with at least one parachute still in the container. The vast majority of these incidents could have been avoided by pulling a ripcord. In 22 years I can count maybe two or three incidents in which the guy died doing everything right. At least one of these involved modern gear w/ a square reserve.

>...For $35.00 I'm not willing to take that risk...

You're certifying it as safe & airworthy, not as modern, good looking, or fool-proof. As long as you find nothing wrong with the rig, per the standards it was designed to, and you pack the reserve properly, what is it to you?

Check out a related thread in which someone listed several criteria regarding use, storage, etc. My rig passes by a wide margin.

>I would be more than willing to place your 2 rigs >side by side and show you the safety >improvements your new rig has over your old rig. I >think you'll be surprised...

The differences are primarily cosmetic. Riser covers and an RSL are nice, but not necessary for safe jumping. The bridle protection on both rigs is more than adequate.

Perhaps you reacted so strongly to my original post because there was a grain of truth to my claim regarding prejudice.

When did you make your first jump, anyway?

Thanks,
Jon

[PhreeZone 15]

Since I doubt Derek will repond in the fourms anymore...

>When did you make your first jump, anyway?

What does it matter? If some one made their first jump in 1960 or in 2004 they have the ability to rationally look at a piece of equipment and decide if they are willing to risk their entire life on signing off on a piece of equipment. If a rigger certifies something that is bad then they stand to loose all their possessions, their home and anything else that the estate wants to sue them for.

Knowing what I have been taught about gear once I get my ticket I will be refusing to sign off on some recent designs because I do not want to take the liability for them. The Reflex would not get my sign off since its WAY too easy to over tighten it after its out of my control with my seal on the rig. If the person bounces due to them or someone else over tightening the reserve it will be under my name and I'd be liable for it. I'd refer the jumper to someone else.

Same thing with any gear. The rigger has the choice to pack anything they want or to refuse to pack anything they don't want to. If I don't want to pack a rig that some one painted a design all over... oh well, its my decision.

Let me go get the Parachutists from the 80's I have at home, at least 2 or 3 fatalities in 1985 alone were due directly to gear failure. One was due to a capewell locking up and failing to release.

The Greene Star issue was due to people removing their mudflaps to save on weight, but some of the stiching used on the mudflaps was also used to prevent the reserve risers from peeling off.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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The pin protection is fine. The reserve system works very well. While riser covers are a nice touch, the lack of these does not render a rig "dangerous" or "not airworthy."

In your opinion, which when it comes to rigging, means nothing. It's not your certificate on the line. When it is, you can make that call.

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Vacuum tubes...?

Yes, vacum tubes. They work as designed but are now obsolete and cannot be used in aircrafgt radios anymore. Same reason the FAA won't allow vacum tubes, I won't pack a very old rig.

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Why? I already know both types have their good & bad points, and odds are I knew this years before you did. I'm not asking you to jump it.

No, you are asking why a rigger won't pack it. Even though it isn't my butt under the canopy, it is my butt on the line and my seal on the rig. I have a responsibility when I pack a reserve. I don't think you understand that.

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I was not speaking to anyone specifically, but, yes, now that you mention it, I do think your harsh attitude is based on prejudice rather than a rational evaluation of a rig you've never seen. Besides, it's a 1978 rig. The reserve was manufactured in 1977. It worked just fine when I last used it in '97. I'm not afraid of it.

I've seen old Wonderhogs. They have gone the way of vacum tubes.

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Just having some fun. You had listed a number of perfectly fine rigs which were popular just a few years ago which you said you'd refuse to service.

And I also gave a good reason why I wouldn't pack those rigs.

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It was finally time

It is finally time to let go of that old Wonderhog too.

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You're certifying it as safe & airworthy

Exactly. And I don't think an brand new 1970's Wonderhog is airworthy. My opinion and I've told you why. If you don't want to accept that, nothing I can do.

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You are. If you're going to quibble over riser covers or round vs. square reserves, I suspect you're operating from a viewpoint tainted by prejudice against older gear.

I am not arguing round vs. square. AGain you are not listening. I never said anything about round vs. square. I did say, several times about diapered vs. non-diapered rounds. You hear only what you want to hear and only listen to the answers you want to hear. Anything else is quibling.

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The differences are primarily cosmetic. Riser covers and an RSL are nice, but not necessary for safe jumping. The bridle protection on both rigs is more than adequate.

I n your opinion, not mine. But as a rigger, it's my oipinion that counts.

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Perhaps you reacted so strongly to my original post because there was a grain of truth to my claim regarding prejudice.

If I called you an insulting name and you took offense to it, could I then say you took offense to it because there was some truth to it? That's like saying someone is argumentative. If they try to defend themselves, you say, "See you are arguing now.

