From Douggs: Tracking Suits and Hard Core Tracking

[TomAiello 25]

I just got this from Douggs, who asked me to post it for him. Those who know him will recognize that I've done a bit of editing on grammar and such (at his request).

For those who don't know him, Douggs is a full time BASE instructor in Norway, very experienced skydiver, and has made more than 1000 BASE jumps. In my opinion, he is the best technical BASE jumper on earth at present.

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Coombesy and I were in the USA this week when the accident happened so I don't know the full details but I would like to talk a little bit about our experiences with and concerns about hard core tracking.


There are many new designs of tracking suits on the market, and jumpers continue to refine their tracking skills. This has created new problems and dangers, some of which I have seen and some of which I have experienced.

The tracking suits inflate and create surface area and speed and lift if used correctly, but you still need to be able to track to get them to work as they are supposed to. If you do not fly your body strongly, the tracking suit will take over your jump and the suit will fly you, which can result in some very bad, scary, and potentially fatal experiences. Tracking suits can cause unintentional turns and out of control tumbles. They can also create extra challenges at pull time. I have seen people tumble with them and have experienced my own trouble with the other stuff when I first jumped my suit.

The other thing is that now that we are refining our tracking so much, we are not looking where we are going, but rather where we have been. This can give your track 40% more performance, which is great, but the down side is that it can suck you down really low without you knowing it. You really need to study the terain you are jumping to make it safe. Myself and Coombesy have both been sucked too low in this manner. We got away with it, but it wont be like that all the time, so we have started pitching a little higher to allow for the extra variables. We can only have fun while we are alive so what is 1 second less freefall? We can just do another jump.

My suggestion to people out there who have tracking suits is to jump them out of a plane a few times first, as you should do with all new things. I know that is not always the case, and I am one of those offenders sometimes. So if you go straight to the base jumps with them, start out conservative and work your way up to going hard. Take your time and ask questions of experienced jumpers in the area. Everyone is more than willing to share their experiences and opinions.

This sport is getting really safe but with every new aspect of the sport there are new problems arising, that are often resulting in a death before we acknowledge them. Lets all keep safe in the tracking department and don't get sucked down low.

These are just my opinions for what I have seen and done so please don't take them as gospel.

shine on
douggs

He's rarely on-line, so I doubt he'll be able to answer questions about this here, but the next time you're in Lysefjord I'm sure he'll be happy to share his thoughts with you.

Lots of stuff to consider and discuss there.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[MickeN 0]

Good points. Tracking is fun and there are lots of new toys out there to help you go faster and further. But you need to know your stuff. What should help you make a safer jump could very easily make it a lot more dangerous if you don't know how to use it.

And in the quest for "the perfect flight" or "the longest track"... don't forget to have fun!

/Micke N
TEAM BAUTASTEN

[vandev 0]

I have read about tracking pants and jackets turning people around back to the wall and it seems that again the equipment has surpassed us. Like he said what is one secound.....to live another day by far out weighs a secound or two. I would really like to hear more about this last fatality as it is a shame that with 500 or so jumps that this had to happen. By what i have read he had to be right over the DZ. I would think that someone with this amount of experience would have nothing to prove to anybody at this point.....Would love to here from others about what that extra second means to them...I can't see the payoff...

Thank's for the article

Be safe, Chris

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[JFK 0]

Thanks Douggs for this message.

Not so long time ago people started to fly with wingsuits from cliffs.
Nowadays people fly with tracking suits as well as the early birds were flying their small wingsuits.
Tracking suits are considered less dangerous because you are free from your movements and used to this type of exit.
But as Douggs said, this freedom can turn into unstable body positions and become really dangerous.

Getting away from the object requires a good track.
Flying requires a good flight.
Tracking suits tend to mix them, trying to provide the best assets from each and to reduce the risk linked to the equipment.
Tracking becomes flying and proper technique should be aquired to start flying from objects.
The risk linked to the flight remains.

JUl.

