Got "talked to" this weekend

[Throttlebender 0]

That has got to be the fastest back-peddling I've ever encountered. I'm actually a bit impressed

Life expands or contracts in proportion to one's courage. ~Anais Nin

[david3 0]

Quote

That has got to be the fastest back-peddling I've ever encountered. I'm actually a bit impressed

I don't know about the fast part but back-pedaling, yes.

[NovaTTT 2]

Quote

Some of us can take what's coming like a man, some need to whine and cry...and retaliate by fighting like any good middle-schooler would.

Andy, you've dug yourself into a hole, here. It's best to put that shovel down.

And you're playing both sides of the fence:

1 - You say, "Don't use fisticuffs to settle disagreements!" complete with eye-rolling sanctimony, but you also say,

2 - I'll fuck with your gear if you do something I feel is unsafe, rather than handle it through channels.

Going through channels is being a man. Handle-pulling is just childish, there's nothing manly about it. It's a pussy move, a childish act that tends to indicate a feeling of powerlessness to accomplish the correct action.

You'll do what you want, which may just turn out being a talk with the DZO or S&TA, but when somebody says they will kick your ass if you pull their handle, well, they may or they may not, but I'm willing to bet they will try.

And you'd deserve it - ass-kicking in Georgia is legally defensible in many circumstances, such as "use of fighting words" and always in self-defense against battery. And putting your hands on someone, or their gear if they're wearing it, constitutes battery.

I've heard "He just needed it" is a viable defense in Georgia, for crying out loud!

Put that shovel down! You have a lot more and better to offer than what this particular issue has become.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[nbblood 0]

Quote

How many times (if ever) have you pulled another jumpers reserve handle?

I call bullshit.

Before you answer I want names, dates and a credible witness.

I have only been jumping for 30 years but I remember hearing stories about this kind of thing from the 60's and 70's and as I recall it always ended up in a violent confrontation in the parking lot.

Is this really how Y'all still handle things down south?

I have pulled another jumper's reserve handle on the ground on purpose.....once. It was quite different than what we're talking about here though. This jumper was jumping an expired reserve pack job....for quite a while. He was aware of it. I told him beforehand that if he didn't get it repacked and I saw him jump it again I was going to pull it. He was putting the pilot and the DZ at risk for disciplinary action. You could make an argument for cheating the riggers out of what should be work for them too but primarily it puts others at risk of disciplinary action. Anyway, he got down from a load. I knew he hadn't had a reserve repack. I met him in the landing area. I discussed it with him. I pulled his handle. Now, he knew it was coming and I didn't approach him with a physically confrontational attitude. We talked and he took it like he should have. He let me pull the handle without resisting at all. If it had been confrontational I doubt I would have done it. I would've pursued other measures. But he knew he had it coming.

What's different about this situation is that I didn't disable his otherwise operational rig. It was already out of tolerance and needed to be repacked. I just ensured that the rig's next stop was in the rigger's loft. And no, I'm not a rigger so I didn't stand to benefit from the repack financially.

This, I think is an example of how pulling a handle may be used effectively. But I don't advocate pulling handles on an otherwise operational rig to make a point. I think the points on how this could be construed as vandalism are merited. I didn't cost this jumper a dime that he didn't already need to fork out anyway.

I don't feel the need to post name, date, and witnesses. I could but it's not necessary. That problem is resolved and I don't need to embarass anyone to prove a point. It happened. Oh yeah, the S&TA was standing there with me. The jumper took it well and we're still good friends. I'd jump with him tomorrow.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[popsjumper 2]

You didn't read post 71 did you.

As far as the backpedaling comments:
Actually, it's a case of those guys not understanding and making knee-jerk assumptions in the first place or me not making my self clear by spelling it out bit-by-bit, A-B-C, in short words in the first place.

So be it.

So...if you don't/won't get the message on having your handle pulled, then cool, get invited to go somewhere else. Good enough for everyone.

Sweet! You violent screwballs can stay wherever you are and duke it out amongst yourselves. Hell, you could sell tickets! Have fun!

Say good night Gracie.
"Good night, Gracie"

Putting up the shovel...

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[david3 0]

Quote

or me not making my self clear by spelling it out bit-by-bit, A-B-C, in short words in the first place.

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

Good night

[BrianM 1]

Quote

What he saying is that fighting is a valid response to having a reserve handle pulled.

Quote

We were arguing the validity of fighting as a valid response to pulling a reserve handle. He says it is.

