Royd

We were waiting for you to do it!

I can't tell by your posts where you actually stand on the main issue, but as a whole, I believe that statement is correct. Alot of what the scientific community does in done under the guise of benifiting mankind, when, in truth, they believe that there is nothing or noone more powerful or intelligent than them. Believe me, if they had free rein to do as they pleased, there would be some horrific things done in the name of science, and all without the least tinge of conscience. This is the line of thinking behind much of the atheistic, scientific community. No God No moral law No right or wrong no repercussions This is also the thinking behind the liberal left within politics. They walk hand in hand.

As I recall, science demands absolute proof, not just biased assumptions, before coming to a conclusion. You, as a scientist, must be the one to prove your hypothesis. I'm sure that with some serious research, it could be proven that the Apostle Paul was who he said he was, collaborated by secular sources, which seems to be your ticket to the truth.

Would you please also answer the question?

Quote Its a win....win situation. Dig a moat the length of the Mexican border. Then take the dirt and raise the levies in New Orleans. Then put the Florida alligators into the border moat! Now, that's good stuff! Can we get that person into Congress?

I've personally given up on the whole concept. I know that my lifestyle would never provide the financial support most women are expecting out of a relationship, so I save both of us the trouble. All freedoms come with their own prisons.

The bible is written on a bunch of accounts. It was common practice in the middle ages to rewrite history to suit the person who was in charge discrediting the old holder of the post, how can you tell me that the bible hasnt been subject to that. That is absolutely correct. It is a compilation of accounts over a period of about 2,000yr. I would challenge you to read the beginning of the Book of Acts, and tell me that it wasn't written in the first person by the apostle Paul. Do you also regard all other compilations of the history of antiquity as bogus? I'm sure that they have all been reinterrpruted from their original language. As for people trying to rewrite history, we see it in this country amongst the liberals who just don't like the way things turn out. Everything from Columbus to the war in Iraq.

***One final point, who says science has anything to do with morality? From most of the threads I've read, the atheist, agnostic, community claims science as their final authority on all things. They also claim that their moral compass is as good as the Christians. Therefore, that which they claim to be the highest authority in all things, must also be held to the highest standard in right and wrong. Forget business. Someone has to step up to the plate and say something is right or wrong. Sometimes, things truly are black and white.

***At one time humans BELIEVED the earth was flat as well as the center of the universe. Were they stupid? No. The truth wasn't obvious so they did the best they could with the information and technology they had at the time. QuoteNowadays, Hollywood liberals think that they are the center of the universe. Sounds like we're going downhill, fast

Look on the bright side. If it does happen, unbelievers will get lots of free shit, and the rest of us won't care!

Someone with a truly open mind, a true scientist, will explore,without prejudice,all aspects of a subject, even though the basic idea is disagreeable to him. Thus, we cannot discount something out of hand, just because it has moved through several centuries of translations. I'm sure that the basic tenents are still intact. I'll take my own advice toward evolutionary theory, and save you the reply.

Silly line of argument. 'I know pilots who've crashed planes, therefore pilots don't know what they're doing and I'm never going to go flying again QuoteThe point I am making is that as a whole, we accept by faith that the scientific community knows what they are doing because it's "science." The next thing you know our liver has been destroyed by something that they said was good for us. A chemist is a scientist. At least, when I was in high school they were. If science is morally superior, shouldn't they be holding the line on what works and what doesn't?

Yes, but these people tout themselves as the big boys. If you can't trust them for the truth, how can we trust those who are hypothesizing on something that supposedly happened 50 million, or was it 100 million years ago. It is amazing the amount of energy that is put into discounting a book that was written over a period of about 2,000yr. and we can actually hold it in our hands today. Once again, I don't see too many people discounting the writings of other religions. There must be something in the Bible that is greatly disturbing.

[I'd have thought being a skydiver you'd have more faith in yourself than God. If you really thought God existed why are you using parachutes? Surely he would save you? /quote] For the same reason that I used a vehicle to get to the dz, and a plane to get to elevation, and the same reason I'd use a boat to go fishing in the Gulf. BTW, aren't the drug companies run by scientific research? They tell us they know what they are doing,[trust us, we know what we are doing] and a year after a new drug comes out, they pull it off of the market because it's destroying people's lives. Is that the science you're talking about? I can pray all day that God will put a roof over my head, but until I get up off my lazy ass, and start digging footers, nothing is going to happen.

