BOC or Pull out?

[jkwon 0]

I'm thinking of converting my g3 to a pull out system and want to see what other people are flying.

I've had a lot of people trying to disuade me from the pull out, but I want to keep my PC in my container so I don't kill someone on a premature deployment.

--Joe

--joe
HISPA #69
The Best Band in the WORLD!!!
The new full length album "See What You Can Find"

[CanuckInUSA 0]

BOCs are very safe just as long as they are periodically maintained. Pull-outs seem too restrictive for what they do (ie: you can't jump a wingsuit with a pull-out) and any modern container is configured in such a manner that they provide the same sort of bridle protection that you get from a pull-out.

BOCs are the way to go (at least for most of us).

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ianmdrennan 2]

Both systems have their pro's and cons.

Quote of Bill Booths post in another thread (Link here)

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I have read this entire thread and must say that the pros and cons of this subject have been very well covered. However, perhaps I can add some insight. As the patent holder on both the pull out and throw out pilot chute systems, I have listened to customers jump stories about both for the past 25 years. Hand deploy pilot chutes had a lot of problems in the early days. But these problems have mostly disappeared as the result of design improvements like the Spandex pouch, the bottom of container (BOC) location (borrowed from the pull out), and covered bridle paths. However, the same old problems with the pullout, such as lost handles and no-pulls due to improper packing still remain. Plus, while the throw out allows you to actually throw the pilot chute into the clean air outside the burble, the pull out forces you to release the pilot chute inside the burble. To get hesitation free deployments, pull out jumpers have to momentarily alter their body position to break up the burble. On small, highly loaded ellipticals, this can cause line twists, which can become malfunctions. Perhaps this is why a good 95% of my customers, including me, jump throwouts.
I would say that the jumping public has already settled this debate. Both systems work when correctly maintained, packed, and deployed. However, people just seem to have fewer problems with today's manifestation of the throw out.

I have throw out, I like it but I don't think pull out is some evil monster either.

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but I want to keep my PC in my container so I don't kill someone on a premature deployment.

Eh? Pullouts can have premature deployements too - for different immediate reasons than a throw out, but both are avoidable with good gear maintenance and a good check prior to leaving the plane.

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[AndyMan 7]

What does a Pull Out have to do with prematures? They can easily happen on both systems.

Make your own choices, but make sure they're well informed. Based on what I've read so far, I'm not sure they are.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[councilman24 36]

viva la RIPCORD!

We all jump one!

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I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[GeeeeeeFly 0]

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(ie: you can't jump a wingsuit with a pull-out)

You do not know what you are talking about....

~G~

"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"

[DanG 1]

Your poll really should say "Throw-out or Pull-out". BOC means bottom of container, and both pull-out systems and throw-out systems can have the main deployment handle located there.

That being said, I use a throw-out because it is what I have always used. I think both systems work fine, but it is nice to know that just about every packer can pack a throw-out, while some may not be able to properly pack a pull-out.

- Dan G

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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You do not know what you are talking about....

Fine flame me if you want (I am no authority on pull-outs nor am I an authority on wingsuits). But my opinions stem from what is written in the FAQ section from the BirdMan website and by talking with knowledgable wingsuit people I know.

If you want to be a test pilot, then by all means go for it. I'd prefer to get the pilot chute away from the burble of the wingsuit (hence the reason why I take the extra precaution of jumping a BOC throw-out with a 9 foot bridle on my wingsuit rig).

BTW ... here's what's written on the BirdMan website concerning the use of pull-outs:


Q: Can I use a pull-out system?

A: Absolutely not. You have to have BOC throw out system. (Some flyers use pull-out with the handle on top like a throwaway with good results according to them but we have not tested that ourselves so we keep our recommendation as it is).


So once again, if you want to be a test pilot then go for it. Keep us posted as to when you plan on landing your wingsuit as well so that I can be there to video tape the carnage.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[FrogNog 1]

I'm a BOC, throw-out snob. It's simple, it doesn't make Bill Booth say "out-of-sequence deployment", it has worked for me, and when my spandex goes to hell I'll drive my rig back to the mfgr for a new pouch.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[jkwon 0]

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What does a Pull Out have to do with prematures? They can easily happen on both systems.

From what I've been told a premature is less likely on a pull out because the pilot is not exposed until the straight pin is pulled out and the PC Is pulled out by the jumper.

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Make your own choices, but make sure they're well informed. Based on what I've read so far, I'm not sure they are.

_Am

I'm not well informed I agree I'm a new skydiver with less than 60 jumps...but that's what I ask around.

Better to ask questions and understand more than I started with than go with what I may think is best.

--joe

--joe
HISPA #69
The Best Band in the WORLD!!!
The new full length album "See What You Can Find"

[GeeeeeeFly 0]

Before you get your panties all bound up...

Go post this with the birdsuit forum. There are many out there who fly pull out. Just b/c the manufacturer RECOMMENDS not to do it, does not mean that there aren't people doing it. I have a couple of friends out there that fly containers with pull outs in their birdman suits with no problems.

It's nice to see you use others point of reference instead of using knowledge you yourself have found to be true...

~G~

P.S. I'm Cadanian too...
Share the love from the great white north...

"The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over"

[AggieDave 6]

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It's nice to see you use others point of reference instead of using knowledge you yourself have found to be true...

So what you're saying is that we shouldn't use references in our skydiving, we should use trial and error?

Ok, I'm going to call up my rigger and tell him I want him to throw away his Poynter's manual and his packing manuals!

