Trae

in reply to "I am a newly licensed skydiver, heck, I have yet to make my first licensed jump... I was just curious how to go about gear checks away from my home DZ and with a load of unknown skydivers... " ..................................................... Welcome

in reply to "Oh his suit must have failed. Get a life people. This is my first and last post on this forum. " ............................ Why not hang around and give us a blast every now and then .. we need it. The idea that one suit is better than another is part of our sport. If you go basewingysuiting your choice of suit, at least initially , could save your life. I've found it VERY informative to watch TS exits and compare them to PF ones. There seems like a distinct tendency for worse exits with TS mattresses. Many of these flyers are new to the sport , just in from the States, even Mr Corliss's well advertised flights exhibit the ocassional kicking after a less than good exit. OK if you've got a 12 second rock drop. If its only 5??? you might eat the rock. I have NEVER seen A PF leader kick their legs after exit like a heliboogie newbie. I'm sure they did it once or even twice , when they were learning . Its a simple fact that TS suits and a lot of the people flying them , still have a bit of proving to do in the BASE world to catch up to PF suits experience and reputation. Take it easy in them hills, and I'd recommend newbies to take a small wingsuit as well...at least till yoall stop kickin..... If a suit displays a dangerous tendency to NOT WORK, then most of us are happy to hear about it no matter who made it.

in reply to " be careful. There is more to XRW than risers" .......................................... A bit off topic praps, but has a wingsuiter tried using XRW risers flying a canopy at the same time they're still flying the wingsuit? Is it possible ? just wondrin...

in reply to "Some of the personal attacks I have received in this thread and via PM's have astounded me. " ...................................................... Hi Marisan, thanks for caring about us. I noticed an increase in abusive behaviour after 'Point Break ' brought a heap of bozo surfers into skydiving world. These territorial surfy misfits brought their behaviour patterns from that sport into our sport. They didn't and don't care what it was like before they arrived. In their minds they know better than anyone else and have very little respect for mature authority. These "too cool for old schools" are actually allowed to teach people. Its all about freeflying , angles and stuff , VERY little discipline, no real form to the skydives so no-one makes mistakes , a phuck up just looks like fun and they will laugh at it rather than recognise it as a dangerous warning sign. I've watched them die like flies ..... and not just under HP canopies. We're all getting to see their learning process as they wander around trying to work out what you Marisan and your mates , already knew and still know . eg skydiving is dangerous. Skydiving with fools makes it MORE dangerous. Last surfie dude leading the skydiving pack I saw was a freeflyer a couple of weeks ago, his van was covered in surfy stickers with a couple of skydiving ones scatterred about. well he was a hero, when he turned up and guess what? apart from my goil, his chicky babe attachment , was the ONLY female on the DZ ..... go figure. I've got a new conclusion HP is scaring the girls away. .....then its just everyman for himself.

in reply to The disproportional amount of landing fatalities is being addressed, there exists a USPA canopy proficiency card. This may not be enough and many of the drop zones may ignore it. I tossed out an idea, and we are open to MORE information being MORE available to students. Canopy education will increase. The balance will return. What I think Marisan has not realized is the fulcrum has shifted for the better since his time, though he may not see it that way. " ................................................ Yep those old guys did a lot for us. They tested a whole range of equipment that hadn't been proven like our modern gear. They found the edge . Our reserves still reflect a direct influence with canopies from 30years ago. Our reserves are like old mains. They gave some of us a balanced risk minimisation /fun factor mindset They gave us so much it wouldn't fit in a very large collection of books. (what's a book? ) Little kids are taught to tell the difference between opinion and fact not long after they can run without banging into things all the time. We as adults still have to use these skills learnt in the playground. If HP newbies was a group in the playground , who would want to go anywhere near them? psycho kid?. Can't you see the bodies scattered all around them? They're learning, but THEY"RE stupid. The smart kids are playing with slower more long term toys , they skin their knee instead of losing it.

