VERSLECIEL 0 #1 October 1, 2004 I'm just looking for some advice...I'm not sure how to proceed, or if I should even do anything after what happened to me this weekend.....I'm new to the sport, and I'm just curious as to what other people have to say.... Last year I bought a rig from a dropzone I used to jump at. When I bought the rig I new NOTHING about the sport and just trusted the people at my dropzone to tell me exactly what it was I was getting. Well, in the past two weeks I have discovered that the owner of the rig and the rigger lied to me about certain stats (For example, I was told I had a PD reserve, it was actually a tempo). I realize that it is my responsibility to know what I'm buying, but as a complete newbie to the sport...I had no clue. This weekend I had a cutaway. I lost the D-ring and have to get it replaced. There was a lot of confusion because the rig that I have was not made with an RSL, so I was sent a d-ring for a rig without an RSL........Thing is the rigger modified the rig so that there was one. After talking with the riggers at my new dropzone and Realtive Workshop, it seems as if the rigger modified the rig in several ways (to make it more freefly friendly), and according to my new dropzone, my rig has now been deemed ILLEGAL to jump. (apparantly the rigger never wrote down any of the modifications-and you are supposed to?- so no one knew to check out the RSL on the container.....) SO i'm super frustrated. I wanted to sell this rig in order to afford a newer, better rig, but now I can't sell the rig, and I can't even jump the rig!! I'm upset that the owner and the rigger lied to me about the stats of the rig. And I can't believe that this rigger, who is a MASTER rigger and apparantly world renknowned, made illegal modifications on my rig!! It's too late to get money back for this rig, but what am I supposed to do? I can't do anything with it now......and is it wrong of me to want him to lose his license??? Do any of you have any suggestions?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #2 October 1, 2004 Caveat emptor---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #3 October 1, 2004 send the rig to the oem and have them make what ever adjustments you want made and after they're finished it'll be TSO'd. it would be helpful if you would fill in your profile so responders could better help with your question(s) by knowing what kind of container, dom...etc. hopefully you are aware that master riggers must be certified and can be sanctioned if in fact actions as you describe actually occured. not doubting your word, but there are always two sides to every story. good luck.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #4 October 1, 2004 Unfortunately, I've seen this before. Here in Canada, you don't need a TSO so some riggers get creative knowing that a TSO will be voided! If this Rigger is an FAA Master Rigger, he is not allowed to alter equipment without the express permission of the manufacturer. Doing so is contrary to the priviledges of his certificate. A master Rigger (or any other rigger for that matter)cannot just do whatever he want's and think that the rules don't apply to him! That's the type of arrogant rigging that gets people killed! This should be reported and dealt with. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VERSLECIEL 0 #5 October 1, 2004 What does TSO mean? And also...people have said that I should have been more informed on what I was buying, but if you can't trust a Master Rigger to tell you what your buying...who can your trust? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #6 October 1, 2004 All equipment manufactured in the US must meet TSO(Technical Standards Order) C23 series. It is a guideline establishing a number of criterea that equipment must meet to be suitable for use in skydiving. The TSO is applied to the container and reserve parachute.Manufacturers put their equipment through rigorous testing to comply with the TSO. An unapproved alteration can void the TSO making it unairworthy in the US. An FAA rigger who certifies this equipment airworthy for a US citizenh in the US is in violation of the Federal Aviation Regulations. Also, monkeying around with gear and altering its function is never a good idea unless the designers of the equipment have tested and approved the modification. If they haven't, then that rigger is expirementing .... with your life on the line! I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #7 October 1, 2004 talk to a lawyer about the misrepresentation of the type and condition of the gear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,434 #8 October 1, 2004 > talk to a lawyer about the misrepresentation of the type and condition of the gear. I can remember a time when skydivers didn't sue other skydivers. I think that time has passed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,148 #9 October 1, 2004 Naw, just send someone over for a good ass-kicking, and let us know who it is. Because, with the information that we have (which isn't all of it), this sucks. Misleading newbies is very bad karma. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VERSLECIEL 0 #10 October 1, 2004 I'm not looking to sue anyone here, but I just think what the rigger did was uncalled for, and if he is doing this to other people's equipment then something should be done. The riggers here say that the RSL modification is safe, but since it has not been approved by the factory (and it won't be...it's a Vector conatiner..but the modification done is not for a vector container...)it's unairworthy. And now I have a useless container....... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflyfree 0 #11 October 1, 2004 Quote> talk to a lawyer about the misrepresentation of the type and condition of the gear. I can remember a time when skydivers didn't sue other skydivers. I think that time has passed I used to think that skydiving was the place were (metaphoricaly speaking) litigious-type people came to die..., but hey if your rig works ok and no safety related stuff has been compromised...well, I know people in south america that would be happy to buy the rig from you if you're asking a good price for it...the jumping scene is such that you can go about your whole life without thinking TSOed, FAA, USPA, Lawyers...just living to do some good old jumps ....cloud layer??? what?? we got GPS' don't we?? I know it might sound crazy...but "crazy" is what legends are made of Felipe-- Blue Skies NO FEARS, NO LIMITS, NO MONEY... "A Subitánea et Improvísa Morte, Líbera nos, Domine." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #12 October 1, 2004 QuoteAnd now I have a useless container....... it's not useless. send it in for repairs and have it recertified by the oem. you have a good container, it just needs some tlc.