Honestly, how is the sport supposed to progress with that sort of attitude?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AndyMan 7]

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From what I've been told a premature is less likely on a pull out because the pilot is not exposed until the straight pin is pulled out and the PC Is pulled out by the jumper.

You have been given outdated advice.

The Spandex pouch used with new BOC systems are very good at containing the pilot chutes. New modern rigs have flaps that cover and protect all but an inch of bridle at the most.

So, contrary to the advice given to you, both systems contain the pilot chute nicely.

If you want to be really safety conscious, you'd buy a new Vector from Relative Workshop with their new "Spandura" pouch. Spandura is a new Dupond fabric that's half Spandex, and half Cordura. If there were any concerns of prematures with spandex, surely this solves it.

The downside to Pull out is that you have other new complications, like a floating pud to deal with. Not a major problem, and certainly one that you can deal with, but I'm just illustrating that they have a downside, too.

Honestly, there isn't a big safety reason going for either system. Both work pretty well, most of the time. Both have minor drawbacks, most likely, neither one will kill you.

I mostly spoke up because of the firmness of your post, and it seemed like you were unwilling to consider other opinions, and the justification you offered was invalid.

Buy what you will, they're both half decent. If you ever want to sell your rig, you might have trouble finding buyers if its a pull out, without having it converted.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[mjosparky 3]

The man who holds the patent on both systems uses a BOC/throw out. Is there any other information you need before making you decision?
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

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(ie: you can't jump a wingsuit with a pull-out)

Not true.

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any modern container is configured in such a manner that they provide the same sort of bridle protection that you get from a pull-out.

Also not true.

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So once again, if you want to be a test pilot then go for it.

Ask Jari how many jumps he made on a pull-out with a wingsuit.


Oh and explain why exactly you can't do it. I have well over 300 jumps that say you can.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Well I am obviously mistaken in saying that we shouldn't be jumping pull-outs with wingsuit. I was just going on the info which is on the BirdMan website. And when they tell us that they don't recommend that we use pull-outs with their suits, I listen to them.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[diablopilot 2]

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I was just going on the info which is on the BirdMan website. And when they tell us that they don't recommend that we use pull-outs with their suits, I listen to them.

I also do not recomend them. Especialy to the students I teach. If I were to encounter an experience jumper I felt was comfortable with his system I might give them my stamp of aproval.

They also say not to jump a high performance canopy. What do you think of that?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[hookitt 0]

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The man who holds the patent on both systems uses a BOC/throw out. Is there any other information you need before making you decision?
Sparky

Does that mean I should stop jumping my Pull-out? I converted to a pull-out in 2000 and wondered why I didn't try it sooner. It's a simple...yes ... simple piece of equipment.

I don't have anything against good throw out systems. Deployment systems have become much better. "Freefly" handles instead of plain ole hackey, better bridle protection. Better Main pin protection. The Hackey and a spandex pouch on many rigs is just a premature deployment waiting to happen.

The newer pud like handles that tuck in behind the side flap, convinced me that a BOC throw out was a good system. Before that, for get it.

Watch a person have a premature deployment while feet to earth a few times, it's not pretty.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[ianmdrennan 2]

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They also say not to jump a high performance canopy. What do you think of that?

That's why I don't have a birdman suit. I just love flying my canopy way too much

Blue skies
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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What do you think of that?

I've got a Spectre 150 in my new (used) wingsuit rig as I knew my Crossfire2 openings would be too squirelly for the new wingsuit jumper like myself.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[diablopilot 2]

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That's why I don't have a birdman suit. I just love flying my canopy way too much

Ahhh grasshopah..... you can do both, and live the good life......

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 3]

No, you should jump what you are comfortable with.
My post was just a statement of fact.
Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jkwon 0]

I didn't mean to come off sounding like I was firm in any way. I just purchased a new freefly handle from mirage and just wanted to see if there would be any reason to send it back because I wanted a pull out but it's a throwout just with better protection.

From what mirage told me the freefly handle they make is very safe and I just wanted to get a sense of what people thought about pullout systems.

It seems like the majority of people out there...even freeflyers...use a BOC/Throw out system. So if it's safe enough for the masses it's safe enough for me.

Thanks Ya'll

--joe
HISPA #69
The Best Band in the WORLD!!!
The new full length album "See What You Can Find"

[meatbomb 0]

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I'm thinking of converting my g3 to a pull out system and want to see what other people are flying

I jump pull-out because I like to know when my main pin is pulled...it aids the decision making process during a malfunction scenario. Also, I can close my rig with my main pin under my last flap, ensuring the only way it's coming out is if I pull it out...(Same reason I jump a pop-top) Guess I'm a bit of a control freak really. I like to know that the only way either of my paracutes deploys is by pulling the handle. (My AAD is my left hand).

---
Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii!
Piccies

[riddler 0]

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Watch a person have a premature deployment while feet to earth a few times, it's not pretty.

Been there, done that. It's not fun. But it was on poorly maintained rental gear. BOC spandex was loose, on a very old rig that the DZ was too lazy to fix. And it was my fault in the first place for freeflying rental gear.

Whichever system you get, maintain thy gear. Both systems have advantages and disadvantages, proponents and naysayers, but both systems work fine if used properly and maintained properly.

On this:

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It's nice to see you use others point of reference instead of using knowledge you yourself have found to be true...

If it's the manufacturer's point of reference, then yes I do. What may work fine for you a few times may not work 100 times - they have the experience extensively testing the systems to know what works and what doesn't.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD