fudd 0 #1 January 5, 2004 :stupid idea warnning!: I just ponderd a little bit about why people sometimes have hard cutaways. It's because the cables are dirty, risers are part of a twist or the loop pulls to hard on the cutaway cable. Maybe even a combination of those three. When trying to solve problems with hard cutaways, it seems to me that it's always been about doing things with the cable. (riser inserts, cleaning, lubricating) What about a cypres cutter on each loop for a backup option in case of a hard or impossible cutaway. Just an idea. Maybe not plausible in its current form for sport systems. Maybe an idea to implement with student rigs when the cypres (or other aad) fires in the upper range Probably Bill Booth already has thought of this, and come to the conclution that it's a bad idea. Adding more complexity to a system is usually not a good idea. There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #2 January 5, 2004 So there I was, hangin on my front risers as hard as I can performing a sweet 360 degree high speed diving hook turn and the damn AAD cut the loops to my risers.... Edit: ah heck, I'll add to that post. Since most spinning malfunctions won't generate a high enough verticle descent rate, it wouldn't prove to be a viable option. Also If the device malfunctioned at a low altitude, the jumper would be killed. Also the cable running up to the riser would encounter a lot of flexing and other stresses causing a possible malfunction. 3 ring releases work so well that it's not worth it any way. Proper maintainance and configuration of the 3 ring system has proven to be adequate. Hard riser inserts, periodic cleaning and lubrication of the cable, flexing of the riser is all that needs to happen to ensure a properly functioning 3 ring release system.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudd 0 #3 January 5, 2004 Yup, one of the reasons most would feel uncomfortable with this idea. Having the aad cutting your riserloops during the final hook turn could be a minor inconveniance For students under a malfunctioning canopy, freezing up not cutting away and having the cypres firering the reserve...maybe another story. Maybe the loop can be improved in some way, giving lighter cutaways. Adding a cutter might not be the answer, but maybe there is room for a little improvement. That would probably be by something more simple, not more complex. A properly maintained three ring system should be safe enough though and ensure an easy cutaway. As Bill Booth has pointed out before, large three rings are safer than mini three rings. (or have better margin of error I think don't remember excatly the reasoning...gotto do a search) There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #4 January 5, 2004 They are larger thus magnify the leaver effect giving a lighter load. If you search you will find actual figures. The difference is actually pretty small but could make a difference in some marginal situations. The same can be said to a lesser degree of stainless hardware which technically increases pull force by a tiny ammount when compaired to the brushed stuff. The biggest issue to arrise in recent years is the possability that the excess cable can get trapped by heavily spun up risers... thus hard riser inserts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harksaw 0 #5 January 5, 2004 I had thought of this,and my concept was to have the device record G forces and when they are over a certain limit for longer than any person would be comfortable with, it would cut away. I don't think its feasible though.. too many different rig setups .. too complex and too much likelihood for a nasty incident. Why don't they make tapered risers so you can have the larger 3-rings that go up to the regular smaller riser width a few inches above the rings?__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kenneth21441 0 #6 January 5, 2004 Just another piece of equipment that could go wrong... I recall in 1991 we thought about putting a cutter on the extraction line of a airdrop load, when the L/M forgot to release the locks and the 130 went in... but the ideal was just another problem in itself..... Just my input... Ken..Kenneth Potter FAA Senior Parachute Rigger Tactical Delivery Instructor (Jeddah, KSA) FFL Gunsmith Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #7 January 5, 2004 It seems like an awefully complex solution to a problem, which is far more easily solved by people taking care of their gear. Clean your cables every month. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #8 January 5, 2004 It is good to have ideas and share them. This particular one strikes me as the wrong solution to the problem though. Hard cutaways can better be solved by proper maintenance, and having hard inserts. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #9 January 5, 2004 If everyone went back to type VIII risers the problems of hard cutaways would almost disappear. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 56 #10 January 5, 2004 QuoteIf everyone went back to type VIII risers the problems of hard cutaways would almost disappear. Sparky Why? Did you maybe mean large 3-rings, maybe? If not, how does the wider riser cause hard cutaways? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #11 January 5, 2004 QuoteWhy don't they make tapered risers so you can have the larger 3-rings that go up to the regular smaller riser width a few inches above the rings? You don't need em'. There is no reason you cant have large rings on a mini (type 17, it 1' webbing) riser. It just doesn't look as cool, so people don't usualy do it.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 56 #12 January 5, 2004 QuoteThere is no reason you cant have large rings on a mini (type 17, it 1' webbing) riser. It just doesn't look as cool, so people don't usualy do it. It is not an option on ANY order form. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #13 January 5, 2004 Doesn't mean it's not avaliable you might have to ask for it, and yes it's avaliable on a couple of order forms. To order it on a Mirage for example, you would check the box that says "Large" under "Three Rings", and the box that says "Mini" under risers. Velocity Sports Equipment (Infinity), Rigging Innovations (Talon3), and Sunpath (Javelin) all have these options on their orderformas as well. If you want another manufacturers product you may have to place a special request for it.