Slider Swapping

[JaapSuter 0]

Does anybody see any problems with putting a Vertigo Rockdragon slider onto a Mojo to do some slider-up jumps at the Perrine?

If anybody with a Mojo compatible slider could post its dimensions here, that would be greatly appreciated.

I'm jumping my Rockdragon slider-down, but I'm bringing a Mojo too, so I might as well configure it differently to spice things up a little.

Thanks,

Jaap

[TomAiello 25]

Sliders are specifically matched to the canopy. If you are switching sliders between canopies (or between sizes), consider yourself a test jumper.

I think I've got a Mojo slider here. What size Rock Dragon? I'll try to measure the thing...

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

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Sliders are specifically matched to the canopy.

Yeah, I recalled something like that, hence my asking.

I jump a 266. The Mojo is a 260. If the slider isn't compatible, I'll just jump the Mojo slider off. I can always put the slider on my Rockdragon later in the weekend.

Thanks,

Jaap

[plowdirt 0]

O.K. what about switching if it's the same munufacturer bigger smaller, smaller bigger, I'v heard somthing along these lines before. I am thinking along the same lines slider is made for that canopy, why would you switch. Yes quicker openings, slower openings. Surly mix and match would bring a problem. how could that be considered.

[TomAiello 25]

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...what about switching if it's the same munufacturer bigger smaller, smaller bigger...

Same story. You are a test jumper.

Sliders have big effects on openings. Expect changing your slider to do things. Be sure to test jump in a safe environment.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[DexterBase 0]

I just got the new slider for my BlackJack. It is noticeably larger than the previous one. The slider was changed to address some potential heading problems on shorter sub-terminal slider up jumps.

So, that is one example where changing the dimensions of your slider could have an immediate effect on the way your canopy opens.

What seems like a small change can definitely show up in your deployments.

At the bridge near Tom A, a two second slider up delay will normally give you plenty of time to correct a 90 left and still fly to a dry landing in the larger landing area.

A three second delay with a 90 left will probably only allow you to land dry on the beach, you will probably not make the large landing area.

A three second delay with a 90 left and a snivel will pretty much guarantee a swim if you're jumping with a tailwind at exit.

This time of year, swapping the slider out with an unknown compatibility could result in a swim and a dangerous situation flirting with hypothermia.

Try to think out as many "what if's" as possible before deciding to try it out.

You probably won't go in, but you will definitely be increasing the risk level for an otherwise straight-forward jump.

[DexterBase 0]

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Does anybody see any problems with putting a Vertigo Rockdragon slider onto a Mojo to do some slider-up jumps at the Perrine?

So you don't have a slider for your Mojo?

[JaapSuter 0]

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This time of year, swapping the slider out with an unknown compatibility could result in a swim and a dangerous situation flirting with hypothermia.

Good point. Having experienced the water in November, I know how cold it can be.

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So you don't have a slider for your Mojo?

It's a borrowed Mojo and didn't come with the slider. I'm putting it in my velcro rig. The Rockdragon is going on my brand-new Warlock I'm picking up there.

I'm there mainly to jump my Rockdragon to get to know it, do avoidance drills and see if my brake-settings are ok. But if I can pack an extra rig every night, it'll allow me to do one more jump during the day. I don't get to visit the forgiving span that often, so I'd like to make good use of my time.

Thanks!

Jaap

[JaapSuter 0]

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It is noticeably larger than the previous one.

Out of curiousity, how much is "noticeably" larger?

Also, can anybody provide more detail about how slider-parameters like length, width, sail vs large- vs small-hole mesh affect opening? I know they have an effect on the duration of the opening/snivel, but as DexterBase pointed out it can also affect your heading performance. Maybe indirectly because of longer snivels, but also in other ways?

Are there any detailed explanations on why sliders work the way they work? Something that goes beyond "they keep the lines together for a while".

Knacke's and Poynter's manuals are on the way, but until then DZ.com and my rigger are my only sources of information. Mmmm, maybe post in gear-and-rigging instead.

[DexterBase 0]

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Out of curiousity, how much is "noticeably" larger?

I'm at work right now so I can't measure but it seems to be roughly a couple inches longer on both dimensions.

Maybe if Kmonster logs on she can measure them real quick. My rig is unpacked and the old slider is next to the computer in the big "bin-o-pilot chutes".

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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...what about switching if it's the same munufacturer bigger smaller, smaller bigger...

Same story. You are a test jumper.

Sliders have big effects on openings. Expect changing your slider to do things. Be sure to test jump in a safe environment.

I think my Dagger sliders are marked 222/244. Asking the maker would be a fine idea here.

[DexterBase 0]

Regarding the new vs. old BlackJack slider,

Old dimensions: 17 1/2" x 23"

New dimensions: 19 1/2" x 26"



edit: add picture

[JaapSuter 0]

From the Apex website:

• FOX 185 and 205 use the PN 1724 slider measuring 17 x 24 inches.
  
• FOX 225 and 245 use the PN 2024 slider measuring 20 x 24 inches.
  
• FOX 265 and 285 use the PN 2328 slider measuring 23 x 28 inches.
  

From the Consolidated Rigging website:

When installing a slider be sure it is the correct slider for your parachute. Consolidated Rigging manufactures different sized sliders for the 6 different sizes of Aces and Black Jacks. A slider from a different sized Ace or Black Jack, or from a different manufacturer, may not be compatible with your parachute.

[JaapSuter 0]

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Regarding the new vs. old BlackJack slider

Wow, that's a massive difference. Did the manufacturer do some sort of recall, or did you just happen to need a new slider and they recommended a new size?