[/quote And this is what confuses a lot of us non-believers... The Bible appears to hold 2 contradictorary views... Old - Fire & Brimstone, Eye for an Eye : New - pacifist, Turn the other cheek The Old Testament was given srictly to the Jews. It is called the Book of the Law. The rest of the world was run by emperors, kings, tyrants, so on. The Law was given to show the people that they had no power within themselves to obey every aspect of the Law all of the time. So, a system of sacrifices was set up to offer atonement to God for the sins of the people. Thus the term,"sacrificial lamb." BTW, these lambs had to held by the priests and examined for any physical flaws. They had to be perfect. This had to be done regularly because someone was always screwing up, even if they didn't know it. Another reason was that sometime in the future, God was going to provide a once and for all sacrifice for the sins of all men. This sacrifice had to be absolutely perfect in every aspect to get the job done. I'm being a little silly here, but this is where Jesus stepped up to the plate and said," I'll do it." Alot of people believe Christians should be a bunch of mamby pamby, mealy mouthed, doormats, and are upset when they are not. I spent considerable time doing evangilism with my church, and honestly, I consider it as obnoxious as phone salemen. I,ve also grown weary of weekly and bi-weekly meetings. To me, it's like being stuck forever in your last year of high school. I understand the message clearly. Let's move on down the road, already! They say that honey will catch more flies than vinegar!

[quotThe dominant pre-christian religions were a fair bit more sophisticated than that! e]QuoteI was thinking more of the Gothic tribes of central Europe. The Apostle Paul, while in Athens, noticed that there was a deity for every possible thing, including one to the unknown God. Paul said,"I've come to declare this one to you." By his own account, he was one of the most learned men of the time, and he also claims to have written the book of Acts. Good reading, just for reading's sake.

***[You want to buy into this politically motivated hype you go right ahead. As for me, I will fight tooth and nail to try and stop it. /reply] Old thread, but it's still on the board. What exactly, are you doing to fight global warming? Do you run, walk, or ride a bicycle everywhere you go? When was the last time you hooked up with the forestry service to plant trees? Did you plant your own garden, so that big desiel trucks don't have to bring you food from across the country? Other than producing alot of hot air what have you done?

QuoteThat's an interesting observation (and probably accurate, from my perspective) but then again if we were fundamentalist Muslims.. the growth of our religion would be seen as a good thing.... dont you think? They think it's a good thing, but you can bet that they are not stacking up Qurans in their closets to hand to everyone on the street, when they decide to make their move. Quote [trying NOT to be argumenative] but what do you think that the pre-Christians were thinking when Christianity's big boom was occuring? I'm sure, by the very nature of man, that they had some type of deity, whether it was a tree, a bird , or the sun. It was something they were in awe of. Thanks for the sensible conversation!

At least they can say that they have visited a national park on their first trip to the U.S.

It sounds like a good place for a concealed carry permit.

I was going to leave it alone, but since you took it in this direction, I would like to ask some serious questions. Not just another game of one upmanship. Outside of communism, which is a dying philosophy, I consider the religion of Islam to be the greatest threat to individual liberty the world has ever known. Now, there's a theocracy! I know that in Europe, and I believe in the UK, also, it is growing insidiously.[ I just looked the word up for the correct spelling, and the definition is perfect.] What is anyone doing to squelch the spread?

Usually,Tony, when something does nothing for me I tend to go on to other things that I find more interesting. Not so in your case, or do you also like stirring the pot? It seems many people want absolute proof before they believe. That's not faith. They could find Noah's ark on Mt. Ararat filled with petrified animal dung, and it still wouldn't make a beleiver out of a God-hater. He'd probably say that it was put there as a hoax by Christians. As for asking direct questions, I did that several times yesterday in the other threads. You always dance around the hard questions like a politician, or a lawyer. So, after this great compilation of data on why Christians [ I don't see you hammering Muslims about their radical methods of spreading their religion] what conclusion do you think you will arrive at?

Yea, we've spent most of the day b.s.ing each other over other related subjects. The soup was beginning to stick so I thought I stir the pot. I obviously haven't been hanging around since 2002. I'll get the hang of it all soon enough. What time is it in the UK, and do you ever sleep? BTW, I notice that you pick statements apart and answer those parts that make you look like you are winning the argument. The ones that put you on the spot, you seem to leave alone. Just good fun!

I've only been in these forums for a few days, and it always seems that the so called atheists or agnostics,are always there to play the devil's advocate. Amazing that he would choose a bunch of sorry humans to do his dirty work. Why don't you post your own thread and boast about how nothingness has always been there to help you out in your darkest hour? Is it Christ or his flawed followers that really pisses you people off? I would love to see how many christians jump on to refute your veiws.

Getting one pawn taken off of the board doesn't mean I've tipped the King over!