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #14 January 6, 2004 No, I meant Type VIII risers. The wider material makes is almost impossible for the the cutaway cable to get trapped. Before the advent of Type 17 risers you never heard of trapped cables. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #15 January 6, 2004 QuoteBefore the advent of Type 17 risers you never heard of trapped cables. Yeah, but to be fair, before the advent of Ty XVII risers there wasn't much in the way of HP canopies. One of the big reasons why cables get trapped is because of how tightly the risers wrap themselves up (read: how fast and violent the canopy spins up). I'm sure there is some benefit to having more material (webbing bulk) that will keep some space in the riser twist to keep the cables a bit more free, but the key is how tight/fast todays canopies will spin up. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #16 January 6, 2004 Disregarding everyone's valid points about gear maintenance and large 3-rings... QuoteSo there I was, hangin on my front risers as hard as I can performing a sweet 360 degree high speed diving hook turn and the damn AAD cut the loops to my risers.... So, maybe not an fallrate/altitude sensitive AAD actually? Something that activates the cutters when the cutaway pad is pulled? No shit, there I was, spinning so hard I couldn't even budge the cutaway pad one inch. A lot of good them loopcutters did me. Oh, ok. So what about something that activates the cutters when the cutaway pad is peeled? yeah, we were trying to launch a 6-way snowflake out of the 206. The exit funneled, and I heard this loud bang when someone hit me. Couldn't figure out what it was until I tried to deploy my main... Ah. Right. Well, what about a separate button or something? Mmmmh... Maybe not. Just thinking aloud. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #17 January 6, 2004 Seems like belt and braces to me....which is a great idea until you need a shit in a hurry...... Might be better value for money to design a wee dust cap that could seal the cable housings, and fit riser inserts, if its really that big an issue.-------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #18 January 6, 2004 ... Might be better value for money to design a wee dust cap that could seal the cable housings ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> USPA banned "gravel bans" decades ago, but every few years someone tries to re-invent them. Gravel bans were banned for a reason. Far better to spend the energy on cleaning your cables every month. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #19 January 6, 2004 Oh, ok. So what about something that activates the cutters when the cutaway pad is peeled? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are hinting at the next generation of rigs, where we will dispense with all those silly steel cables and springs. When you pull a handle, it will only move an inch or two (purely for feedback) then a fiber optic cable will tell the central processing unit what you want to do, the CPU will mull it over for a millisecond, then cut both risers, open the reserve container and fire the air bag that activates your reserve pilotchute. The next generation of rigs will cost ten times as much as current rigs, repacks will be closer to $1000 and you will need a Masters Degree in IT integration before you can become a rigger. Hee! Hee! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fudd 0 #20 January 6, 2004 And the expression "blue screen of death" becomes a reality... There are only 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary, and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #21 January 6, 2004 QuoteAnd the expression "blue screen of death" becomes a reality... Your parachute system has become unstable. You can either wait for the reserve to become available, or perform your reserve drills by pressing CUTAW-ALTI-RES. --- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nacmacfeegle 0 #22 January 6, 2004 Thanks Rob I didn't know that or even that they had a name. By the way I agree with you "Far better to spend the energy on cleaning your cables". -------------------- He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #23 January 6, 2004 Your parachute system has developed an error. Please select. ___________________________________________________ END PROCESS _______________ WAIT AND SEE IF IT CLEARS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #24 January 7, 2004 QuoteYou are hinting at the next generation of rigs, where we will dispense with all those silly steel cables and springs. When you pull a handle, it will only move an inch or two (purely for feedback) then a fiber optic cable will tell the central processing unit what you want to do, the CPU will mull it over for a millisecond, Yeah. I actually thought about that. What's going to happen to the fiber optic when the risers separate from the rig? Far better to have a radio-link between the rig and the risers. It would be good for the riggers too; every time somebody cuts away, there will be a dozen rigs to re-pack when one rig tells all the risers to cutaway... At least if we let the certain company from Redmond design the OS for our rigs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #25 January 7, 2004 QuoteAt least if we let the certain company from Redmond design the OS for our rigs. And every morning as we unpack our gearbag and push the button four times we'll have a screen saying: 'New updates are available - do you want to install them now?' OTOH If they build airbags into the system, a mass exit where the radio controlled box of one of the participants starts to blow up all the freeflypantz and jumpsuits within range, due to a minor software bug - that could be worth the video... Just picture it: Inflatable skydivers stuck in the door!... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
