atsaubrey 0 #26 August 22, 2004 My rigger tells me they are a pain in the ass to pack but he has no issues doing one though. He feels the are a solid rig and the quality is inline with everyones, if not better. It is totally pissing me off that most other people i have talked to at the local DZ have nothing but negative to say about thier products. The comments range from this and that but what does interest me is this comment. If they were worth a shit, lots of of people would be jumping Racers, and "have you ever seen anyone jump a Firebolt main?"...WTF, just because they aren't popular doesn't mean it isn't a quality product...right!? Ok, long story short..New rig, Firebolt 350 main, TD400 reserve all for less than....well not much over $5k. Keep in mind, the main and reserve are tandem canopies "retrofitted" into sport canopies. Also keep in mind i'm way outta the norm and cant buy shit off the shelf. The Firebolt 350 sells for $2900 by itself....i feel it is a killer deal but I also gotta ask if their coments hold water at all. Has anyone on here jumped the Firebolt who can give me honest feedback? i have read the reviews and it seems to do very well, but the people I have been talking to say they have known people who have that say it absolutley sux ass. I just want honest feedback and help me make up my mind."GOT LEAD?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #27 August 22, 2004 Why not take the simple solution and let me send you a demo and then you can decide what is right for you? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #28 August 22, 2004 First of all, I agree that negative comments are a pissoff! "they suck", "no one likes them" and "they're crappy" is not an arguement. I have heard barely any valid arguements against the Racer. Quotepeople I have been talking to say they have known people who have that say it absolutley sux ass. Right , yeah this friend of theirs who knows all about them confirms what they can't back up with facts. I love that friend.lol I know that guy, he was the one who bought the chuahua in Mexico and it was really a giant rat! You must know him, his buddy ate pop rocks and drank a Pepsi and his stomache exploded! oooh the urban myths that start with "I knew this guy who has a buddy who...[insert myth here]..." Secondly, I jump the Racer Tandem with a Firebolt 396 in it and it flys awsome. It has great toggle pressure and is very responsive for such a huge canopy. The openings are soft and on heading and the landings are excellent. Pack volume is also nice becuase it is a hybrid canopy. My next canopy will be a Firebolt 146 or 128 I think you'll find it a great canopy to learn on. BTW if you get some rude ass asking "Why would you buy a shitty Racer?!?" Just reply "So I can figure out who the a**holes are."I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #29 August 22, 2004 Honestly.. I'm not sure the Firebolt is going to be an ideal canopy at your experience. It flies a lot like a Stiletto, if you would not be looking at a elliptical canopy then I don't think you should look at the Firebolt. Having a 350 canopy loaded at 1.0 or higher as a Tandem is one thing since the TM has 500+ jumps, but loaded near that as a solo is very different. They are not retrofitting anything on the reserve. No modifications can be made unless they want to re-TSO it. Thats why PD can't offer logo's on thier reserves. I have issues with scalular designed canopies. Canopies where they work out the configuration in one size then just say make everything X% larger. The canopies fliy differently at different scales. Look at PD and you'll see that they adjust each canopy in each size so that they all fly as close as possible to each other no matter the size. Some times thats trim changes, other times its more in depth changes. Paying $2900 for a canopy just means you are paying full price Most dealers should be able to knock the price down a bit. If I'm adding things up you'll be getting a container (have you made sure that the harness is rated to 350 lbs? I'm not sure what limits JumpShack has on thier rigs now), reserve (tandem reserves should all work) and a Main for just over 5k? Its not a bad deal since you are going to be extremely hard pressed to find manufactors with rigs rated 350+ lbs on their harnesses. Don't forget to figure in your cost to convert your Cypres also. I think for the container you are going to be limited to Jumpshack, Strong and RWS. All 3 make good gear.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #30 August 22, 2004 QuoteHonestly.. I'm not sure the Firebolt is going to be an ideal canopy at your experience. It flies a lot like a Stiletto, if you would not be looking at a elliptical canopy then I don't think you should look at the Firebolt. Having loaded a Firebolt 396 at 500+lbs(1.26) I can tell you that it has different flight characteristics than say a 146 at the same loading. When I was a younger lad, I loaded a 170 stilletto at just over 1.0. The firebolt tandem doesn't fly like that at 1.0. Secondly, if you demo the Firebolt and find that it isn't for you, PD is making a canopy for the SarTecs in Canada. I believe it's based on the ?Spectre? It's a bigun'! Finally, your best bet for a Tandem canopy is to go through the manufacturer ie:Mike Forsythe. There aren't any dealer rates for Tandem gear. It's not the type of stuff that a dealer massmarkets like sport gear. Tandem equipment should be controlled by and in the domain of the manufacturer and it is. I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #31 August 22, 2004 QuoteHonestly.. I'm not sure the Firebolt is going to be an ideal canopy at your experience. It flies a lot like a Stiletto, if you would not be looking at a elliptical canopy then I don't think you should look at the Firebolt. Have you jumped the