Getting stable after cut away - Altitude?

[hcsvader 1]

For those of you that jump without an RSL,with the idea that you want to regain stability before deploying your reserve.

At what altitude do you find this to be a safe option?
At what altitude would you want to deploy your reserve regardless of stability or body position?

With that, what altitudes are you normally deploying your main at?

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[piisfish 135]

please define stability

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[virgin-burner 1]

usually open at 800-900 meters..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[hcsvader 1]

Stability as in not turning or spinning, as in you are in control of what is happening.
I said stability or body position because you could be stable in any body position, belly, back, HD, whatever.

Discuss all possibly out comes and what you would do in each situation.

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[Springbock 0]

here is an example how not to do it ;-)

After an uneventful AFF Jump I experienced a spinning malfunction. I chopped the Main quiet high (2000ft)
Before going for silver I turned to Belly Position but had still some momentum turning right which than resulted in an Linetwist of the Reserve.
The reason I did not first stopped turning before firing the Reserve is that I was unsure about my Altitude as I had no idea at what altitude I had set my ditter to
I learn from this experience that altitude awareness is the factor to succes but also that a Linetwist in a Reserve is not a Big deal with enough altitude. The Video shows how easy it was to kick out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9pBQk88kp4

Take care up there!

[danornan 65]

Waiting to get "stable" after a cutaway, in my opinion, is a quick way to die! Seems like several people die every year with what appears to be this attitude.

By the time you have checked your altitude, to see if you are at, what ever your hard deck is, you have most likely exceeded it and will, if you are very lucky, have a little bit of line stretch as you meet the ground!

Your mind has slowed down but your body is still moving quite fast. How long does it take to determine your altitude and then act? How far have you traveled in this time? How long does it take for your reserve to slow you down?

I don't really know the exact time and distance to these questions, but I do know that as soon as I cutaway, my reserve is open and working. Something is always better than nothing in this situation.

Dano

[DocPop 1]

My opinion is that this is spurious reason for disconnecting an RSL.

If you have time/altitude to get stable after a cutaway, then you have MORE time to deal with reserve linetwists if you use an RSL because you are not in freefall.

My hard deck is 2,000'. If I pass through that altitude with an unresolved mal, I am going to cutaway - even if I only have half a linetwist left. I like to deploy the main at around 4,000'.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[airtwardo 6]

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Waiting to get "stable" after a cutaway, in my opinion, is a quick way to die! Seems like several people die every year with what appears to be this attitude.

By the time you have checked your altitude, to see if you are at, what ever your hard deck is, you have most likely exceeded it and will, if you are very lucky, have a little bit of line stretch as you meet the ground!

Your mind has slowed down but your body is still moving quite fast. How long does it take to determine your altitude and then act? How far have you traveled in this time? How long does it take for your reserve to slow you down?

I don't really know the exact time and distance to these questions, but I do know that as soon as I cutaway, my reserve is open and working. Something is always better than nothing in this situation.

I disagree.

Is an RSL a useful back-up devise?
Yes in 'most' instances it works as designed and adds a bit of a safety margin...QUITE a benefit, especially for those with marginal skills and/or those tending to be lacking in altitude awareness.

Personally I don't use one, in many of the types of jumps I do I don't WANT the reserve coming out until I tell it to...and since I only want one set of EP's in my minuscule memory bank, I go without on all jumps.

I KNOW that I will be fully responsible for the reserve pulling part of any malfunction I incur and plan accordingly.

Even at my advancing age and declining health I'm pretty quick at determining what's going on and how to deal with it.

I usually pull at 2500'...My gear is very consistent, if a high speed is taking place I know it by 2000' and go with plan B.

If a slow speed is experienced, I try ONE TIME to correct the problem, and failing that ~ Plan B.

If for whatever reason I find myself going faster than land-able at or under 1000'....plan B, foregoing main release.

Procedure is simple and parts of it are practiced weekly... recognise & evaluate, look at both handles one hand per, knees at a 90 & head back then chop, (one fluid motion) face to earth stability is near instantly achieved.
Insuring shoulders are square I start to bring my knees up putting me into a sitting position allowing clean air to the spring loaded pilot-chute, and punch silver.

My last cut-away was the result of a failed riser during a demonstration jump, the main was of course spinning violently, less than two revolution in I chopped and went whistling sideways shot out of a cannon - past another jumper who was opening slightly below and to the right of me.

I waited until clear of him and his flight path and THEN fired the reserve...would we have entangled had I been using an RSL?
Maybe ~ Maybe Not...sure was nice to be able to fall past and not roll the dice!

I've used my procedure successfully 14 times in the last 35 years...I fully realize 'my' system will put me lower than someone using an RSL in the exact same situation.

I compensate by removing any 'fuck around factor' knowing I need to be altitude aware both before AND during deployment, and get the warm fuzzies deploying the reserve in a controlled manner having correct body orientation.

When I'm down to my last bullet I'd prefer to give it the absolutely BEST possible position to launch from.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[sundevil777 94]

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My last cut-away was the result of a failed riser

Many don't think about the possibility of this scenario and how it can go very bad if a conventional RSL is used. No problem of course if a Collins SL is used as on a skyhook, or some of the other mechanisms that help to ensure both risers are gone before the RSL can pull the reserve pin.

