rynodigsmusic

More like enjoy the goodness of his sky. Unless you skydive for defiance rather than enjoyment that is? I have seen some plane stickers that say "Because your mother told you not to" however. "We didn't start the fire"

Believe me, I know, and I still disagree. As stated above by another poster, it takes great faith to have absolutely none. You disagree and that is okay. So, does your "no religious belief" definition mean you have faith in God or not? Im going to assume your answer is no. Im not really interested in semantics. respectively. Agreed. To add... our society seems to "force" alot of stuff on everyone, its still not a reason to not read the Gospel and at least attempt to understand it. Not saying you havent read it, but the simple truth is that many accept atheism because they see the hypocrisy that supposed Christians radiate... and, becasue science claims to have the truth the Gospel is ignored and even mocked... like the wonderful discovery program I saw the other day. I wanted to read for myself what the Gospel was all about. I did, and I saw. Now, none of these religious zealots can affect me... I have the truth now. Funny enough, most of them have not read the Gospel either, or at least they didint understand it. That is clear. Just one example of the forceful society is a recovering alcoholic has to deal with a barrage of advertisements, which are clearly protected by law, as they should be. It doesnt change the fact that much of what he struggles against is the "forceful" billboard and telvision shows (2 and half men for one, which BTW I like to watch). Doesnt change the fact that our society is not very good at honoring everyones wishes in regards to what we are and are not exposed to. YOu can bet, if it makes money though, it will be honored. Do you see where that argument can be a football? No matter how much you throw it, its still a football. (sorry, lame analogy, but you get the point) What spiritual salvation or damnation is recieved through someone who simply accepts the possiblity there is a God? The ones who find it hard to shake off are the ones who have been indoctrinated into believing there is no God. Why would an agnostic find his belief/non belief hard to shake? I do however understand the "price" for apostasy, spiritually anyway. The deceptive revelation that this life is all there is to life is clearly a revelation of death, not of life. Bodies die, still, life continues to flourish? Its at least curious to think about life rather than just the body. Do you believe in the possibility of God? Yes, or no? Dont you mean not brain defected? BTW who/what is the standard of the non brain defected anyway? You? Surely it is not someone who believes in God? Absolutely certain about that...right? Now whos putting the cart in front of the horse? A believer simply stops thinking? So what is the general consensus? Brain dead at 35 or 40? OR just thoughtless throughout the entire lifespan? "We didn't start the fire"

Wow, someone who didnt feel offended from a post of mine. Thats rare for me. Thanks for that. I do agree with this... "I think it takes a lot more faith to be an atheist rather than to believe in God". "We didn't start the fire"

Really, how so? "We didn't start the fire"

Thats a bit of a s t r e t c h Bill. We also see 180 degree changes in perception. Science may refuse to see that as testable evidence, but it doesnt mean it is not taking place. Science is VERY limited without faith (I dont mean faith in God necessarily), contrary to what people believe. The evidence in fossils prove that life exists with time, so what? Dont completely underestimate that life is a miracle based on fossils and scientific "evidence" to the "contrary". So close, yet so far away. Just a fancy scientific name for life. Sorry, I dont beieve that one. Your dealing with the heart of man, even evidence will and can be denied by those who refuse to believe in a creator. Take the miracles of Jesus. There are people who still did not believe they were miracles. "There must be a scientific explanation for the raising of the dead". It is funny to me you consider zeal a simple process though. One that stems from a revelation that some never get to experience... must not be that simple. It most certainly wasnt for me. How exactly is faith considered scientifically bankrupt? Perhaps because it is not understood? Must be false. That is, "I cannot understand faith, must be false" Yup, dont believe that is true either. What is your definition of a theory? Im not arguing with you, I just dont believe what your saying is true. I dont know if thats the same as the discovery channel? But I saw just the other day on TV a origin of the Universe show. It was teaching the creation of the earth, the scientific view that is, as pure truth. Sure, they didnt say with 100 percent certainty (otherwise it would be front page on Yahoo), but anyone, especially young children would not have even come close to seeing objectivity. It was, "this is without a doubt how the world and life began". His quote, an MIT scientist or something was "We came from the scum of the earth". I get pretty pissed when you guys say its okay to teach theory as truth in our science classes while at the same time confronting us on the issue of keeping God out, when most spiritually connected Christians could care less. Its the hypocrisy that makes me mad, not the protocol. You see it as evidence will lead us to the truth. You dont see it as truth leads us to evidence. If one is accepted as scientific truth, so also should the other one be. "We didn't start the fire"

sorry man, you missed the point of the comparison. "We didn't start the fire"

If i knew how to do the strike through thing, I would change your quote to say, "The history of man in general in particular in regards to money, power, and greed, is bloody in the extreme". Nevertheless, how is this a valid response to the questions I asked you? Do you feel it is right to blame something you dont believe exists to express the same truth I just expressed in the last post? So you blame "God" for the ways of the world, and you justify that blame with the flying spaghetti monster... got it. Just one last question. How is justifying blame an expression of learning from the past? In fact, how is blame an example of something we should keep in the evolution of mans mind? That is, what good is it? All it does is take the mind off the truth and it is responsible for much more pain and suffering than forgiveness and understanding. "We didn't start the fire"

Fair enough. However, most people dont know the full truth of the universe do they? So how can you define what they are, or even what they will be without the full truth being revealed? Change comes in an instant. Who is atheist today, may be something else tomorrow. At best I would say most atheist are anti Christian (I know I know, its BS, its just an observation) and therefore claim atheism as their belief. However, I have seen that if someone is speaking truth more fully, they are most likely agnostic than atheist. Atheism requires an extreme denouncing of even the possibility of God. I have not seen this in most skydivers. In fact, I have seen more often than not people willing to talk alot about God, in Christianity and in other faiths as well. Your post is far from the truth. "We didn't start the fire"

There are plenty of people in this world who do not understand skydiving. Alot of people have died and more will continue to die in this sport. Many have been seriously injured, and lives have been radically changed... Did all those people who paid/pay the "price" for skydiving have no purpose as well? Why are you so insistant on living in the past? Has this world given us ANY reason to believe it is learning from its past? ANY? So, while you use the past to "educate your dis-belief" and condemn any possible belief in God, why in the hell is the world not using it to establish a more peaceful earth and learn the lessons of a longer and more fulfilling life? Because most of you insist the world is and should be run by man . How futile to think man is a gift to this earth instead of simply being a part of it. Ill say it again. The earth is not for man, but for life. It is not for man, but for God. What is more true. That man created nature or that nature created man? And if nature created man, why does man believe he belongs to himself? Is he not at the mercy of nature? So you continue to accuse our faith of lacking in logic due to what you know about the past, not the present. What is more logical? To never learn from the past (as the world clearly has not) or to learn from the past and apply it to the present? The past tells us that man cannot rule himself. "We didn't start the fire"

I dont really think your listening too well. respectively. Life, not what life gives life to, by its very nature, cannot die. Your very definition and explaination of evolution have proven this. Not only that, life has been revealing more and more of its power throughout existance. To the point where the human mind is due to be occupied by its greatest revelation, God. That is, everyone will be like Jesus inevitably. Nothing will be impossible for this new creation. 3it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[a]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. This type of thinking is futile at best. It will not be the heart of the future. It is full of blame. Let me ask you something. Do you praise God for the good things in your life with the same measure you blame him for the bad? Why not? Not only that. Did you bring yourself to life, or did life bring you to life. Are you going to blame God for giving you life as well? Does your search for understanding and truth simply die at the dinosaurs and blame? Respectively. "We didn't start the fire"

I kill mosquitoes too... see, we do have something in common Babies just leave early is all, but even they still have an impact in life no matter how "brief". "We didn't start the fire"

I also wanted to add that this sounds alot like Islam to me. Islam is based on the first 5 books of the OT Holy Bible. On the Torah. Which means if it echoes the OT, how can it echo the New? that is not to say there are not spiritual truths found in the OT, but the OT ways are dying... Just as Christ died for us, so also we died to the old ways. (Romans7)But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. ..Yet another example of what Paul encountered when he attempted to explain grace to those who were dead set on tradition and religion. He had to confront it all. Washing of hands and feet, circumcision, sabbath, I could go on... "We didn't start the fire"

6They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over weak-willed women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7always learning but never able to acknowledge the truth. (2tim) 46Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.(Gospel) The truth is grace. Grace is the truth. They came together as one in Christ... 6From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[a]who is at the Father's side, has made him known. The question is what is grace? Most people accept "unmerrited favor from God" as the "definition", while this is true, a better definition is Gods love. So, love is the truth and the truth is love. Anything contrary to that is not of Jesus. I dont know why this is often missed, but your right, unfortunately there are people in our churches who just dont f-n get it. Jesus praised the pure in heart, not the sin free (as he is the only one who is sin free.. he cant separate himself from himself). Many outside the church and outside the "knowledge of the truth" are pure in heart... God knows those who are his... man can only guess... 47When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false. Was he saying Nathaneal was a sin free man? Certainly not... "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"(Galatians2) "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, So, Jesus discerns the difference between what is pure in Gods sight and what is false. Sin is neither pure nor false, but a part of our very nature. I have to write all this becasue there are believers who read these posts as well and it must be clear and without confusion, so, sorry bout the length. I have already been "condemned to hell" by someone on these forums, so I hope you understand. "We didn't start the fire"

What about a nursery or infant delivery room? You cant kill life man... unless you believe you can I guess. "We didn't start the fire"

A very deceptive use of scripture. Her "BTW" quote is more than enough for me to see her as false (you being an intelligent man should see it quite easily as well). That is absolutely ridiculous. Not only that, her hypocrisy is leading many away from the truth. So sad. Let me interject something. I was in Israel a couple of years ago. There was a Japanese woman there who was curious to learn about who Jesus was because she saw the "Passion of the the Christ". She had "daisy dukes" on, and I mean real daisys. I was immediately turned on by this woman. What can you do? You are attracted and aroused by whatever you are attracted and aroused by are you not? Nevertheless. She ended up getting saved that afternoon and it is still one of my greatest memories. To be able to see the spirit move in someone else is a very humbling and exciting experience. Do you think God cared what she was wearing? Do you think I did? What is more important? Trying to "save" a dying world by justifying your slander in the name of God, or, accepting everyone the way they are... the way God accepts them? Spirit first, then what the spirit desires. It means clean the inside first, then the outside will follow. A pamphlet like this is a call to the contrary. Given I did not read the entire pamphlet, as I cant download on this computer the link, I have read enough to know the type. It sounds like God, but that is it... 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8" 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men. I have said it before as well. Do you think God desires to wait until you are perfect before he endows you with the perfect love he suffered to ensure we had? Im sure, if this woman truly is a Christian, God will show her error to her, if not, then she is being decieved (therfore used by deception) and doesnt even know it. She is the yeast Jesus speaks of. so sad... but a great example of the warnings Jesus gave us nonetheless. "We didn't start the fire"

You know im going to say that is the only reality you know right? irregardless... You are saying life is perishable are you not? I would like to know how you know that? And yes, I will listen. "We didn't start the fire"

You are talking about the reality that is filled with perishable things right? No offense, but ill take Gods word on this one if you dont mind... 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. For those on the side of humbleness this should make sense. "We didn't start the fire"

Im not necessarily astounded that they dont share the excitement as much as I dont understand how they didnt "hear" or "see" the truth when they read the Gospel. I have said numerous times that it is clear people accept others' interpretation of the truth instead of seeking it themselves. This is the problem, not the Gospel. Not only that... there is no revelation without the gift of the Holy Spirit. It wont matter how much you read or even how much you understand in the Gospel. It doesnt matter if you went to a school of theology or if you are a world class preacher. What matters is that the spirit is recieved. That is it. The spirit is designed only to give revelation to those who have accepted it. Why? Becasue you dont want people advocating killing homosexuals in the name of Jesus... amongst other things that are being mishandled by mans worldly perceptions of God. Do you understand what i am telling you? There is no revelation without the spirit. The spirit of your absolute best friend dying for you so that you would live in his place. This is the spirit that changes lives. Not the knowledge of scripture or even the judgement of a "righteous man", but the truth of the grace in Jesus. But, have you ever tried to explain grace to a religious person who clearly doesnt get it? What happens is the hidden hypocrisy in their own heart confronts you with almost a rage-like self righteousness and then the accusations begin. the point is that hypocrisy is not a fruit of the spirit but rather an enemy. But, it knows how to "infiltrate the ranks" so to speak and inbed itself... just read this.... (Luke)Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Teachers of the Law) And you know as well that the bread Jesus breaks at the Last Supper is also unleavened bread. As a symbol of the wholesome and pure body that the Holy Spirit indwelled in Christ. All believers are to keep an eye on this hypocrisy. "Just a little yeast leavens the whole loaf of bread". That means if there is any hypocrisy in anyone, their words are no longer pure, even and almost especially though thier actions may appear to be. In a way we do, but that is the most frustrating part for me... we cannot convince anyone as it wouldnt do ANY good anyway. the spirit moves the way it desires. Do you really think I dont want you to see what I see in the Gospel? I know if you were to accept Jesus as truth you would be a great testimony to the non religious, but moreso to the religious, as you seem to have a pure heart. But, Jesus did warn us that "If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also." (they, meaning everyone who does not know grace). So while you may see the truth in time, the entire truth is most do not, and you will find it difficult with them. However, Love is the key and the goal, not changing the perception of man with words, but with heart. Are you still not getting it? I dont AT ALL feel as if I am wasting time here with you or anyone else (although my mind does try to trick me into thinking this at times). I am trying to be as honest and truthful as I can be. It is the gentiles who rose out of Christs message more than the Jew. First for the Jew yes, but then for the gentile.. as ONE in Christ. Look at this... 10When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects (Insert.. the religious) of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." You want us to go against the entire religious system? Why? Whats the point? Jesus has already overcome the world. These are arguments, quarrels and childish deadly games inspired by the super primitive perceptions of this dying world. Why would I leave my place in heaven to be caught back up in the whirlwind of death that has and will continue to consume this world? All the worlds systems have failed and will continue to fail without Jesus. No matter what any of us say or do. It doesnt mean I will stop loving Jesus, it is just the truth of this world. It wasnt created for man, it was created for God. A light does no good if it is as dark as the darkness, rather the light has to stay on in the dark so that it is possible to see. I ask, how is it possible for a light to become part of the darkness if its very purpose is to provide light within the darkness? Your asking me to enter what will come to me anyway. Just like others who asked Jesus to reveal his glory (water to wine) before it was his time. Im sorry, but I cannot bite yet on that. I have already numerous times tried to guess my "work" in the Gospel. It is not my work therefore it is not my guess. Not only that. Jesus is one man. the apostles were originally 12. You dont need a massive wordly stage to influence the life of one. I am not after religious glory, I am hoping that there is at least just one who hears this Gospel and finds Jesus. All I know is when it comes to the ministry of the Holy Spirit, it is about power, not size. "God makes things grow." I know that wasnt the answer you were looking for, but please dont think Im ignoring the meat in your posts. You and me both brother. But this advocation of killing should not really surprise you. In fact, there is coming a time when people like me, maadmax, and ron, just to name a few, may be on the other end of that advocation as well. Not for being homosexual, but for being Christian. It is disheartening to say the least, but it is the "beginning of birth pains" and it is the way of this sick ass world. I will however say that if this girl is advocating killing of homosexuals that it down right pisses me off to the fullest absolute extent, and I know that God is the ultimate avenger and it is his to repay. However, I also seek to find love for even people like this, as I know the battle is not with man but with evils' deceptive influence. All things will be brought back to goodness and evils reign in this world has run out of purpose, though often I know it doesnt seem like it. (John)"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world." take heart, the infantile ways of this world are over, we just have to wait now. "We didn't start the fire"

Faith and Love are realities of life. Some would claim they are more real than things you can see and touch, as the things you see and touch will be gone with time. As long as life is in the Universe, so also will love be. But then you will say, no, love exists because we do, and I will ask you how is it that life has "evolved" to the point of sending and recieving love through the human mind, never to be able to do so again? It is not us who evolved into love, but rather love which evolved (revealed for the spirtual) into us... and its presence on the earth is getting stronger. The truth is that love is not a revelation of life, but rather that life is a revelation of love. That is, just because one has life doesnt mean he will have love, but if one has love, life will be revealed, and hopefully followed to the source. The only difference between a scientist and a spiritual man (definitely not saying they cant be both) is a scientist sees life as evolving and a spiritual man sees it as revealing. Life is about revelation, not evolution, although, there certainly are paralells. It seems the more we "evolve", the more is revealed technologically, philosophically, and spiritually. Science eludes to a flaw (the us and them mentality) in the correlation between God and evolution, when in actuallity, it is the spiritual mind that is being evolved in such a way that it can recieve the revelations of God. Grace is the future of Life. It is inevitable. To quote Maadmax... again, "I have seen no contradiction between science and spirituality" (something like that). I agree. Science does fascinate me, I think it is awesome to see the depth of perfection that "coincidence" (for the non believers) must attain to sustain and flourish in life, becasue I dont see coincidence, I see the real creativity of God. This is yet another paradigm (perception) difference between those who see different realities. Not to mention, we are also creations... and... created in the creators' image. these are massive revelations if one takes them to heart. There should not be an us and them, even though there seemingly is. Revelations of the spirit do not contradict what is true. Not what I have seen anyway. We are in the same reality, just different perceptions is all. I see that, do you? "We didn't start the fire"

Of course you can. The way Jesus describes it "It rains on the just and the unjust" therefore, a righteous man (a believer) can have a "worse" life on earth as an un-righteous man, and visa versa (Job). I would never claim to have a better life than you, but, I will say that I have an eternal hope that is sure and therefore in any circumstances, though they may not bring me wealth and riches, I will still have hope. That to me is worth more than anything I could ever buy. Just because I heard a little anger in your post, doesnt mean it was there. It wouldnt be the first time I mis-spoke. I just know what Christ does for me and it would be nice to run into someone like Jesus in this world. Only thing is, that someone may not yet know they belong to God and the inevitable "rebellion" may be the only part I get to be a part of. Sort of Ironic that through rebellion we find peace, but thats definitely how it was for me. I will always attempt to be patient and to ensure the Gospel is being handled and taught the same way it was taught to me. No special favors, not for me, not for the God-slandering... to me, we are equals in eyes of Jesus. Jesus is the mercy and love of God. How deep do you think that goes? "We didn't start the fire"

I applaud the use of your words here. It expresses with great intellect how far one can travel from God (to the point of mockery), but, it doesnt express how fast he accepts us when we decide to turn around and come back. read the parable of the Prodigal son. I want to respond to your post again, but for now... Love is an all consuming fire. This is not a literal fire, but it might as well be. Have you ever been hurt by love? Have you ever had a broken heart? To the point where you have no idea which way is up. You cant go outside, inside, you cant travel far enough to sooth the pain. It is a f-n hell brother... all you can really do is take it. On the flip side, the same love can fill you with life and joy. It can make you feel like your flying. It can make you sing and dance ect.. you get the idea. So in this ALL consuming fire, you have those who are swallowed up and destroyed by it and those who are filled with life and saved by it. The spectrum is eternally without or eternally with, and the way is by faith. This is far from a threat. this is the truth, and I have experienced this truth throughout my life, as im quite certain others have as well. But again to quote paul, "since what is known about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them" No offense, but you seem to have a plain revelation of what God is. Its a very wordly perception, one that im afraid wont get you too much further without the Holy Spirit. Not to mention, it is full of blame, bitterness, anger, and pride, and it sounds more argumentative than sincere. Respectively. I mean, your sign off says quite a bit doesnt it? "God opposes the Proud and gives grace to the Humble" (Isaiah) But yes, God is love. Its not his love but our faith that is weak, or non-existant in some. He even knows how much you love him more than you do. Just stay open, once you start to close down it gets harder to open up again. But if your desire is to live without God, then are you not getting that desire fulfilled? If so, then why still argumentative? What else are you trying to accomplish here? "We didn't start the fire"

This is my quote from the last big post. I just wanted to make sure people knew this is also found in the book of Romans. It is not something I just made up. However, it also is a revelation of the spirit as Paul did not write the book of Romans based on the books of the New Testament, but based on revelations he recieved from the spirit of Christ. Therefore, if someone has the same spirit, this should be quite clear even without reading it in the New Testament... (Romans 5) The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, And the entire chapter 6 of Romans. Its not that long, you can read it online at biblegateway.com if you like. But in re-reading my earlier post I saw this and wanted to add something to it and couldnt edit any longer. "We didn't start the fire"

He also told the Pharisees "Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it again in three days". Was he speaking of Heavenly things or earthly things?... Was he talking about the literal building of the temple, or was he talking about his body? For the spiritually discerning we know that he was talking about his death and he ressurection. (John 3)I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? Also he says that God is the God of the living... 7But in the account of the bush, even Moses showed that the dead rise, for he calls the Lord 'the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.'[a] 38He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; This is a curious passage for certain. But for those who have found Jesus, there is no death... only faith, hope, and love. The soul dies when it loses the ability to believe. Many way underestimate the power in hope. Again, these things are spiritually discerned. If you accept the spirit in Jesus as mercy, forgiveness, and love to cover your sin, what is planted in your heart will lead you to the truth. If not, none of this will make sense because they are hidden from your sight... At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. 10The disciples came to him and asked, "Why do you speak to the people in parables?" 11He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. "We didn't start the fire"

"would you agree with the previously stated (elsewhere in this thread) that the religious of the world are not content to let others simply live, if those others do not agree with the religion" Sorry about that, I thought this was a reference to a discussion with Ron? Apologies. To answer the question, Yes, I think there are some extreme religious people who fit that criteria. I am not one of them. Jesus says "let your light shine before men, not on them. Others have to see the love. Love is not going to smother you with impatience and inflexible bigotry. Its desire it to present itself to be wanted with great passion. I think we have at least seen that example of love in life. the connection of love is a passionate one. And I should re-iterate that just becasue someone doesnt want to be a part of whatever, doesnt mean they are predjudiced against it. Of course unless you do believe that feeling sympathy for someone is a type of predjudice? or desiring self control is a sign of self righteousness? I dont, you may feel differently. "We didn't start the fire"