In Reply to "really?- seems the trick is doing that with a less than rigid design -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If it were easy, someone would have done it already. .......................................... I wish some-one would its driving me kerazee My Exo-suit design is alive and well on life support. I'm glad my calculations are on par with Kallend's. At 20sq/ft 200lb the achievable landing speed drops into the mid 60's . With good high lift devices I'm expecting the landing speed to drop to around 60mph or even lower. If this was some-ones job, rather than my hobby , this thing would already be in the sky.

in reply to ">a) Tailgate. People want tailgate aircraft. I'd disagree there. Teams don't want them. They get a big advantage by being able to be in the air as they launch. In many cases bigways don't want them - trail planes are harder to coordinate when there aren't a few people who can see the lead plane's people 100% of the time. As an instructor I don't like them - less control over a student before exiting. It's a lot harder to blow an exit from an Otter than from a Skyvan. " ....................................... Some teams might not like them but they're adaptable. Diving formations out the back of a tailgater gets you flying pretty quick. One of the major advantages of a tailgater is that you can be moving before you exit the aircraft. Not so much a poised exit but more dynamic. This is useable by teams to actually get flying into the 2nd formation quicker than a side exit , as the momentum input required can be dialled in before even leaving the aircraft. Watch a good team dive out the back of an tailgater and tell me they're not flying just as quick (I'd say quicker) as a side exit. Big ways need to see out ...put in a window. As an instructor less control over student because why? they can stand up? might want to practice that one. Lot harder to blow an exit from an Otter than from a Skyvan? , once again practice makes perfect.

in reply to "100% agree, but I do not think that someone who lacks a significant history of "high performance" canopy flight, after an entire industry becomes based on it, should have any credibility to ban it. "........................"But dramatic complaining online is not helping anything. " ................................................ In a strange way its is helping us . Your more respectful replies have made it easier to listen to you and hear YOUR wisdom. I'm thinking , what Marisan is showing us, is the very real possibility that a group of whuffo's could make an attempt to ban things in our sport. We're supposed to be self-policing. Marisan's a policeman from way back. he was a member of a skydiving community that was truly self policing. WE're not doing a very good job of it with the HP canopies/newbie/training slow burn cluster@#$%. I happen to know more than a few people, who would love to blow our sport out of the sky. The reason being, that they have lost loved ones that went skydiving and didn't come back alive. Some of them have to wipe their kids arse for the rest of their life. Some of them are skydivers that were mislead by go-too-fast fools. When these people went to the DZ , much later, after their grieving process allowed them to face the place, what they saw disgusted them. I was embarrassed to be a skydiver in their presence. They hate us with a vengence we might not understand. How many more innocent civilians are going to be killed by being allowed to fly canopies they are not ready for and have not been trained for ? Most of these dead kids have parents, siblings, cousins , a mass of relatives, plus friends, that love them beyond life. They can't ever forget what happened to them. Marisan is just warning us , those people I mentioned don't bother with the warning. WE can duck and weave all we like , but we are collectively to blame unless we do something to stop this . Some people are personally to blame. Have you killed or injured an innocent kid today, through your negligence, at your DZ? There might not be any selfpolicing there yet.

in reply to "This is a moot debate, throw your PC properly and maintain a symmetrical body position with closed legs on deployment and there is not an issue. I have over 1000 wingsuit flights with a normal container, pc and bridle and have no issues. Keep it simple and deploy properly. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I had the very same idea, but I have to admit, a container has its part in the quality of deployment. With the very same canopy in a Javelin as tight fit, does not open as nice and clean than from a Vector II loose fit. " ........................................... OK , I tried it today, ie attaching a handle to the base of the throwaway PC. I pitched from full flight and had a very similar deployment to the normal short bridle throwaway system ....ie unsatisfactory. The PC was snatched out of my hand and travelled straight down the side of my leg where it went into the burble. I tucked my chin in a bit more and it lifted off clean enough. My diagnosis? Short , normal skydiving bridles really suck for wingsuiting...little matter where the handle is. As you get better and the wingsuits bigger the short bridles just don't have the reach to get into clean air. I know , I've tried to do as I'm told for too long. eg you won't need a different bridle if you pitch prorperly. This is dangerous BS. There's so much more to it than that. People who do full shut down deployments may have fewer issues. My cure , I listened to a wingsuiter who knew what he was talking about. He didn't tell me to pitch properly , as if I had forgotton how to He told me to get a new long bridle and stop $%#@in about.