I realize that a failure of a riser is not likely, but it does happen and not just to those that neglect their gear. I acknowledge that I'm more likely to fail pulling my reserve than have the 'wrong' side riser fail and result in an entanglement, but it is part of the rationale that can lead experienced jumpers (for instance, with several successful emergency situations already) to reasonably conclude that an RSL is not for them.

Anyway, some will say that CRW or camera are the only valid reasons for not using an RSL, but I think there are other valid reasons.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[danornan 65]

For those still in denial: This was posted today in the incident section - I know the situation is never the same, and many very experiences skydivers all have THEIR system, but more times than not, the outcome seems to be!

Ironic that this too happned at Perris.


From: Rick Horn
Subject: 5000+ jumps, saved by RSL
Date: 1997/00/03

I got saved by,a backup device (RSL) on Thursday. August 28th. I thought I’d relay the formation
My background: 5000+ jumps, 107 cutaways, (No I don’t need to learn how to back, a lot of test jumps and films.) About 20 unplanned cutaways.
21 years jumping, AFF I/E, static Line I/E, Full time instructor at Perris, AFF Course Director for USPA.
Equipment Background: Rig- Javelin, Articulated harness (Rings top and bottom), RSL and Cypres equipped. Soft Reserve pillow, Main, Stiletto 135. Reserve- PDI43R, I wear my leg straps and chest strap quite tight.

The jump: A great APP Level 4, the student did well, I watched deployment on the student’s canopy, and hung around to give a thumbs up forte camera. This put everything happening a little lower than usual, so I threw the main out at about 2100, as opposed to the usual 2500 since I’ve gotten older and hopefully wiser. The main opened into a severe spin. There were no line twists, but I don’t know what caused the spin, as I could not see the left side of the canopy. After the usual playing around with It, I decided to get rid of it. My procedures are grab cutaway, grab reserve, pud cutaway, pull reserve.
I went for the cutaway handle, and to my surprise, it was on the LEFT side of my chest I grabbed it, and reached for the reserve handle. It was somewhere under my left armpit I could only touch it with my thumb, and not grab it. My theory is that a combination of the severe spin and the articulated harness allowed the handles to move so far.
I had also practiced hooking my thumb between the reserve pillow and the housing. I was unable to do it. I then pulled the cutaway handle, as I was not accomplishing anything in my attempt to find the reserve handle.

After pulling the cutaway, I continued to search for the reserve pillow. I was unable to find it. I theorize that it tucked under the main lift web as the harness slid back into position That theory took a couple of days to figure out. Being honest, I have my sincere doubts that I would have found the handle within the 6 seconds of working time that I had left.

My ML prevented me from knowing the answer.
I have since modified my rig to include a standard ripcord on the reserve. This should also serve as a reminder that backup devices, whether they be ML or AAD can save your life, no matter what your experience. Please don’t make this into a debate thread, there have been enough. I just wanted to share the experience, so people could make informed decisions. Rick Horn
D-6277 AFFI/E
USPA APP Course Director

Dano

[billvon 2,434]

>here is an example how not to do it ;-)

>After an uneventful AFF Jump I experienced a spinning malfunction. I chopped the
>Main quiet high (2000ft)
>Before going for silver I turned to Belly Position but had still some momentum turning
>right which than resulted in an Linetwist of the Reserve.

That is _exactly_ how you should have done it. Waiting to get stable kills people. Line twists on reserves don't.

[sundevil777 94]

I remember that incident from back when he first posted it, have known him since the early 80s, when he was free packing his main.

I just have different 'weighting' factors concerning what I want to be in control of, and what I am willing to let be automated. I have used my reserve in a number of very different circumstances - high speed, low speed and total mals (damn tapewells!). After I'd made several jumps, I would even disconnect the RSL (stevens line) on my gut gear - I didn't want that big metal handle hitting me in the face! At least back then there was a cross-connector on the risers. I also would unplug the Sentinel (didn't trust that). I guess I'm not a very good example for newbies nowadays, but the gear was different (it didn't inspire confidence), and the expectation for knowledge about gear was different.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[airtwardo 6]

After pulling the cutaway, I continued to search for the reserve pillow. I was unable to find it.

[DocPop 1]

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Use a big honkin' ass, east to see, hard to tuck under...METAL reserve ripcord handle.

That's not a 100% safe answer either though. Metal D-handles are easier to dislodge on climb-out leaving you with a possible reserve over the tail situation.

There is always a compromise somewhere where gear is concerned.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billvon 2,434]

>Metal D-handles are easier to dislodge on climb-out leaving you with a possible
>reserve over the tail situation.

Has this ever happened?

[DocPop 1]

I have seen at least 2 (possibly 3) metal D-handles dislodged on climb-out. None of them (fortunately) resulted in a reserve deployment - but the risk is there.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[wmw999 2,148]

Dang -- what kind of people do you jump with? I don't think I've seen that many, and since I do RW mostly, we have people climbing all over the airplane when they float!