JFK #1013
PM Me
No Adrenalin.... No Fun!
"Minds are like parachutes the

[wwarped 0]

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Would love to here from others about what that extra second means to them...I can't see the payoff...

so much about jumping can't be TOLD.
it can be EXPERIENCED.

the few posts the come close to expressing the moment are always treasured.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[base736 0]

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I would think that someone with this amount of experience would have nothing to prove to anybody at this point.....Would love to here from others about what that extra second means to them...I can't see the payoff...

If you had a choice between paragliding from, say, the cliffs in Norway and jumping from them, would you choose to jump? Ever? Even if you'd done the jump a hundred times before? If what you're after is the experience of jumping, then all the paragliding in the world won't scratch that itch.

While I've never taken it into the basement myself, my understanding is that the same holds true of those last few seconds of freefall. It's not about one or two seconds more of the same. It's about an entirely different set of visuals.

[BASE_1007 0]

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The other thing is that now that we are refining our tracking so much, we are not looking where we are going, but rather where we have been. This can give your track 40% more performance, which is great, but the down side is that it can suck you down really low without you knowing it. You really need to study the terain you are jumping to make it safe. Myself and Coombesy have both been sucked too low in this manner.

douggs gave the advice "look between your legs for more performance" to several people.
yes,this technique works great, but has the described down sides.
try this in a skydive,remember the body position and fly this same position without looking behind you.
looking too far in front of you is also bad.
the real important thing is how high above ground you are,and the ground is directly below you.

the best performing position is a very unstable position who has to be adjusted the whole flight.
a little turbulence in the air can throw you around if you are not prepared for it.

high performing tracks like this:
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1735780;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread
with a almost static body position are only possible in clean air.
(no cross wind and turbulence)
so if it's not the day for the good one,try again another day.
don't go for stupid goals like passing a road and find yourself too low.

i fly a classic tracking position with almost closed legs,do not look behind me and it performs similar like douggs technique.

practice in a save (skydiving) environment, find the limits and the best performance of the suit before you basejump it.

play save & have fun
moritz

[434 2]

This is the sport I have seen forgiven to the most reckless ones, and hard to the safe ones! The last accident came very suprising to me and my friends, this was the unexpected one!

Listening to the experienced ones, and do your homework from the planes, instead of be suprised at the most unexpected time! I my self have been tracking along the wall out of controll for a sec or twice, and I have seen others out of controll as well with huge almost roll overs in cross wind, side slips. and altitude loss! I do not know more about the last accident than the most of you, but I know the more we learn about other accidents the safer we will get!

I have tried the most tracking suits at the marked, home made and pro ones! I have only one thing to say, it is fun, but need your fully attention, and respect!

[TVPB 0]

Well said Douggs.

Couple of points that I would like to highlight.

1 - Douggs is giving everyone here some free, potentially life saving advice on his experiences. Take the advice before you get to form your on opinion in the afterlife.
2 - The preparation and logical skill development is critical. Don't watch Douggs take it low and then go do the same thing. Remember that he has done thousands of jumps and has more natural ability than almost everyone else on the planet. You may be blessed with more natural ability than him, but you have to give it a chance to be nurtured. The reality is, most people will fit somewhere below Douggs and above being a really crappy jumper. This is statistics. The majority of the population IS AVERAGE. that is what average means. To become above average you need special abilities OR lots of hard work. Some people can pick up a golf set and score only a few over par on their first attempt. Most people will need several years of practice to get there. You get my drift?????
3 - Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck


p.s. Douggs - now that Tom A has put the "best of the best" mocker on you, you'd better be extra careful!!!!

I agree with Tom. Very few people I have met in the sport of BASE have a combination of the following characteristics:
- champion skydiving abilities with 1000's of jumps experience & currency (National Champion, World Meet Competitor, World Record Holder, etc).
- smart enough to recognise that skydiving DOES help and is CRITICAL in your safe development as a BASE jumper.
- champion BASE jumper with worldwide experience and over 1000 jumps.
- actual as opposed to preceived talent and skill - and with Douggs, its natural, not man made!!!
- despite his achievements, he is still humble enough to ask people of more, same, AND LESS experience/ability for their opinion, and he listens. That is one of the key reasons why he has developed into the jumper that he is.
- respect for the crusty old elders in the sport. Even those that are negative about modern day technique and advancement.
- a wonderful / endearing personality. He is positive and constructive in his approach to life. As he says "SHINE ON".
- readily admits when he makes mistakes and he takes steps to improve them. We are human. We make mistakes. If you believe that you don't make mistakes then you have no chance in correcting them!!!!!