Wow - and you accused me of straw man?

The disagreement is over the appropriateness of pulling the reserve handle in the first place!

I have been very clear that I ***** DO NOT ***** consider fighting (or any of the other potential responses that have been mentioned) to be appropriate. They are clearly inappropriate - and so is the initial act of pulling the reserve handle.

Either you are being intentionally obtuse, or your reading comprehension sucks.

Quote

Apparently you are thinking that I am going to pull handles. Hell no! I have no authority to do that! Neither does Brian, neither do you nor any other local yokel. That's a DZO and S&TA job

The DZO and S&TA also have no authority to do anything to somebody else's private property.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[Trae 1]

in reply to "I have pulled another jumper's reserve handle on the ground on purpose.....once. It was quite different than what we're talking about here though. This jumper was jumping an expired reserve pack job....for quite a while. He was aware of it. I told him beforehand that if he didn't get it repacked and I saw him jump it again I was going to pull it. He was putting the pilot and the DZ at risk for disciplinary action."
.............................................

Did you pull his reserve handle because you didn't have the power to ground him.?
Just wondering why you didn't just prevent him from jumping that rig (by saying "NO. ,you can't jump that".) and encourage him to get a repack or hire /borrow a different rig or p...o..!

Setting a precedent for tampering with other peoples gear even under the eye of the S&TA is questionable.
The powers that be on a DZ can shut the whole thing down any time they like for whatever reason.
It doesn't give them the right to touch/operate/ take or otherwise mess with individuals equipment.

Perhaps under some circumstances touching other peoples gear is acceptable and necessary but imho never as a disciplinary measure.
The DZ just need to be tight enough to squeeze those pimples out.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

in reply to "I have pulled another jumper's reserve handle on the ground on purpose.....once. It was quite different than what we're talking about here though. This jumper was jumping an expired reserve pack job....for quite a while. He was aware of it. I told him beforehand that if he didn't get it repacked and I saw him jump it again I was going to pull it. He was putting the pilot and the DZ at risk for disciplinary action."
.............................................

Did you pull his reserve handle because you didn't have the power to ground him.?
Just wondering why you didn't just prevent him from jumping that rig (by saying "NO. ,you can't jump that".) and encourage him to get a repack or hire /borrow a different rig or p...o..!

Setting a precedent for tampering with other peoples gear even under the eye of the S&TA is questionable.
The powers that be on a DZ can shut the whole thing down any time they like for whatever reason.
It doesn't give them the right to touch/operate/ take or otherwise mess with individuals equipment.

Perhaps under some circumstances touching other peoples gear is acceptable and necessary but imho never as a disciplinary measure.
The DZ just need to be tight enough to squeeze those pimples out.

Although not politically correct in today's touchy feely world, pulling someones reserve handle was the way to get a point across in no uncertain terms.

Years ago in a club atmosphere there wasn't always an S&TA to go crying to, If a person was doing something that needed to be addressed and wouldn't address it, their reserve got dumped.

Gave ya some time to think about it and cost you a few jumps to get back in the air.

I had mine dumped once for a low pull 'problem' that I was warned about a few times...I got the message.

Once had my blast handle pulled and the cable cut because I wouldn't give it up. . . I knew "I" could handle the special way ya had to pull it, it was the 'other' people not as good as me, who were dying. (sound familiar)


Now before ya get all high and mighty about touching other people personal property, I'll tell ya straight out...

If we're friends and are drinking, and you're too drunk to drive, I'm taking your keys until you sober up.

If we're friends and you're raging mad, threatening violence and have a gun in your possession, I'm taking it away until you cool down.

If you are doing something with dangerous consequences to yourself and or other people, I'll step in if I can to defuse the situation...wouldn't YOU?!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 1]

Quote

I have no problem with a DZO or S&TA pulling the handle of someone who has been repeatedly warned and or punished for repeatedly endangering others and as a last resort before completely banning the person from the DZ.

I do. If you have the power to ban or discipline, use it. If you don't, then figure something else out other than touching someone else's rig. But with or without the power, if you touch someone else's rig in that manner, you better be prepared to back it up with something more than fists and brawn, or even authority.

Frankly, anyone who fucks with someone else's gear like that puts himself at risk of getting a bullet through the head, or whatever the local equivalent might be.
Sorry for being so blunt, but sometimes handle-pullers or those who endorse it underestimate the effect of blind fury.