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[JanuszPS 0]

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Personally I don't use one, in many of the types of jumps I do I don't WANT the reserve coming out until I tell it to...and since I only want one set of EP's in my minuscule memory bank, I go without on all jumps.

I KNOW that I will be fully responsible for the reserve pulling part of any malfunction I incur and plan accordingly.

Even at my advancing age and declining health I'm pretty quick at determining what's going on and how to deal with it.

I usually pull at 2500'...My gear is very consistent, if a high speed is taking place I know it by 2000' and go with plan B.

If a slow speed is experienced, I try ONE TIME to correct the problem, and failing that ~ Plan B.

If for whatever reason I find myself going faster than land-able at or under 1000'....plan B, foregoing main release.

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I compensate by removing any 'fuck around factor' knowing I need to be altitude aware both before AND during deployment, and get the warm fuzzies deploying the reserve in a controlled manner having correct body orientation.

+1 My age and altitudes might vary but it fully match to my point of view.
just personal choice to simplify life in already difficult situation. although I might provide small differences in EP's depending on type of jump (e.g. fs, camera, WS) but they are minor. I just wonder how many jumpers forget to disconnect the rsl in the situations which they suppose to do so (at least in their EP's).
As a side note, during my very fast back spin after cutting away I waited just enough to get belly down possition and I released the reserve knowing that I might end up with twists on the reserve, which happened. but in accordance with the witness jumper he saw me going from my back to belly in a split of a second. I waited though for a short while to be "more" stable before I pulled the reserve handle.

j.

Back to Poland... back home.

[DocPop 1]

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Dang -- what kind of people do you jump with? I don't think I've seen that many, and since I do RW mostly, we have people climbing all over the airplane when they float!

At a guess, I would say that I jump with much lower experience people than you do. I am not sure about the third one being on climb-out as it may have been in freefall.

I agree that it is not a good record.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[Gene03 0]

Nothing more useless in this sport than the altitude above you.

“The only fool bigger than the person who knows it all is the person who argues with him.

Stanislaw Jerzy Lec quotes (Polish writer, poet and satirist 1906-1966)

[sundevil777 94]

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>Metal D-handles are easier to dislodge on climb-out leaving you with a possible
>reserve over the tail situation.

Has this ever happened?

About 20 years or so ago, at Snohomish, WA, it took the life of a jumper and damaged their twin bonanza. I recall another incident from these forums where the swaged ball managed to get snagged by a hole in the door frame, but I don't know if it went over the tail. I would expect there to be other incidents.

It would be nice of the cable end of reserve handles was tucked away somewhere it couldn't get snagged. The pillow handles do have this advantage.

I am so convinced of the benefit of the handle vs pad, that I also have a handle for my cutaway (it is a soft loop style). I've used it once and it was great, very easy and fast to use. Bill Booth can show testing where people had nearly the same grip strength on pillow handles, but I suspect that was not an extreme hurry-up scenario. Some pillow handles have pockets to make them more like a handle, and that is an improvement, but there is great advantage I think to being able to utilize my opposable thumb to its full extent.

My setup is as shown with loop cutaway and low profile D-handle (much better than the triangular type handles I think).

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[airtwardo 6]

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Quote

Use a big honkin' ass, east to see, hard to tuck under...METAL reserve ripcord handle.

That's not a 100% safe answer either though. Metal D-handles are easier to dislodge on climb-out leaving you with a possible reserve over the tail situation.

There is always a compromise somewhere where gear is concerned.

I would offer that dislodging the ripcord handle is more operator error than a weakness of design...and I kinda LIKE the idea of a reserve handle the comes out 'easier' when I want it to.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DocPop 1]

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Quote

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Use a big honkin' ass, east to see, hard to tuck under...METAL reserve ripcord handle.

That's not a 100% safe answer either though. Metal D-handles are easier to dislodge on climb-out leaving you with a possible reserve over the tail situation.

There is always a compromise somewhere where gear is concerned.

I would offer that dislodging the ripcord handle is more operator error than a weakness of design...and I kinda LIKE the idea of a reserve handle the comes out 'easier' when I want it to.

Agreed. But it should stay put otherwise.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[matthewcline 0]

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Use a big honkin' ass, east to see, hard to tuck under...METAL reserve ripcord handle.

That's not a 100% safe answer either though. Metal D-handles are easier to dislodge on climb-out leaving you with a possible reserve over the tail situation.

There is always a compromise somewhere where gear is concerned.

I would offer that dislodging the ripcord handle is more operator error than a weakness of design...and I kinda LIKE the idea of a reserve handle the comes out 'easier' when I want it to.

Agreed. But it should stay put otherwise.

Correct, which is why one should check handles before, during and after movement in the A/C. And look out for your buddy! But point at, DO NOT TOUCH! Floating handles.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Skyper 0]

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>Metal D-handles are easier to dislodge on climb-out leaving you with a possible
>reserve over the tail situation.

Has this ever happened?

Bill, this has happend. With a fatal result as well. While preparing for the AFF jump on the door, the student pulled by accident the instructor's D-handle... I think I read about that incident on this site.