Edited to add: Thanks for measuring and taking that picture DexterBase!

[Spy38W 0]

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Regarding the new vs. old BlackJack slider,

Old dimensions: 17 1/2" x 23"

New dimensions: 19 1/2" x 26"



edit: add picture

Another question, is the old slider large hole mesh, and the new one fine hole?

I was a bit surprised when I got my Ace and saw the small holed slider. I asked Mr. T about it at BD and gained some interesting info in that conversation.

--
Hook high, flare on time

[tfelber 0]

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At the bridge near Tom A, a two second slider up delay will normally give you plenty of time to correct a 90 left and still fly to a dry landing in the larger landing area.

That's interesting... I've never really seen any data as you presented or thought about that aspect of a jump in that way. (You'd think that is something I should have thought about before the jump)

With a about a 3-5mph wind (may have been greater, Tom would probably know) from my back, I jumped a vented Fox315 slider off hand held with a 2.2s delay (video review from the time I left the bridge until I threw out the PC) and felt I did not have enough altitude to do a 180 and land in the large landing area so I opted for the beach. Does this sound reasonable?

Tom, in reviewing your video with Dwain, how long were your and his delays?

[TomAiello 25]

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Tom, in reviewing your video with Dwain, how long were your and his delays?

When Mark K. times the low pull video he has (hitting the water just as the slider reached the links), the pull was at just over 4 seconds.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[manship 0]

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I just got the new slider for my BlackJack. It is noticeably larger than the previous one.

So, that is one example where changing the dimensions of your slider could have an immediate effect on the way your canopy opens.

What seems like a small change can definitely show up in your deployments.

IN looking at the picture of your 2 sliders, seems the larger one is small mesh, the smaller large mesh. That is the primary reason for the size difference [unless you have some manufacturers comments otherwise, then I will stand corrected!] In talking with Adam some time ago, he said the guideline he uses is 10% -- ie, if the sliders are within 10 percent in size, they should be interchangeable. This is not at all to refute what TA said, you go out of the stock box, you are a test jumper, but that might not be all bad if you enjoy fiddling around some at Perrine.
I no longer have the slider for a 260 Mojo, but if you compare the measurements from someone with the Rock dragon slider, and it is within 10 percent AND the length to width comparision is not too skewed, then you could reasonably give a try at your own risk. However, I think your other choice of just using the mojo slider off might make for more comfort at the exit.
I believe the stock procedure now is to supply a small mesh slider with CR products, though if you want the large mesh I think they will supply that still by request - I know i have some of each.

==========================================

I didn't invent skydiving, but I jumped with the guys who did.

[manship 0]

OK, all interest may be lost by now, but I asked CR the question so I thought I may as well post the answer:

=============questions================
1. What is the reason the slider changed size, and does it relate to the
small mesh?

2. Is the slider size related to the line change and correction of heading
issues?

3. Do I need to get different sliders now that I have the line change?

===========Answer from CR==============

The fine mesh slider has always been available and always been sized larger than the corresponding medium hole mesh. In comparison to the medium hole mesh, the fine mesh provides more consistent heading performance and softer openings at higher speeds. At low speed (3-4 sec) slider performance is similar but not as "edgy". People do use the fine mesh from objects like the Perrine without low opening troubles. The reasons for this are a result of both the material and dimensional differences.

We changed the default slider to fine mesh when we did the steering line change as they were two changes helping achieve the desired result: More consistent slider up heading performance and opening speed.
Should you get them anyway? It comes under the heading of -If it ain't broke....don't fix it. Only if you have issues with deployment heading consistency or hard slider up openings would I suggest you change the slider. Remember the steering line change address both of those issues.

==========================================

I didn't invent skydiving, but I jumped with the guys who did.

[leroydb 0]

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It comes under the heading of -If it ain't broke....don't fix it.

[Devils advocate speaking]

It is their canopy design. Who are we to say it was broke? We are all "test jumpers" anyway. They were just improving on their already awesome canopy IMO (not that it matters. Ignore this if your button was tickled)

[/Devils advocate speaking]

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[base754 0]

This is my config with over 100 jumps between 3 and terminal delays! I have a Fox 265 Vtec and i use the dagger 266 large mesh slider on all slider up jumps from sub/terminal delays! I tried everything under the sun to slow down my openings with the slider that comes with the Fox 265 and nothing worked, but when i switched to a smaller slider it made huge difference in openings and heading performance. I did about 50 Balloon jumps with this config before i started basejumping it, but for me it was the answer hands down...............

[460 0]

Jaap,
proceed very carefully experimenting with the slider. Slider experimentation can easily go wrong, even with advice from the BASE manufacturers. The interaction of the slider with the brake lines is the thing that drives the slider down. This interaction also leads to the tail inflation that is critical to the inflation sequence. I altered my slider during a period of experimentation, foolishly done only in a BASE environment. The result nearly cost me my life and 6 months of recovery. The slider alteration was only about 1 inch.

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[base754 0]

Can u go into more detail on your experience with swapping sliders? What kind of Canopy was u jumping? I jump a fox 265 and BR uses the same size sliders on both 265 and 285 and maybe even on a few others, but i would have to check again on that!

[base754 0]

Forgot! The standard slider that came with my Fox265 was 23x28, but i use a smaller slider like i said witch is 20x26! I understand what u are saying about slider swapping and totally agree that we must be very carefull when doing this, but after plenty of test and lots of jumps i find this change not only to be very safe but the best sized slider for my canopies...............