Reserve TSO

[bmcd308 0]

On the "Max Suspended Weight" poll thread, Riggerbob posted the following:

>>Under TSO C23C and D, the manufaturer must prove that the rig will survive opening at 150 knots with 254 pounds.
However, under TSO C23D, they have the OPTION of certifying a rig to heavier weights or higher air speeds.<<

To which Derek replied:

>>w/ TSO C23-D they can go as low as 220 pounds, like the PD-106R <<


Does anyone know of a source for a table that shows the various reserves and the speeds and weights to which they have been succesfully drop tested?

Also, if a mfg brags that their reserve was successfully drop tested at 300 lbs. and 200 kts, can that mean that one test at that speed was successful, while another 10 at that weight and speed resulted in damaged canopies?

I find it interesting that the marketing materials for most reserves say that they have achieved TSO certification, but even Precision's r-Max marketing materials (and they make a big deal about strength) are not clear about the max weight and speed at which the canopy has been tested and at which it is rated.

Is there any way to access the data submitted to the FAA when the various canopies were approved about the weights and speeds at which they have been tested?

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

The weight and speeds reserves have been drop tested at and what they are TSO'd to are different. The testing information can be found in NAS 804 (TSO C23B), AS 8015A (TSO C-23C), and AS 8015B (TSO C-23D). They make for an interesting read.

There is no specified limit for weight or speed for TSO C-23B (try to find the max weight for a Vector).

For TSO C23 B, there is 3 catagories, A, B, and C.

For cat A, they are tested to 300 pounds at 150 kts and TSO'd to 198 pounds and 130 kts.

For cat B, they are tested to 300 pounds at 175 kts and TSO'd to 254 pounds and 150 kts.

For cat C, they are tested to 300 pounds at 230 kts and TSO'd to 254 pounds and 175 kts.

For TSO C-23D, the minimum TSO is 220 pounds at 150 kts. Test weight must be at least 264 pounds and 180 kts. In addition the drop test must be 1.2 times the maximum operatiing weight or speed that the gear is being TSO'd to. Also, for reserves with a maximum operating weight of 250 pounds or less, it must open in 3 seconds or less. For every pound over 250 pounds, the reserve is given an additional .01 seconds to open. It must also open in 300 feet or less with an additional foot allowed for every pound over 250 pounds TSO weight. They must also have not more than a 24 FPS descent rate and the total velocity can't exceed 36 FPS.

So the PD-106R was tested to 264 pounds at 210 kts.

There is a lot more details in the standards.

Derek

[bmcd308 0]

From the Sunrise Rigging website:

>It is one of few systems on the market today that has passed the TSO-C23d. This means that the Wings harness has been thoroughly tested and approved for heavier weights at higher speeds. <<


While the conclusion of this syllogism may be true, it does not appear that it follows from the premise.

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[councilman24 36]

And, after 10 years a new standard is available. The PIA Parachute Certification Standards Committee (of which I'm now co-chair) adopted PIA 8015E. Until and unless the FAA changes the TSO to reference this standard it is not official. The document is adopted by PIA but not yet published.

It took lots of time and compromises by all to create this document. It also was not unanimously approved and may or may not be adopted by the Europeans and the JTSO.

PIA Rigging Committee Chair
PIA PCSC Co-chair

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[bmcd308 0]

>>For cat C, they are tested to 300 pounds at 230 kts and TSO'd to 254 pounds and 175 kts.<<

So are there any TSO C23-B Cat. C sport reserves out there? That appears to be the most rigorous standard.

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[bmcd308 0]

Despite my understanding that it is bad form to reply to one's own posts, I thought I would tell everyone that I e-mailed Precision, PD, and Aerodyne through the addresses on their websites, asking them the max weight and speed at which the r-Max, PDR, and Smart, respectively, were TSO'ed in sizes relevant to me. I also asked the weight and speed at which the canopies were drop tested. I'll post those responses when I get them.

I have already received a response from PD that was basically just a notification that they got my e-mail and would get back to me, although it contained the somewhat puzzling statement that the max exit weight for a PDR-193 is 232 lbs. This is in conflict with the chart on the web site, which shows it as 254 lbs.

All the web sites give only the max weight - none mention the speed to which that weight applies.