Negatives:
- that bloody hairdo!!!!

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[JeNnEjEnN 0]

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Negatives:
- that bloody hairdo!!!!

Oh hell NO!!!
It rocks!!! Jen

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"Scars remind you that the past is real..."

[toni 0]

Hello Tom,

You mentioned in the Thread about "Beginners in Europe" (I don't know how to URL this thing) that TrackSuits are good to go.

I can only disagree in this context (Beginners).

What Douggs says: "...the tracking suit will take over your jump and the suit will fly you..." means for me, unless your track skills are not bomb proof, don't do it.

I do know only the non-tracking suit side, since I never dared to put one of these funny looking suits (unless maybe for a Hip-Hop Party) and I have done over 100 (sub)terminal track jumps. Maybe I'm just an old fart, loving my old track-jeans (but stay interested to try this once I know how to track and am open for it).

One Tip I can give is (I did some lows cause of this mistake) for exits you jump often: Don't take the distance as a reference for pulling (like Moritz mentions), always know where you are vertically!

thanks for this good reading
t.

"On ne vie pas de saut pres..."

[Bennii 0]

I went also unstable on opening in Kjerag in PF and was lucky to come so good out of it. The biggest advantage track suit has over ws is no wing and because of that you can get your track suit neutral by going in box and bend your knees, don't fight it to long in tracking position if you get out of balance.
Practice this in skydiving.

take care

Benni

[Lee846 0]

Thanks for posting this, Tom... and great thanks to Douggs for all the tips and advice.

May I add my experience?) There are some cliffs in the world there you HAVE to track out. I mean the cliffs with the big ledges or less overhanging... Tacking stuff will help you only if you know how to fly it.) If you're going headdown or unstable because of the tracking suit it's always worse than the regular but stable track without any flying stuff.
And if you gonna jump some scary stuff hoping that it'll be your tracking pants that will safe your life.... you're probably f***d. These cliff are jumpable with you best regular tracking (and tracking pants will just give you an extra performance for fun) or it's the other kind of cliffs -- advanced stuff for experienced flyers who know how to fly it long and safe and you have no business there unless and until you'll get more experienced (and it's still youself who's saving your life, even with a help of some toys, you're quite familiar with).
I was recently given a very good lesson in France.

Between two evils always pick theone never tried

[TomAiello 25]

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You mentioned in the Thread about "Beginners in Europe" (I don't know how to URL this thing) that TrackSuits are good to go.

I will cheerfully retract that statement, and defer to Douggs experience. He has far more terminal experience than I, as well as far more experience teaching beginners doing terminal jumps.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[unclecharlie95 3]

Wise words from our man Douggs.

The User Manual for the PF Pants & Jacket can be downloaded from the articles section of the PF website, here:

http://www.phoenix-fly.com/articles%20stvari/PantJacket_usermanual_1.pdf

In the User Manual we advise that BASE trackers should read sections of the wingsuit BASE guidelines, which can be downloaded here:

In http://www.phoenix-fly.com/articles%20stvari/Starting%20Wingsuit%20BASE.pdf

The visual of a good track with smoke/ track pants is very similar to a wingsuit. Do not trust your eyes. You only realise how low you are when you release the PC and stop flying.

Play safe everyone
J

BASEstore.it

[JaapSuter 0]

I wonder if anybody can say anything useful about pilotchute packing for terminal, fumbling for the pilotchute, hard-pulls, slow throws, and pilotchute hesitations.

The safest advice is to make sure we don't end up low. However, in the occasion that we do find ourselves low, intentionally or not, what can we do to minimize the amount of time between thinking oh-crap and line stretch?

Even the slightest misreach, tugged-pull or pilotchute hesitation could mean the difference between barely hitting line-stretch and death. At terminal speed, every millisecond covers a lot of distance.

Does anybody have anything to say about this?