[airtwardo 7]

Frankly, anyone who fucks with someone else's gear like that puts himself at risk of getting a bullet through the head, or whatever the local equivalent might be.
Sorry for being so blunt, but sometimes handle-pullers or those who endorse it underestimate the effect of blind fury.

Quote

Yeah I see your point...murder in response to handle pulling, makes perfect sense.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 1]

Quote

Quote

Frankly, anyone who fucks with someone else's gear like that puts himself at risk of getting a bullet through the head, or whatever the local equivalent might be.
Sorry for being so blunt, but sometimes handle-pullers or those who endorse it underestimate the effect of blind fury.

Yeah I see your point...murder in response to handle pulling, makes perfect sense.

Very funny. I'm not talking about dealing with someone in a sensible state of mind.
Road rage doesn't just happen on the road, my friend.

[airtwardo 7]

Y'all ain't FROM Texas are ya?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[BobMoore 0]

Quote

Y'all ain't FROM Texas are ya?

Fixed it for you.

"For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people."

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

I saw similar drawings in the caves of Babylon dated some 2000 years B.C.

Must have been Twardo

Wait...WHAT?!

I suck at art so you fags can piss off. BTW, what did guys like Twardo use as parachutes 2000 years ago?

Twardo cut the sack off a male Pterodactyl and used it as a round.

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

I've heard people talk about doing that before. I wonder if it actually happens.
He'd have to be a 300lb gorilla because pulling my reserve handle would be a fast way to find himself looking up from the floor wondering what happened

There are few guys in the sport that if they did that, you would know you fucked up BAD.

I do not think for a second you would be in the position to do much about it except suck it up.

[VincePetaccio 0]

I can't believe what I'm reading here.

My gear is my property, and is a life-saving device. Regardless of my actions, you have no legal, moral, or ethical right to touch it, for any reason, without my consent.

Pops, I have to disagree with you- telling somebody ahead of time that you're going to perform some action does not make it OK. In fact, in some cases, it makes it LESS ok if it's pre-conceived.

Being a jerk doesn't make people listen to you. We emulate those that we respect, not those that we fear.

Come, my friends! 'Tis not too late to seek out a newer world!

[nigel99 325]

Quote

Although not politically correct in today's touchy feely world, pulling someones reserve handle was the way to get a point across in no uncertain terms.

Years ago in a club atmosphere there wasn't always an S&TA to go crying to, If a person was doing something that needed to be addressed and wouldn't address it, their reserve got dumped.

Gave ya some time to think about it and cost you a few jumps to get back in the air.

I had mine dumped once for a low pull 'problem' that I was warned about a few times...I got the message.

Once had my blast handle pulled and the cable cut because I wouldn't give it up. . . I knew "I" could handle the special way ya had to pull it, it was the 'other' people not as good as me, who were dying. (sound familiar)


Now before ya get all high and mighty about touching other people personal property, I'll tell ya straight out...

If we're friends and are drinking, and you're too drunk to drive, I'm taking your keys until you sober up.

If we're friends and you're raging mad, threatening violence and have a gun in your possession, I'm taking it away until you cool down.

If you are doing something with dangerous consequences to yourself and or other people, I'll step in if I can to defuse the situation...wouldn't YOU?!

I am never sure if it is a good or a bad thing that a modern dz is a business not a club. When I was a member of a skydiving club, it would have been difficult to be refused access as a paid up member.

As a business the dz should be putting the safety of its customers first. This means that duty of care should restrict people, far more than in the club days.

I am beginning to suspect that it is going to take a successful prosecution from a national health and safety body, or a court case for skydiving operations to move completely from club to business.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[airtwardo 7]

Quote

I can't believe what I'm reading here.

My gear is my property, and is a life-saving device. Regardless of my actions, you have no legal, moral, or ethical right to touch it, for any reason, without my consent.

Pops, I have to disagree with you- telling somebody ahead of time that you're going to perform some action does not make it OK. In fact, in some cases, it makes it LESS ok if it's preconceived.

Being a jerk doesn't make people listen to you. We emulate those that we respect, not those that we fear.

Being a jerk and not emulating or respecting is why you might get your reserved pulled...the only fear is, perhaps even THAT message won't get through.

And not using YOUR PROPERTY or your BRAIN in a safe and accepted manner, may be putting MY LIFE in danger, when it's between you getting scolded or someone getting hurt or killed, you're gonna lose that battle every time...that should have been explained to you back when you were still poopin' mustard into plastic pants ~ it's a tough world, wear a helmet.