According to the web sites, the max weights are:

PDR-193 254 lbs (232 lbs per e-mail from PD)
Smart 150 through Smart 220 - 264 lbs.
R-Max 188 226 lbs.
R-Max 208 245 lbs.

I found the relatively low "max suggested weights" on the R-Max surprising, since it is marketed as a stronger reserve than other designs. It may well be the case, however, that the lower weight comes with the advantage of a higher speed. We shall see...

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

It is one of few systems on the market today that has passed the TSO-C23d.

ANd this portion of the statement is hogwash. Wings doesn't make a "system" and there are several other manufacturers who produce their items under 23D.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[RIGGER 0]

Only TSO C23C have the 3 cat.: A,B,C

TSO C23B have 2 cat.: "Low Speed" proved to 3000 lb. shock load & "Standard" proved to 5000 lb. shock load.

APS reserves has been TSO'd under TSO C23C cat.C but there are not mfg. anymore.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

For TSO C23 B, there is 3 catagories, A, B, and C.

Oops, I meant TSO C23 C.

Derek

[tbrown 26]

although it contained the somewhat puzzling statement that the max exit weight for a PDR-193 is 232 lbs. This is in conflict with the chart on the web site, which shows it as 254 lbs.

[sundevil777 94]

Quote

It must also open in 300 feet or less

How is this confirmed?

If the drop test is done from an airplane, say at 300 ft above the ground, then the "path" of the drop is longer than 300 ft vertical distance.

Is there any limitation on this 300 ft requirement? Flying fast would certainly be the obvious way to get a positive result.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mjosparky 3]

The test is an alternative test to the time requirement. The altitude loss is measurement is measured along a vertical trajectory only. This is usually done with the use of ground cameras. Eight of the test ore done by live breakways with reserve pack opening within 2 seconds of breakaway. If drop tested the speed can range fro 60 KEAS to 110 KEAS.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

Read the attachment, it will answer your questions.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mr2mk1g 10]

The jav owners manual says that javs are now tso-ed under C23-d and that they're rated to 300lb at 198mph.

I found a page the other day saying that the new pd 99 was under tso C23-d as well @ 198mph but that appears to have dissapeard now.

Are all new PD reserves rated to 198mph?

[bmcd308 0]

I received a response from PD.

>>We dropped the PR-99 through PR-253 at more than 300 pounds, going at least 180 knots. The canopy is certified for use up to 254 pounds at up to 150knots. <<

So PDRs are rated to 254 lbs at 150 knots. This means the minimum drop test weight and speed were 254 lbs x 1.2 = 305 lbs and 150 kts x 1.2 = 180 knots. So PD placards their reserves at the max weight and speed allowable under TSO C23d given the drop tests they performed.

One down two to go.

Brent

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[diablopilot 2]

Quote

So PDRs are rated to 254 lbs at 150 knots. This means the minimum drop test weight and speed were 254 lbs x 1.2 = 305 lbs and 150 kts x 1.2 = 180 knots. So PD placards their reserves at the max weight and speed allowable under TSO C23d given the drop tests they performed.

I'm going to point out for the novice types that may be reading this, that when selecting a reserve size for yourself, reguardles of what the Maximun TSO rating the canopy has recieved, WINGLOADING STILL APPLIES!


After the Raven-M Bulletin you wouldn't believe the number of idiots I had come to me to buy PDR's and then tell me they wanted one 2 or 3 sizes smaller than the Raven they were replacing because "look, it says right here on the lable, rated to 254lbs."

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[bmcd308 0]

>>The jav owners manual says that javs are now tso-ed under C23-d and that they're rated to 300lb at 198mph. <<

My Wings manual says the h/c is rated to 254 lbs at 150 knots.

For the Jav, are you sure that is the rated weight and speed, or is that the weight and speed at which it was drop tested? The only reason I ask is that 300 lbs is about 254 lbs x 1.2 and 198mph is something close to 180 knots (really 175) x 1.2.

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[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

For the Jav, are you sure that is the rated weight and speed, or is that the weight and speed at which it was drop tested?

It is the actual TSO weight and was drop tested at higher weights.

Diablopilot- You are absolutely right and make a point worth repeating. TSO weight is not necessarily a safe weight to actually load the canopy with.