[vandev 0]

Would or could anyone comment on the 3 available tracking pants. Pressurized, Birdman, and PF. I would also like to here about a better and safer way to approch using these or working up to using them safely. I would tend to think that a pair of slighly baggy pants like cargo pants would aid in tracking. I also believe that even with several flights in a pair of tracking pants in a skydiving envirorment would not completly prepair yourself for a base flight with them. It seems there are so many other varibles and not the luxury of time like in a skydive to work out problems that you may incounter. I did say "completly" . Any skydiving done practicing with these pants and suit will no doubt help in transitioning to a base jump. I also heve seen these used in non terminal jumps like Swiss. Are these harder to use in a subterminal enviorment and can they make a subterminal jump more dangerous..

Would like to here your opinions...

Thanks all, Chris

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[TomAiello 25]

I'd recommend doing a search in this forum for "Smoke Pants" also. That's a pretty cheap option, that outperforms the Birdman Pantz for a tenth the price. Be aware, though, that you ought to test your smoke pants out of a plane first, as I can think of two cases in which experienced jumpers (ironically enough, myself and Douggs) found themselves spinning out of control when their smoke pants failed on their maiden voyage (he lost the waist band and ended up with pants around his ankles, and I popped a leg, and ended up with one inflated leg spinning me in circles).

I've got no personal experience with the Pressurized version. I've heard that they perform in the same general range as the Phoenix Fly version. Either of these, in my opinion, will perform better than the Birdman version, which, from personal experience, is noticeably worse than an ultra-cheap pair of smoke pants.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[vandev 0]

Thanks Tom, i did read the smoke pants posts. Very good stuff. I dont think price is a option for me at this point. i think i am worth the extra couple hundred bucks and would pay a extra couple hundred to know that i have a better chance of not having a blow out at pull time. I would also think that a 70's baggy skydive suit would aid in tracking . I noticed in the movie Continuim, the Denver crew wore skydiving pants and suits and seemed to get good results . i would also assume they are very talented as well with out these by the footage. My other subterminal question was more about using a suit at say Swiss. If you where doing a say 8 or 9 second delay and at pull time you are closer to terminal wouldnt that suit also want to really start working as you gained the speed? I could think of nothing worse that at pull time that all of a sudden that suit give you a big surge and be off balance...

The only thing i read in the forums about the presurized suit is that it turned a guy back to the wall on his first 2 jumps. Being that he was already experienced enough at Big wall sites this gives me thoughts about training in them...

Thanks, Chris

In the end...the universe has a way of working itself out.... "Harold and Kumar go to White Castle"

[JeNnEjEnN 0]

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I'd recommend doing a search in this forum for "Smoke Pants" also. That's a pretty cheap option, that outperforms the Birdman Pantz for a tenth the price. Be aware, though, that you ought to test your smoke pants out of a plane first, as I can think of two cases in which experienced jumpers (ironically enough, myself and Douggs) found themselves spinning out of control when their smoke pants failed on their maiden voyage (he lost the waist band and ended up with pants around his ankles, and I popped a leg, and ended up with one inflated leg spinning me in circles).

Also another note to remember, is to wear long pants under the track pants when testing them 1st out of a plane... I had mine blow out at the seams & whip/beat my legs the whole way down. Not too fun

Jen

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"Scars remind you that the past is real..."

[JaapSuter 0]

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...whip/beat my legs the whole way. Not too fun.

Yeah, whatever.

[BASE_1007 0]

terminal speed in a phoenix-fly suit is much lower then without.
for a good flyer this is around 100km/h and is reached after about 4 seconds. after about 6 or 7 you can be in a full flight. the lower speed gives you some extra seconds. the forward movement can give you extra altitude.
correctly used it's a lot of fun and works very well in switzerland.

[JeNnEjEnN 0]

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...whip/beat my legs the whole way. Not too fun.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yeah, whatever.

no really.. it was like an ice/rain storm in my pants. ouch

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"Scars remind you that the past is real..."

[JaapSuter 0]

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rain storm in my pants

Not helping yourself here... .

It's getting a little too Bonfirey now. Sorry Tom and Jennejenn. Just remove my posts....

[lifewithoutanet 0]

Careful, Jen. This is Jaap's way of coming onto you. Trust me. I've seen him do this to Abbie.

-C.