The Bible does contain those things. The satanic bible is all about the self (can be and has been used as a source for atheism). The golden rule is similar to do want you want as long as it doesnt hurt anyone. The problem is you will never really know if something you did or didnt do hurt someone or not. Self Indulgence is not the way, self control is. This is a truth we would rather not accept, and why it is a life long quest for me at least. Jesus teaches self control as a virtue of his spirit. I am still learning this. I cant speak for everyone. Was that really the question your asking though? You should have already known that I knew those things were found in the the Bible. im not interested at all in argumetative debates, so Ill keep my eye open for them if you dont mind. respectively. They are not reading their bibles then, nor are they in tune with the spirit. If they had been, they would see they represent the salvation that the Jewish people held so sacred and true in thier faith for the Lord. They represent the faith that salvation came through... (Romans 11)25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. (John 2) 21 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. (matt6) For the record the quote was... "It is not mans interpretations of scriptures. It is mans ability/inability to understand, recieve, and express love. If I told you that God is love, yet you are limited in what you know about love (or rather what you believe about it), then you would be limited in expressing, interpreting, and applying this love, in fact, you would also be very vulnerable to anothers' definition of it. Which is and has been happening. " The "If" made that statement a hypothetical way to express a truth that love can often be misinterpreted and therefore can be expressed in ways that are contrary to its desires. Obviously killing people and forcing them to believe something they dont is not a method the Holy Spirit would use. Therefore, you see a mis-interpretation of the expression (and revelatiion) of love. That was my point. I sincerely did not mean to imply I was better than you, or that you were limited in recieving love. I can see how it could have been taken that way, but that was not my intention, I hope you believe me. That did sound a little wierd when I went back and re-read it, and it has been throwing me off in our discussion a bit. Again, that was not my intention at all, sorry bout that. Its not an easy thing sometime to try and separate yourself from the religious while defending yourself against the "others" (I guess your atheist?) I fight like hell to keep conciet away from my heart. Im sorry you see it. I told you that is something I try to keep a keen eye on. I did not do anything good to deserve Jesus. I was just like many of you, and still am in many ways. I think we should be able to establish ourselves as different though. That alone sometimes is enough for some people to be offended and begin accusing the other of being condescending isnt it? So, we should be okay with accepting each other and continuing the discussion without accusations, plus, I dont think any of us want to argue. This is not a quarrel, it is a discussion. A godly one at that. So we're truce in this department the way I see it anyway I hope you feel the same. Yes and No. I do believe if you havent repented of your sin and accepted Jesus as your savior that you have not found the enlightenment that brings, nor will you have the spirit to understand many of his revelations. But, I also believe... (Luke 13)So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, 'For three years now I've been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?' 8" 'Sir,' the man replied, 'leave it alone for one more year, and I'll dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.' " God is always at work. Paul (Saul) was sent to destroy Christianity. He killed Christian women and children, husbands and wives, he hated Christianity. He was a ruthless Pharisee without mercy. Jesus used this man to be one of his greatest testimonies. This is the Gospels power. It softens the hardest of hearts and enlightens the most boastful of men. It is the light. Paul of course was considered the light to the gentiles as you remember. He wrote the book of Romans, and it is full of spiritual bread that has fed and continues to feed believers. Some read it and they see nothing. Others hear the Word of God. That is at least interesting to me to say the least. Heres that slippery thing you wanted to avoid. I follow Jesus. i believe he is right. i fully understand where you can claim neither of us do though. I still wont claim you are limited or that I am more enlightened than you. that is pretty foolish to me. I will however say that I have found light in Jesus and if you have not, then in that sense you have not been enlightened by his spirit. I can also see where that may sound condescending, but again, I guess we see a definite line in our discussion. I cant claim I havent recieved the light of Jesus because one, I experienced just that, and two Jesus tells me not only that he is there, but that he will never leave. So, I have Jesus, it seems you dont? Is that fair to say? It doesnt however mean that you dont posess the qualities of his heart. It doesnt mean you cant be forgiving, truthful, loving, caring, kind ect.. it just means that you dont believe in God, or wont? So, you like others seem to long to be good people (a very small and subtle assumption, respectively) but want to leave the ultimate expression of goodness we have thus far out of that. The Father of Love. Also, I have continuously stated over and over again that I am always listening for wisdom.... (Luke 7)4The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children." Not only that. I have used plenty from these forums from things and ways I have not thought of before. So, I am listening, and using what is true. So, no offense, but I dont really like it much when you seem to accuse me of "dissmissing what they have to say" The nature of my belief is that they are lost not limited. That alone might inspire you to believe I think your limited, but people have accused me also of being limited, so we're fairly even here in regards to who we represent I think. But, I still dont think it fair to accuse me of dissmissing your thoughts and sincere effort though because the