FireBolt 350? I ask this because I have no records of you demoing the 350 and it does not fly anything like a Stiletto especially at the wing loading we are talking about.QuoteThey are not retrofitting anything on the reserve. No modifications can be made unless they want to re-TSO it.This is not true; you should not represent what the company can or cannot do, as you are obviously not knowledgeable about the TSO in question.QuoteI have issues with scalular designed canopies. Canopies where they work out the configuration in one size then just say make everything X% larger. The canopies fliy differently at different scales.According to whom? How many different types of scalable canopies have you jumped and how many jumps each have you made to make that determination.QuoteIf I'm adding things up you'll be getting a container (have you made sure that the harness is rated to 350 lbs?It is not rated to 350lbs. It exceeds it. And this is a sport container not a converted tandem container. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #32 August 22, 2004 ... PD is making a canopy for the SarTecs in Canada. I believe it's based on the ?Spectre? It's a bigun'! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have coached Canadian SAR Techs and they call their main canopies PD "Silhouette 300," which means that they are slightly tapered 9-cells with ZP top skins and F-111 bottom skins. ... a good compromise for their mission. On a similar note, one of our larger junior jumpers got a great deal on a slightly used Silhouette 230. At his weight, (230 pounds) he drives it plenty fast enough. He finds it easy to pack and most of his landings are stand-ups close to the bowl. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #33 August 22, 2004 Go read my review of the Racer Tandem in the dz.com "gear" section. Basically, I found the Firebolt 396 to be easy to pack. It was a bit boring during openings and turns. Landings are a bit deceptive as the first half of the flare does not seem to modify trajectory very much, but it has awesome bottom-end lift! This makes for ridiculously easy stand-up landings, even with "spaced out" students. Hee! Hee! In short, exactly what I want in a tandem canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #34 August 22, 2004 QuoteHas anyone on here jumped the Firebolt who can give me honest feedback? I have jumped the Firebolt from the 100 up to the 400. The models you are looking at are tandem canopies and I have jumped the 298,350 and 400 with tandem passenger(obviously). The 298 flys like a sport canopy and is very swoopable. Howard A. swooped the pond with 4 feet dragging, popped back up to clear the sand berm and landed at this last WFFC. The 350 and 400 are also very good canopies, myself and SM1 have had very nice landings under the 350. These canopies do not fly or handle like a stilleto at this size. They open very softly and on heading, a lot softer than the PF 370 your jumping now. They do have very crisp and responsive toggle input, they are not sluggish in turns or in response to inputs like the PF 370 can be. The aspect ratio of the canopy gives it a nice flat glide for getting back from long spots and recovers nicely without having to add toggle inputs. The bottom end lift is very high and it is possible to pop yourself back up several feet into the air if you stab out suddenly. To me, the 400 felt a little slower but I think that is due in part to the light wingloading it was under and the high winds at the time. I think your best bet would be to give Mike F. a call at Jump Shack and have him send you a 350 to demo and see for yourself firsthand. I assure you that you won't want to go back to the PF370 afterwards Quote "have you ever seen anyone jump a Firebolt main?"... I jump my Firebolt 100 specifically for Birdman and for tandem video and a Racer Tandem with Firebolt 350 in it. So now you can tell them YES, you have BTW: who is this "friend of a friend" person? They sure seem to get around and spread a lot of misinformation"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mx757 4 #35 August 22, 2004 I demo jumped a firebolt 236 at all week WFFC.Jumpshack basically let me adopt it for the WFFC (thanks!) I liked the canopy. but it was a bit heavy on the toggle pressure for me. I'm left arm amputee and I have weak left side flare.. can't get full Flare in on left side..but I talked with Don & Howard and Mike F of jump shack and they all felt the Firebolt 218 would be ideal for me. So I bought one. I haven't got it yet.. But I really did like the firebolt.. it does open soft, smooth and on heading.. it flys well and the bottom end lift is great. I'll let you know more when I get my Firebolt 218 soon. The Firebolt is new to market and I don't think many people have had chance to jump one yet.. As for the Racer... I though about that.. seems I didn't see many people jumping racers any more..but I remember fit & comfert of my old Racer [bought used] when I first got into the sport. I since bought a Vector and Talon.. but when I can time for new one.. I decided to go back to a Racer, and I'm glad I did. It fits very well, It well made, and the customer service at Jump shack is great. and when I was at WFFC I noticed a lot of people jumping Racers! I met a guy from Kansas on load who just got his new Racer too.. he too LOVED it! mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #36 August 22, 2004 QuoteThis is not true; you should not represent what the company can or cannot do, as you are obviously not knowledgeable about the TSO in question. What modifications can be made? I asked 2 different reserve manufactors about slider changes or logos and both said it was a no can do due to TSO's. I happy let my Tandem rating expire, but I do have experience on the FC canopy that is based extremely close off the Firebolt. Howard and I sat and discussed the canopy at WFFC 2003 for a bit and we discussed just how close the canopies are to each other. Based on how close the two canopies are to each other in design, I've got 50+ jumps on the FC 360 canopy. I thought it flew very similar to a very lightly loaded Stiletto. Its more Stilettoish then Saberish. QuoteIt is not rated to 350lbs. It exceeds it. What is the harness rated to?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #37 August 22, 2004 QuoteIt was a bit boring during openings What does that mean?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