Derek

[wmw999 2,122]

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You're certifying it as safe & airworthy, not as modern, good looking, or fool-proof. As long as you find nothing wrong with the rig, per the standards it was designed to, and you pack the reserve properly, what is it to you?

It's his decision, that's what it is. He reserves the right to refuse service to equipment that he thinks has been sufficiently superseded. It's not a value judgement on you.

When I came back to the sport a few years ago, I jumped my 1983 Rapid Transit Mirage, with a round reserve (it was my third rig -- I've been around awhile too). I'd jump a round reserve in a heartbeat, but if someone else doesn't want to pack it, fine. I have plans to borrow a friend's Starlite to jump it again -- that's still possibly my favorite canopy.

A 1977 Wonderhog really has had a lot of technical improvements. It can certainly be used safely, but, well, I know of at least one fatality from a toggle getting loose because of the lack of riser protection. I have pictures of me in freefall with my pin cover loose because the velcro got old. It's not as good.

Would I continue to jump something like that if I couldn't afford anything else? Damn skippy I would. But I'd expect to get funny looks, and I'd invest some thinking in why the vast majority of people think the improvements are better. It might just be that I'm not the only person out there who's right.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[stratostar 5]

Yea like hook said, 'it's time to let that thing go".
Send it to me.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mjosparky 3]

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The rig is well-maintained and in excellent shape. Yet, I understand there are riggers who won't service it due to its age.

If this is true, why? As a rigger, are you not qualified to evaluate the airworthiness of a piece of equipment?

You can go back and forth with "he said this and he said that". Nothing is going to change.

To say that a rigger that does not agree with your appraisal of the gear in question is "not qualified" is pretty harsh.

Since none of us has had the opportunity to see the gear it could very well be in great shape or a piece of shit. All we have to go on is your opinion. And the fact is that when it comes to "evaluating the airworthiness of a piece of equipment" the FAA says your opinion does not count. So when all the bickering is done, the airworthiness of the gear in question is a decision that will be made by a rigger.

You don't have to like it or agree with it. Thats just the way it is.

Sparky

PS: The gear was manufactured 5 years before you made your first jump. Do you know how it was cared for during that 5 year period?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Airman1270 0]

Gee, coming to work in the morning is much more fun than ususal this week...

>...they have the ability to rationally look at a piece of equipment and decide if they are willing to risk their entire life on signing off on a piece of equipment...

That's precisely my point - he never looked at it.

NO rig can guarantee that an accident will never happen. The issue has to do with a variety of factors having nothing to do with its age. I'd be interested in seeing a debate between people like "Hook" and the riggers who have had no problem working for me.

I bought the rig from a guy who made a few jumps, then drifted out of the sport. He stored it in a closet for about seven years before putting it up for sale in PARACHUTIST. A national magazine, and he sold it to someone who lived two miles away.

When I took it to my rigger, he was astonished at how new & fresh it was. The rig had fewer than 100 jumps on it. It currently has about 700. My Strato Cloud has about 300.

"Hook" compared the rig to the Wright Flyer. A better analogy would be the P-51: Long since outclassed, but the best of its kind back when it was introduced. I'll bet no one gives Bill Dause any grief for flying his Mustang.

Of course nobody is obligated to pack ANY rig. No debate there.

What I'd like to know is: If you inspect the rig, affirm that it's in fine shape, and I later have an accident, How is that your responsibility? After all, you did your job.

If there's something wrong with it and you place your seal on it, I could understand how you might have a problem. But if everything's in order, how does this translate into a threat to your livlihood, etc.?

If this is the case, then it applies to ALL rigs.

Thanks again,
Jon

[Hooknswoop 19]

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That's precisely my point - he never looked at it.

And you don’t listen. I said: “Exactly. And I don't think an brand new 1970's Wonderhog is airworthy. My opinion and I've told you why. If you don't want to accept that, nothing I can do.”

Is it in better than new condition?

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It currently has about 700. My Strato Cloud has about 300.

I guess ‘no’ then.

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Of course nobody is obligated to pack ANY rig. No debate there.

Clearly there is or else why are you debating?

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What I'd like to know is: If you inspect the rig, affirm that it's in fine shape, and I later have an accident, How is that your responsibility? After all, you did your job.

Because it isn’t in fine shape. A brand new vacuum tube is in fine shape, but it still isn’t legal to use in aircraft radios. It’s just too old. Solid state electronics are vastly superior.

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If there's something wrong with it and you place your seal on it, I could understand how you might have a problem. But if everything's in order, how does this translate into a threat to your livlihood, etc.?

If this is the case, then it applies to ALL rigs.