in reply to "The only loss of control I see is -YOUR- loss of reality. Skydiving changed old man, for better or worse it changed and left your giant slow parachutes behind. This happens in every action sport out there. Someone finds a way to make it safer, faster, stronger, longer, and more fun. Though not always in that order. It seems the people that can make it better are trying. It's getting better every day. New requirements at dropzones and more BS in the BSR. ......................................... Another reality spinner What Marisan is suggesting doesn't sound like a loss of reality to me , quite the opposite. It sounds like good old common sense. And like you say its happening anyway...but very slowly...dumb speed. It might be different in other parts of the world , but here we listen to the old guys , the survivors are smart as @#$%. and they usually have our best interests at heart. Most of it sounds like ......"Just wait a minute, have a think. Not yet. OK MOVE !." How many of you young guys can do that? ie take command. Old guys do it naturally if you work with them and they'll train you without you knowing it. If YOU said "Just wait a minute ... etc" I'd tell you to piss off. If an old guy says it ..I listen. I reckon you'd tell the old guy to piss off too. Thats your disconnect from reality right there.

in reply to ". I have over 1000 wingsuit flights with a normal container, pc and bridle and have no issues. Keep it simple and deploy properly. " ................................ +0 You have 1000 ws jumps , So @#$%in' what? I can't share an idea? just sit in the corner and shut up eh ? I'm gunna try this idea and see if its an improvement. I'll let you know what happens.

in reply to "anyone have the desire to share their experiences with horseshoe mals? in particular, any which occurred with you ultimately tangled in a ball of lines, risers, and locked bag after cutting away... " ..................................................... A close friend of mine had this experience. He was trying to dock on people and they kept trying to get away from him. It took a while for him to realise that he had a problem on his back, that they could see but he couldn't. Then the lines started wrapping around his arms as he looked behind him. He went to cutaway but realising he was still way high , he paused, looked down and saw his pilot chute still in his belly band. he tossed it and then cutaway (tapewells), and deployed his reserve OK. We still laugh about the people trying to get away from him and him chasing them with medusa on his back Later on ...I had a PC in tow with a pullout system that turned into a sort of horseshoe . Luckily it never completely hooked up on me, but was whipping my head , arms and legs. I tried kicking the bag away but it came straight back . The bag had spun through lines and was still closed. I cutaway and deployed my pullout reserve at the same time. then I experienced peripheral ground rush ( I invented that term ) as I was looking up at a snivelling reserve and the excellent PLF, army style , training that I had received .. saved my life. It is a scary thing mate, but you CAN deal with it. I had a PC/ bag hesitation last weekend doing a wingy . It scared me , for a micro second until auto training set in and I shook it off before I realised what I was doing. Ahh.... the benefits of good training.

in reply to "what good reason is there to use a pullout system " .............................. Sorry , should have made it clearer , I'm not a huge fan of the pullout system as such for wingsuiting, but the thought was , putting the pud on the base of the PC. it still operating like a throwaway but getting inflation at arms stretch.

in repl to"Door size Door position " ........................... If its not a tailgater you're wasting your time. PLEASE give us a decent tailgate aircraft to jump out of . Side doors suck in comparison. can't wait to see it , all the best with your project. edited to add look at the Skyvan or Casa , imo that is getting very close to an ideal skydiving aircraft, very versatile. Where the Skyvan falls down a bit is being able tpo see out easily. Being able to stand up in the jump plane is a major advantage.

in reply to "Here's where your disconenct from reality is showing through. The Sabre2 and the Spectre are most certainly NOT HP canopipes. " and later on "It just depends on the WL. If people loaded them the same way they loaded a Pegasus, the Sabre2 is not high performance. " ......................................... Thanks for clarifying that, its getting much easier to totally agree with you. I'm thinking that an ideal newbie learning canopy, say up to 100 jumps , would be better off having reltively heavy control input required. Not so heavy that you can't operate it, but heavy enough so a newbie can really feel what they're doing. Perhaps the lighter toggle/riser pressure is part of the disconnect that gets them / us into trouble...making the canopies just that much easier to over-control when people get too excited or surprised by something...even if they are used to it when things are more normal. The attachment is from TIME Dec5 2011 mag , a Nobel-winning psychologist and economist Daniel Kahneman. In his world , people would have to consciously opt out of decent canopy training rather than into it.

in reply to"Guess again, slick. My first 10 jumps were on various F-111 canopies, sized from 280 to 240. Then I was allowed to jump the 'hot' student rig, an F-111 220sq ft Cruise Lite (aka the Bruise Lite), and I latched onto it for about 40 jumps. When I finally bought my own rig around jump 50, it was stuffed full of clapped out F-111 PD190, and I pounded in on that right up until jump 100, when I finally had the money to upgrade to a Z-po canopy. ........................................... The thing is,generally speaking , I don't even disagree with you. I just think a Sabre2 is a HP canopy and you don't. in reply to "I've been there, and experienced the suck. I've also been here, and everywhere in between. " Now that's just a gem. can't wait to go everywhere ....must be fun.