Gospel which found me when I was lost is the one I am testifying for. It is for the lost so Im sorry if that sounds like I am calling you limited. Clearly your not. Your very smart and very sincere, so your right, from this "line" I think we should move on. If I feel sympathy or empathy for/with someone does that mean I am prejudice? If it does, there have been a few comments from others on here that would also fit that description, so, again, with regard to the sides we "represent" (this side thing is sort of childish, but you and I admit it is there none the less) We could also assume predjudice is out as well, as usually its only response is often hollow argument. Im sorry you have to do that. Homosexuality is prevolent. Probably there are more in the closet than not. It is not the saving grace of my heart, if it is for others then they can dwell on the worldly and religious argument with all the others who cant see that life is more than just fleshly desires. Its even more than just getting what you want. I dont care about sexual orientation. I do however care if it is keeping people from God because if homosexuality is a sin, then it is in there with adultery, murder, rape, thievery, lying... shall I go on? Who here is NOT guilty of these things? Now do you see? It is not whether or not your a sinner. You are a sinner, I am a sinner, all preachers and apostles who ever lived were sinners. Sinners. That is not what brings people to God. However, through repentance and acceptance of the Holy Spirit you find a new desire of your heart. A desire to please God as best you possibly can. See, all we can give God is our weakness. Thats it. From there the work of the spirit is to lead one to ALL righteousness and all truth. to bring us out of the "myoptic sinful pattern" (maadmaxs quote) and show us a life that is full of goodness, righteousness, perseverance, and truth. Me trying to explain grace to someone who will not repent is definitely going to be a line in our dialogue. I have taken that step of humbleness and there is light on the otherside. I dont know if you have or not but it does make a major difference in how you percieve sin. It becomes a conflict. Something you truly dont want to do but do anyway. However, as we continue to persevere with an eternally forgiving grace, we see the spirit in us was definitely not given in vain. It produces the fruit of love, not fear. It showers with understanding not contempt. Sin brings us closer to God. Those who have the Holy Spirit can discern just what that means with no problem. Those without will claim the way to God is to sin as much as you can. I will let truth sort this one out for whoever reads this. But, Paul describes this conflict in Romans 7... I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. (Galatians)16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. (1 john)1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world. These are pleas for righteousness because it brings life, but they are filled with mercy, grace, and understanding. Where is the line? What does the blood of Jesus not cover? The point is that there is life in the Righteousness of God and that is only found through faith, trust, and love. Perseverance is another thing Jesus preaches... 21"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved So, at what point in a saved mans life does grace not become enough if it is a call to persevere in eternal mercy and love? When should I say, wait a minute, you have gone too far now? Did Jesus ever turn ONE person (besides the one doomed to destruction) away? Did he turn ONE sinner away?... lets see... 1Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession." 23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us." 24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." 25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said. 26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour. Here the disciples thought for sure this woman was not worthy of Jesus, and Jesus ended up prasing this woman for her faith. Love is found through faith, and coincidentally, faith is often found through love. Maadmax tried to explain that earlier, as did I a couple of years ago. So far the consensus seems to be its "poppycock" or "mumbo jumbo". It takes faith to love is not a true statement? I disagree. Im giving you scripture because you asked me NOT to be vague remember? I hope you at least read it. Again, the seek greater understanding came after me saying "if this is not clear for you seek greater understanding". Im assuming its still not clear? Then we have found another divider in our differences it seems. Because this was my quote from the last post and is still how I feel about... "The law given through the old testiment is a religious law. The only law that is spiritual is the law of love. Gods law is perfect in that through this law he gives not death, but life." The Holy Spirit is a spirit of discernment. It discerns all truth... He says the law has been fulfilled and grace is found through faith. He is called the Righteous teacher. If the Holy Spirit doesnt indwell your soul then you will not be able to understand and discern the spirtual things of God in Christ. So yes, everything would make more sense to you if you had the spirit. I know this is not what you wanted to hear, or, "judging" by your post, it seems you knew I would say that anyway. Our discussion would get shorter if we both would make stronger attempts at less assumption. yes it does. The entire Bible can become quite slippery if you do not read it in context with the Holy Spirit... the author. The "mix" comes together in the Gospel with this... (Matt 22) 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Thought id put in bold since you seemed to have confronted me on this one before. respectively. I really have tried to tell you. Of course it is deep and personal. It is something I am willing to stand up for is it not? I will not turn homosexuals, adulters, thieves, murders, anyone away who wants a relationship with God in Jesus Christ. If someone else feels they have the right to do so in the name of Jesus then you should focus this direction at them. Again, this, abortion, sex before marriage... ect.. all these are worldly conflicts that only lead to quarreling. I am not interested in quarreling but in presenting the grace of Jesus. Take it this way though. If