Exactly, it does. Part 65.129 says: No certificated parachute rigger may --
(a) Pack, maintain, or alter any parachute unless he is rated for that type;
(b) Pack a parachute that is not safe for emergency use;

So, yes it applies to all rigs.

My policy: “Gear Life Span

* This loft will not work on sport gear over 20 years old.
 This loft will not work on pilot emergency gear over 25 years old.”

I don’t care if you have a rig still in the plastic. At some point a rig is too old. You said it’s not like I’m jumping a silk canopy. What if that silk canopy was in brand-new condition, would you be wining most riggers wouldn’t pack that? Or would you realize that it is simply too old? What is your opinion of how old is too old for gear?

There has to be a cut-off somewhere. You don’t like that mine is 20-years for sport gear. Too bad. That’s my decision as a rigger.

There is a lot of responsibility that goes w/ sealing a rig that from your “I’m not asking you to jump it” statement, that you don’t seem to understand. You hear what you want to hear, even when it is written for you to read. I wrote, "Compare the stastics between diapered vs. non-diapered round reserves" You wrote, "He also says rounds are dangerous, etc" I never said that.

You said "my rig to be a dangerous piece of crap" I never said that either.

Maybe the reason this bothers you so much is you feel by my saying your old Wonderhog isn't airworthy because it is too old, you think I am saying you are unairworthy because you are too old. To clarify, that is not what I am saying at all. It isn't personal.

Again, don’t ask questions you don’t want to hear the answers to.

I’m done. I’ve answered your question. Now you can either accept it or not.

Derek

[Airman1270 0]

You are free to establish whatever policies you want. But your position is based on prejudice against older gear.

You have not backed up your claim that my old classic rig is dangerous. You have simply explained why you "think" it's dangerous, and your explanation is based on little else than the fact that better gear has since been invented.

The fact that you cited your instructor rating as a professional qualification to determine the airworthiness of a rig you've never seen did little to enhance your credibility.

So, when did you make your first jump?

Jon

[stratostar 5]

And I don't think an brand new 1970's Wonderhog is airworthy. I don’t care if you have a rig still in the plastic (quote)

I disagree, but thats just me.I just put together a 1977 B-4 H/C brand new, took it out of the plastic myself, still has that "new car" smell, I put a 1964 switlik T-10 in it that I own, it has never been deployed and is brand new condition.
I still don't understand the thinking as to why some riggers won't touch a rig just because of age.
If I showed you this B-4 rig you would think it was made last week till you saw the D.O.M.
But hey to each their own.If stops raining I'm going to jump it this weekend...


.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[PhreeZone 15]

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The fact that you cited your instructor rating as a professional qualification to determine the airworthiness of a rig you've never seen did little to enhance your credibility.

I know Hook does not need defending, but I've had a canpoy repaired by Hook. He is hands down one of the best riggers I've seen. I mailed a canopy from Ohio to Colorado just so he could fix it since I knew it was going to be a very complicated repair. I know the factory could not have done the repair better then what he did.


If you are not jumping a cotton harness and a silk canopy with a belly wart you are just as prejudiced against older gear since newer gear is on the market. At one time the KAP3 was a state of the art ADD, if you tried to get one packed now you'd be laughed out the door. Same with an SSE Sentinal. Thats from the same era and even if it was new in box you would be extremely hard pressed to find anyone willing to even touch one.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Airman1270 0]

>...He is hands down one of the best riggers I've seen...


Thanks. I questioned his judgement, but not his competence. I apologize for leaving the impression I might have thought he had not earned his rigger rating.

I've always respected riggers, and "Hook" is no exception. If he was willing to work for me I'd trust any piece of equipment that passed through his hands.

Jon

[mjosparky 3]

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You have not backed up your claim that my old classic rig is dangerous. You have simply explained why you "think" it's dangerous,

And you have not backed up your claim that it is not dangerous. The FAA has determined that what he "thinks" counts and what you think doesn't. At least in this case.

So now, what is your point.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[sundevil777 93]

How in the world would people be able to expose themselves to much greater risk than necessary with very little reward doing organized 'gut gear' jumps with riggers like you?

I think Snohomish does it regularly, probably some other DZs also.

I think they should watch some old videos instead.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[stratostar 5]

very little reward doing organized 'gut gear' jumps
(quote)

The reward is getting to see the looks on the young pups faces as they climb out in that stuff, I mean floating 6 outside an otter with belly warts on, you might say they "white eyed" me.