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #13 October 1, 2004 I think it's sad that someone would misrepresent gear they're selling to a newbie just because the newbie doesn't know any better. If they told him he was getting a PD reserve and didn't deliver that reserve, he should get his money back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 October 1, 2004 Quote> talk to a lawyer about the misrepresentation of the type and condition of the gear. I can remember a time when skydivers didn't sue other skydivers. I think that time has passed. I can remember a time when skydivers didn't cheat skydivers. That time too has passed.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VERSLECIEL 0 #15 October 1, 2004 Well....it's kind of an old container so I would rather spend the money to repair it on a new rig. And had the rigger done his job properly like he should have, I wouldn't need to pay to repair it. Thanks for all of your comments....I appreciate the advice.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #16 October 1, 2004 I know jumpers and even riggers that view newbies as a dumping ground for bad gear. I've heard instructors say things like "you're good at accuacy, I've got some gear perfect for you" and then I see them next week jumping an old pegasus pony that flares like a brick. A rigger I know once sold a guy a Fury claiming it had 400 jumps. A buddy of mine told me later that he put 400 jumps on it himself ... and he never even owned the gear, it was old DZ crap that sat around the dropzone! The lines had been repaired in an overlap that just begged for a slider hangup. There are some jumpers/instructor/riggers that take advantage of the faith newbies have in them to make a couple of bucks and that's not rightI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VERSLECIEL 0 #17 October 1, 2004 And what's more frustrating is that the owner of the rig is a DZO....so whether or not he knew about the mods, I feel that he should know about his rigger. We'll see....I'm going to call them this weekend and hear their story.....in the meantime I have to rent gear (agh!).....cause I'm going to MOAB!!!!! Thanks again.....Have a great weekend..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #18 October 1, 2004 I agree with you. I was very, very lucky that when I bought my gear, I had some good people looking out for me. Lord knows I didn't know what the heck I was doing. I had 18 jumps. (much thanks to Raoul and John and Shelly at Perris and Kama and Robert at Elsinore!) It's sad when someone takes advantage of someone who doesn't have the experience to know better...someone needs to ensure that such advantage-taking ceases to remain profitable. Perhaps then it would happen less often. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #19 October 1, 2004 QuoteQuote> talk to a lawyer about the misrepresentation of the type and condition of the gear. I can remember a time when skydivers didn't sue other skydivers. I think that time has passed. I can remember a time when skydivers didn't cheat skydivers. That time too has passed. sad, isn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveNFlorida 0 #20 October 1, 2004 QuoteIf this Rigger is an FAA Master Rigger, he is not allowed to alter equipment without the express permission of the manufacturer. Doing so is contrary to the priviledges of his certificate. There are plenty of master riggers out there who add bridal coverage to older rigs, etc., and no one is revoking anyone's ticket for it. So, where exactly is the line? What is OK for a master rigger to do, and what is not? I can't see a master rigger putting his ticket on the line to do a 20$ mod. Angela. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #21 October 1, 2004 Technically, you would have to call the manufacturer to perform any alteration. There is certainly a difference between sewing on a flap to cover a main bridle and installing a non-approved mod to the reserve deployment system. Mods to the main that prevent deployment are usually not fatal if done incorrectly. If you F*** up a reserve or harness, people die.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #22 October 2, 2004 No, technically you do not have to call the manufacturer first. The people who issued the TSO in the first place (the FAA) can and will issue a letter of authorization for a field appproval. In other words,They(the FAA) can elect to have changes made as their engineering group sees fit to equipment previously certified by a manufacturer without their approval or suggestions. The Master rigger should have the letter of autorization on file as required by law. You should contact the master who did the work and see if he has the proper paperwork. Hope that helps you, MEL Skyworks Parachute ServiceSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #23 October 2, 2004 I think this covers it. Part 65.129 No certificated parachute rigger may— (d) Alter a parachute in a manner that is not specifically authorized by the Administrator or the manufacturer; (e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute; My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ncrowe 0 #24 October 2, 2004 Quote> talk to a lawyer about the misrepresentation of the type and condition of the gear. I can remember a time when skydivers didn't sue other skydivers. I think that time has passed. Was it around the same time skydivers didn't rip off other skydivers? I'm a low jump number and know nothing about TSo's etc, but it he sold him a tempo and flat lied to him about it ,its just plain wrong. personaly I wouldn't sue, but I'd sure go have a little talk with the rigger and if need be his employer if he works out of a DZ. And if it came down to it I'd leave a burning bag of dog poo on his front porch "Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #25 October 2, 2004 QuoteNo, technically you do not have to call the manufacturer first. To get picky, it is the manufacturer or the administrator. But I think that's splitting hairs, if you're not going to call the manufacturer to make sure a mod is ok, are you going to go through the FSDO to get it done? I left out the administrater, not because I'm ignorant of 65.129 d, but because it's academic. There is 2 things that piss me off here. First, it's the arrogance of some rigger to think he can "do no wrong". As my DPRE once told me, we don't have the luxary of learning from our mistakes. The second is using newbies as a dumping ground for tired and altered gear. I'm sure we've all seen a newbies with gear that should have been retired years ago. Jumping clouds, Nimbus' and pegasus ponys (all good canopies in thier day). Claiming that the main has a couple hundred jumps but is more pourus than cheese cloth! I knew a girl who was sold a bagged out pegasus she loaded quite high. She broke an ankle on her second jump. I also know a guy who thought it was cool that most riggers wouldn't pack his reserve because it had been grounded years ago. He just had to take it to the right person. This is one of my hot buttons. I've seen to much crap, and too much bad rigging!I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