atsaubrey 0 #38 August 23, 2004 I would also like to know what "boring" he means...i guess I would like boring over "exciting" openings."GOT LEAD?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #39 August 23, 2004 QuoteI have coached Canadian SAR Techs and they call their main canopies PD "Silhouette 300," which means that they are slightly tapered 9-cells with ZP top skins and F-111 bottom skins. ... a good compromise for their mission. ah yes.. a Silhouette! That's it, Thanks. To mant PD canopies starting with SI would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #40 August 23, 2004 QuoteWhat is the harness rated to? I believe 254 lbs ... or was that rhetorical? I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #41 August 23, 2004 QuoteWhat is the harness rated to? 5000lbs in the high speed catagory. The limitation in this case is the reserve, which for the reserve that I would use is 400lbs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #42 August 23, 2004 Is the harness TSO'd to 5000 lbs in the Highspeed category? I know the type 13 Webbing is rated to I think 7000 lbs', but is the harness really rated to those speeds and weights? I would love to see video of 5000 lbs' being tossed out the door Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #43 August 26, 2004 QuoteIs the harness TSO'd to 5000 lbs in the Highspeed category? I know the type 13 Webbing is rated to I think 7000 lbs', but is the harness really rated to those speeds and weights? I would love to see video of 5000 lbs' being tossed out the door Mike, Do you want to explain to him what TSOC-23b Standard category is? Or should he read NAS-804? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #44 August 26, 2004 Yeah, I know that 23b means you can basically set any limits that you want to. I thought that only applied to the Low Speed cat. The whole max force chart thing and all that Racers and Vectors are rated under Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 19 #45 August 26, 2004 Hi ATS, Well, if you really want a racer, fine. Get one. But who is going to win the race? Racer has (2) pins. Hence 2 pin cypress more $$ Fewer riggers want to fool with them so you have a hassle getting them packed. Less popular so resale factor is lower. This is just the way it is. Single pin rigs, (Vectors, Mirage, Javelins, etc.) are less hassle to work on and work great in the air. Performance wise, a racer and a single pin one can work just as well as the other and kill you just as dead as the other.SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #46 August 26, 2004 If you want to go to that level of detail, JumpShack's replacement parts (cut away handle, reserve handle, free bag, reserve pilot chute etc etc etc are less costly. My rigger has no problem with my racer - if he did whine about, who cares? resale issue is valid for pre-2K3 rigs for sure - that is part of the reason I bought a used one. rm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #47 August 26, 2004 QuoteI would also like to know what "boring" he means...i guess I would like boring over "exciting" openings. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Boring" openings are predictably on-heading with moderate g-loading. "Exciting" openings involve painfully hard g-loading, slider hang-ups, tension knots, broken lines, holes big enough to drive buses through, etc. I am old and lazy and prefer "boring" openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wingnut 0 #48 September 4, 2004 QuoteRacer has (2) pins. Hence 2 pin cypress more $$ only 125 bucks as per paragear on a cypress2.... chump change in the overall price of a complete new system....... << ______________________________________ "i have no reader's digest version" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #49 September 8, 2004 >some of the reasons YOU wouldn't buy a racer? This is practically a religious war :-) :-) I bought my first Racer in 1976; my current one is 10 or 12 years old. Modern Vectors and many of the Vector spinoffs, Javelin, Mirage, etc, are fine rigs. They won the popularity war, but then so did Microsoft, so you can't use popularity as an indicator of superior design or quality. It does mean that a lot of riggers aren't as familiar with Racers and so find them harder to pack. That's the only down side I've found. But you only need one good rigger at a time and only 3 times a year. I think all the rest is just fluff and froth, like guys standing around arguing Ford vs Chevy. Non Racer jumpers (the unwashed masses who just don't get it) make comments about how Racers look funny, little realizing that through a Racer's eyes all those Vector spinoffs look like ungainly fireplugs with a harness attached. Fluff and froth, part of the ongoing show at the drop zone. Since you will be the one jumping it, you should do what seems rightest to you. I may still be jumping a Racer because I'm in a 30 year rut, but when people ask I tell them I just haven't seen anything better come along. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #50 September 8, 2004 Yeah, but Scratch I bet you still miss your front mount reserve too huh? Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