I say I have a problem with homosexuality, when I do not, that makes me a hypocrite. If I accept that homosexuality has been used to separate people from God then I have to accept a stance on it dont I? My stance is with grace. Jesus looks past the flesh. God "scans the hearts and minds". He doesnt wait until you are perfect before he loves you. the love is always there, it just has to be believed and let in. If I had a church I lead, I would let anyone in. anyone. If your gay and have a spouse, I dont care. If you are having trouble with drugs and alcohol, I dont care. If you are abusive and not trying to change, I dont care. Jesus died for the sin of the entire world, and we are sin by nature. Refer to pauls words above, where he attempts to personify sin living in us for those who want to listen. Is this still slippery for you? If it is, what would you like me to say? I think all homosexuals should be murdered? I think we should be beyond this by now, but you may not have heard what I said and therefore it would be just a bunch of rambling words. Funny too though. Jesus over and over said he brings eternal life and people kept asking him what he meant instead of listening to what he said. Not saying you are not listening, just making a point. Not undesirable. Fulfilled. The law is fulfilled and grace is the new law. Did you read the parable of the wine and the wineskins? Im really not trying to blow you off, at least I dont think I am, but all this law vs spirit is the back bone of the entire new testament. It is the reason Christ came, to establish a new covenant. If you dont get this one little thing, then it too is also going to be a line in our dialouge. respectively. So far you have a hard time separating the spirit from religion (law), sin from grace, and the Word from the letters. These are all revelations of the spirit. I accepted the Holy Spirit based on what I read in the Gospel. I obeyed the message and repented and accepted Christ as truth. This is a step I took. It was the longest most comforted step I ever took. It is taking God at his word. It is taking the first step of faith... "The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32Though it is the smallest of all your seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds of the air come and perch in its branches." Jesus likens faith to a mustard seed in the other Gospels as well. The point is that faith grows from the smallest of all things. Me walking into a little room in my apartment kneeling before God in repentance and asking for the Holy Spirit was my first solid step I believe. Although, in hinesight it seems there was always work going on to get me to that point. Spiritual work that I may not have even seen happening and some that I did see. yOu get the idea. I dont no. But it doesnt mean it is not being used to keep people from God. I accept it as what it is, a sexual orientation... a desire of the flesh, or a sincere love for another of the same sex. Jesus would have been considered gay in our world today. He washed the feet of the disciples. he loved men... and women... and children... He loved with a love that goes way beyond sex.. the measure I seek. So is a homosexual someone who has sex with another of the same sex or is it someone who is attracted to another member of the same sex... or... is it someone who loves another of the same sex? And, which one do you think is more desirable for the spirit? Sex is not needed to establish an eternal loving bond with someone... Nevertheless. Jesus says... 3The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[a] and they are life. john 6 Given that teaching, what am I to accept? That homosexuality is an eternal sin, or that there is a complete other world that Jesus introduced us to and it has nothing at all to do with the sinful pleasures, trappings, and endless debates of the perishing ways of this world? I chose the latter. Jesus affords me that in the Gospel. He also saves the adulteress whom is to be murdered in the same example you use for the homosexual being dragged. Lets change a couple of things in what is being said though to see it more clearly... Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her. You can change adutery to homosexualtiy if you like, it wont change the outcome of the truth. Focus on these things if you like, but as for me, I have the Gospel that teaches me to accept everyone with love I was accepted with. I hope this is enough for you to see im not trying to dance or lay you off. If this fires people up then it is bitterness that should be addressed within themselves. It is not my bitterness and really I dont have to be involved in it... Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful(2 tim 2) Most everyone always pointing the finger at everyone else... (matt)16"To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others: 17" 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge and you did not mourn.' Do you see the blame he is speaking of? One of the biggest lessons in the Old Testament was to learn what it was to be blameless. It is not of Christ to keep blame in your heart. Did Jesus blame the Jews? No, he forgave them.. "For they know not what they do" Quarreling produces argument and blame, two things contrary to the spirit. Discussions on what is and what is not sin can have grave consequences to those who choose to indulge in them. Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." ...Do you think they were worse sinners? Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them—do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 11"Which of you fathers, if your son asks for[f] a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!" I tried to not be too vague. I would just post the entire Gospel, but these verses in particular are what led me to trust God with his Word and ask. This is where everything I am stemmed from. This is where my protection is and where my discernment comes from. As I said, it was the Gospel that led me to "go into my room and close the door and pray for the Holy Spirit and repentance" That is how I stand my ground in this freedom. I am sorry others seem to not be able to see it, but its there nonetheless. "Judge and you too will be judged and with the measure you use, it will be used upon you" Thats not too vague to me. I guess it is to alot of believers though. "We didn't start the fire"