An older, worn reserve may not pass drop tests at the original drop test weight.

Derek

[bmcd308 0]

>>It is the actual TSO weight and was drop tested at higher weights. <<

Interesting. I would think that Javelin would make some hay out of this in their marketing, especially since the Sunrise web site implies that the Wings is rated to higher weights and speeds than other h/c designs.

Everyone should listen to Diablopilot and Derek - in this thread, I am seeking info on the proven structural strength of the designs, not on whether anyone in particular could survive landing it.


Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

TSO C23-D upgrade tests for the Javelin were done at Raeford out of our CASA 212/100. We do a LOT of TSO stuff for ParaFlite/Irwin also. It's fascinating work. We do most of the initial stuff on a slide ramp out of the side of our vinage Twin Bonanza, 57D. It's great fun diving that sucker down to the deck and releasing the load; very loud and very fast.

Chuck

[bmcd308 0]

Quote

I received a response from PD.

>>We dropped the PR-99 through PR-253 at more than 300 pounds, going at least 180 knots. The canopy is certified for use up to 254 pounds at up to 150knots. <<

So PDRs are rated to 254 lbs at 150 knots. This means the minimum drop test weight and speed were 254 lbs x 1.2 = 305 lbs and 150 kts x 1.2 = 180 knots. So PD placards their reserves at the max weight and speed allowable under TSO C23d given the drop tests they performed.

One down two to go.

Brent

I just found this on the JumpShack website regarding the AngelFire 196:

>>This 7 Cell F-111 Rectangular Planform Reserve is Certified under FAA TSO C23d. It has been tested structurally to 300 lbs at 207MPH. We recommend a Max wing loading of 1.2 to 1.<<

So the test was at 300 lbs divided by 1.2 means max TSO weight of 250 lbs. 207 MPH is about 183 knots divided by 1.2 is about 152 knots. So probably could be placarded for 250 lbs at 150 knots. A 1.2 WL implies 235 lbs. So does the label on this reserve say max operating weight 235 lbs. at 150 knots? Anyone have one around?

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www.jumpelvis.com

[bmcd308 0]

Quote

I received a response from PD.

>>We dropped the PR-99 through PR-253 at more than 300 pounds, going at least 180 knots. The canopy is certified for use up to 254 pounds at up to 150knots. <<

So PDRs are rated to 254 lbs at 150 knots. This means the minimum drop test weight and speed were 254 lbs x 1.2 = 305 lbs and 150 kts x 1.2 = 180 knots. So PD placards their reserves at the max weight and speed allowable under TSO C23d given the drop tests they performed.

One down two to go.

Brent

I received a response from Aerodyne. It said that all Smart reserves were tested at 150 knots, which would imply a max TSO'ed speed of 125 knots, which is 142 mph.

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www.jumpelvis.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I received a response from Aerodyne. It said that all Smart reserves were tested at 150 knots, which would imply a max TSO'ed speed of 125 knots, which is 142 mph.

Under Tso C23D, the minimum TSO airspeed is 150 kts. So if they said it was tested to 150 kts, they meant TSO'd to 150 and tested at 180.

There are 3 weights and speeds that can be listed.

1) tested to weight/speed

2) TSO'd weight/speed

3) Recommended max weight/speed

Derek

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

I received a response from Aerodyne. It said that all Smart reserves were tested at 150 knots, which would imply a max TSO'ed speed of 125 knots, which is 142 mph.

Under Tso C23D, the minimum TSO airspeed is 150 kts. So if they said it was tested to 150 kts, they meant TSO'd to 150 and tested at 180.

There are 3 weights and speeds that can be listed.

1) tested to weight/speed

2) TSO'd weight/speed

3) Recommended max weight/speed

Derek

Derek is correct on this. But there are only 2 that skydivers are interested in.

Max certified weight/speed (TSO'd) This the max the canopy is designed to take on opening.

Recommended max exit weight. This is the max that the jumpers ankles can take on landing.

You should never fly a reserve smaller than you I.Q. jmo
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

You should never fly a reserve smaller than you I.Q.

Whooo hooo, now they just need to come out with a 75 sq ft reserve!


Oh yeah, got your message about the rings... thanks.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.