It's happened before and will happen again, it's not something the average or even below average jumper ever needs to be concerned with...so stop sniveling & get over it.

It's the time honored way to get the attention of some fuckwad who constantly ignores the normal and accepted channels of censure...if you're not a fuckwad don't worry about it, if you are, then be forewarned... and be happy it's not B.A.S.E., those guys have been known to actually tar & feather THEIR assholes!

I've seen reserves pulled several times and to be clear, nobody runs up to said fuckwad and dumps the canopy while they're wearing the rig.

There are usually 4 or 5 people in attendance, the ripcord is handed to offender while the rig is on the ground. It's firmly explain what is happening and why...as mentioned above, if you should find yourself in that situation there is a damn good reason for it.

Generally the recourse is to modify your behavior, or leave that DZ forever...having your reserve pulled is a profound statement and an inconvenience, not some ghastly irreparable threat to your life.

Think of it as a family intervention, if you never need it ya won't get it.

It's not common because the reason for it isn't very common, drastic situations sometimes call for drastic measures...never know, someone you jump with getting spanked like that from their peers, just may save YOUR life someday.


And again~ your car keys are YOUR PROPERTY too...if you are too drunk to drive, tough shit I'm taking them from you. . . call the cops, or your mommy or whoever you wanna complain to.

Who knows, that horribly unfair infringement on your rights might just save some lives as well.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 7]

I am never sure if it is a good or a bad thing that a modern dz is a business not a club. When I was a member of a skydiving club, it would have been difficult to be refused access as a paid up member.

~The club I started out at had some by-laws that were well above and beyond any USPA recommendations. If you were a member and wanted to jump there you would abide by them or... give up your membership and jump elsewhere.

As a business the dz should be putting the safety of its customers first. This means that duty of care should restrict people, far more than in the club days.

~A club doesn't have the same motivation as a bu$ine$$ to cater to everyone.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Jonathan-rasch 0]

i dont wana get involved in the argument...but just out of curiosity...how much does it cost to repack a reserve, and how long does it take ?

[airtwardo 7]

About $75.00 U.S. and an hour or two...about the same time & money it takes to make 3 jumps.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Jonathan-rasch 0]

i changed my decission about not getting involved XD

i can see where both sides of the argument are comming from.but i think the best way to solve the problem would be to temprarily ban the jumper from all dropzones (like block his license or somthing) , is this posible ? like that he would be punished without anybody risking a fight or the dropzone risking its equipment getting damaged. i dont know much about vandalism laws and stuff since i am only 16, but couldnt the jumper whos reserve got pulled sue the person who pulled the reserve? so what i am saying is: can u bann somebody from all dropzones worldwide ( or at least in one country)?

[BrianM 1]

Quote

i can see where both sides of the argument are comming from.but i think the best way to solve the problem would be to temprarily ban the jumper from all dropzones (like block his license or somthing) , is this posible ?

There may be some countries where this is possible, but in general - no, there is currently no way to do this.

Quote

i dont know much about vandalism laws and stuff since i am only 16, but couldnt the jumper whos reserve got pulled sue the person who pulled the reserve?

You mention both "vandalism" and "suing", which implies two different things (criminal law vs civil law). Either or both may apply, depending on the laws in your jurisdiction. Here's what the criminal code in my jurisdiction (Canada) says:

Quote

430. (1) Every one commits mischief who wilfully
(a) destroys or damages property;
(b) renders property dangerous, useless, inoperative or ineffective;
(c) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property; or
(d) obstructs, interrupts or interferes with any person in the lawful use, enjoyment or operation of property.

... so at least here, pulling someone's reserve would be a criminal act. One could also sue for damages here.

Whether it is actually worth pursuing either option is a different question - in my opinion, probably not.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[airtwardo 7]

It's not actually a problem that needs solving and it's not even the topic of the thread...that's how far away we've drifted it.

I was just describing to an extent, what happens and why...it's a very rare occurrence and not something people should be losing sleep over.

If you go out of your way to mess up other peoples fun don't be surprised to find your bowling ball in the toilet bowl, it's not the end of the world.

There is no magic button to push automatically banning someone from dropzones worldwide nor should there be one...I for one find it entertaining to see people so up in arms regarding something so obscure, that may happen to someone else... yet have no compunction about putting their life is someones hands whom they may not even know, every time they jump.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~