.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[riggerrob 558]

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And I don't think an brand new 1970's Wonderhog is airworthy. I don’t care if you have a rig still in the plastic (quote)

I disagree, but thats just me.I just put together a 1977 B-4 H/C brand new, took it out of the plastic myself, still has that "new car" smell, I put a 1964 switlik T-10 in it that I own, it has never been deployed and is brand new condition.
I still don't understand the thinking as to why some riggers won't touch a rig just because of age.
If I showed you this B-4 rig you would think it was made last week till you saw the D.O.M.
But hey to each their own.If stops raining I'm going to jump it this weekend...


.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Did you sew a diaper on that T-10 canopy?

If there is no diaper, I am not repacking that rig.



What about a 4-line release?

Again, no 4-line release means a configuration that CSPA banned more than 20 years ago and I am not repacking that either.
(Hint: both retrofit kits are available from Butler Parachute Systems.)

If I sound arrogant and biased against old gear, it is because my first reserve ride was on a no-diapered, non-steerable T-10 reserve, back in 1979.

[stratostar 5]

NOPE it's a T-10 main with sleave in a B-4
the belly wart has a diper on it, 26ft navy.

.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mjosparky 3]

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NOPE it's a T-10 main with sleave in a B-4
the belly wart has a diper on it, 26ft navy.

.

Same questions: Does the 26' navy have a diaper on it or are the lines stowed in the container? Does it have a 4 line release. Does it still have the water pockets on it?

My first reserve was a 24' flat, unmodified and without a diaper. That is one scary mess coming out.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[LiveLifeGoJump 0]

Wow, raised a bit heated discussion with this thread.

No reserve packer should be forced to pack equipment (new or old) if he does not wish to regardless of whether his reasons are walid, but he should not ground/condem as unsafe any equipment because of age etc.

Any equipment that meets the standards set at the time of production AND any new standards introduced by the relavant controling body & is certified & packed etc. should be cleared to be jumped. Finding someone willing to do this will only get harder.

The problem will come when NO ONE is willing to do this. Should a advanced packer, rigger or examiner be forced to do so is another matter.

A system is in place (in the UK) to cope with vintage cars. Providing the braking system operates as it was designed to a modern car will 'stop on a sixpence' from 70 mph whereas the vintage car (if it were capable of that speed) would be lucky to stop in the same county (state).

A lot has been mentioned about vacumn tubes not being allowed in aircraft radios but is this a fair comparison. Solid state IS more relyable and vacuum tubes DO suffer from heat & vibration (there's a lot more involved, to much to discuss here) but this comparasson can't be made with the material parachute equipment is made of.

If you don't want to pack/jump old equipment then fair enough but don't use that as an excuse to stop others.

MY THOUGHTS. If you choose to be a part of the system that controls/regulates equipment standards then you SOULD be prepared to inspect/pack etc. any equipment that meets the system standards. ALL reserve packers ARE part of the SYSTEM.
Just MY thoughts, feel free to agree or disagree.

Get out, Land on a green bit. If you get the pull somewhere in between it would help.

[airtwardo 6]

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Same questions: Does the 26' navy have a diaper on it or are the lines stowed in the container?

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By stowed in the container...
you mean ALL the lines go on the diaper?

Or just the stows keeping it closed?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 3]

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Same questions: Does the 26' navy have a diaper on it or are the lines stowed in the container?

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By stowed in the container...
you mean ALL the lines go on the diaper?

Or just the stows keeping it closed?

What I meant was if it does not have a diaper the lines are usually stowed in the bottom of the container.

You remember how it was done on an old chest mount, stow the lines in stow bands attached to the container and S-fold the canopy on top of the lines. There is no method of staging the deployment in an orderly manner.

Attached is a picture of a chest mount deployment that was packed in this manner.

From PPM Vol. I, page 569:
OBSOLETE ITEM: An object or item which is no longer considered acceptable. One which has been superseded.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[stratostar 5]

To tell the truth I put so many warts together for the all round jump at the Richmond Boogie I can't remember for sure on that wart in question, we have many of them most are full diper but if i recall a couple of the strongs are just locked with stows and the rest in the tray.
We even got a "death diper" from good old Bill cole,
you know the one with the pin attached on the line.
It's in a rig of a long time rigger, just have to put the pin in the right way!
I do know come spring time when all of them are due a repack I'll see them all again.
.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Hooknswoop 19]

Would you pack it if it didn't have a diaper? (yes/no)

Derek

[Airman1270 0]

...And you have not backed up your claim that it is not dangerous...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Actually, I have. I described the relatively low number of jumps on the rig, as well as the manner in which it's been stored. I also noted that a number of local riggers have had no problem servicing the gear for me.

If you insist (sight unseen) that my old rig is a hole in the ground waiting to happen, than you are making slanderous accusations against the integrity of the Relative Workshop, as well as the riggers who have known this gear more intimately than anyone participating in this discussion.

Jon