Hi craigbey, spelt your name right this time, We could cross swords on this , your experiences verses mine ,etc etc But this isn't about me or you, its about our sport allowing the crap to continue. its become normal has it ? When people bounce, sensible people find out why. If the gear sucks they avoid it. How many this year ??? What about how many in the last 20 years? My guess (your's is wrong by the way) is that our industry will pull its finger out eventually and mandate canopy type/ experience levels to protect the public as they enter our sport. So many questions.... go ask your instructor

in reply to "Wrong. The instruction is there. Right now, it's just too difficult to find at some DZ's and participation is voluntary. You know that the culture did not change over night. It tooks many years to evolve and become what it is today. During that time you and others in 'your generation' were involved in the sport in some way. As pointed out by Trae, there were warning signs many years ago. What did you do about it then? Nothing? So now others are being blamed for 'just watching the carnage'? " .................................. craigbey. What did I do about it ? What a tale that would be.....its still going on now. I'm a regular jumper, I jump as much as I want to. I jumped last weekend, wanna jump this weekend etc etc As a FT instructor in the 1990's I'd say to people "you shouldn't be jumping that canopy you're not ready for it. its dangerous to you and other people. " They saw that like saying they should go back to kindergarten, when it was just the truth. I'd already seen the same canopies knock out highly experienced people...and these guys were turkeys. The people that had the power to actually say "NO you can't jump that canopy", didn't use it. At the time they were too distracted by their new tandem industry...and the sudden influx of real money. Plus ....the operators, generally weren't very good skydivers and they knew it. They let the controls slip out of their hands and straight into the hands of the fastest landing person on the DZ. Many still do. DZ's I like to get to lately are very well run . I'm impressed . If a person turns into a skydiver at one of these DZ's they're getting old school wisdom along the way...and lots of it. New school? you guys skipped too many classes. edited cause got dyslexic...again

in reply to "At about 20 feet he initiated a 45 turn to get out of the shit. I couldn't believe how hard he hit. " ............................ That guy was lucky, he only hit from 20ft. You should see the mess when they hit from higher up.... sorry no you shouldn't , its disgusting , such a pointless waste of life. it looks psychotic and is. you know straight after, what happens ? the little chooks run around all surprised and freaked the fuck out, hiding their drugs , as if they're surprised that the 3 day binge finally caught up with them. Wait til happens near you and see what you think. and the solution is so simple....but our sports balls aint dropped yet apparently.

in reply to "In terms of canopies, a jumper who learns to jump on a newer wing, and downsizes slowly to a Sabre2 at 1 to1 will have no problem with the lower toggle pressure. They will just come to know that as 'toggle pressure', because without the Pegasus to jump for comaprison, the toggle pressure isn't light or heavy, it just 'is'. .................................................... You're making it very clear to us oldies what has gone wrong. Thank you. I'm lucky, BS doesn't baffle me. The basic problem is newbies getting onto canopies they aren't ready for . Who's allowing this irresponsibility? Who's encouraging this irresponsibility? One thing creating and perpetuating this problem is guys like you, that don't really know what it was like in the 1980's, telling newbies what it was like in the 1980's..and pushing the line that all things are better now. " its all OK, the lighter control input required to kill yourself is normal now ", you are adding I hope that "it will be MUCH easier for you to hurt yourself on this canopy than it was for those people flying those safer older canopies." you could also tell them "Us modern skydivers, discarded the hard earnt wisdom of our elders and started over again. That's why we recreated all the death and injury under canopy, so we could be better than them. You see that's why so many people are getting killed and injured under canopies too hot for them. These guys think its OK to fly around on an elliptical rocket, straight out of student training....cause they're used to it ?????? Most of these modern AFF trained people feeding their lines constantly to newbiesguys are simple usurpers. They aren't caring properly for their charges . In the dim ol'past, eg 1986, these newbies just wouldn't have been allowed to jump those canopies, especially given the incident rate. And you know the funny thing, they wouldn't have wanted to. These modern up to date skydiver guys are telling newbies to fly these things but don't know how to teach them to save themselves. Once again davelepka , you got some great stuff to share mate, but please don't try telling us what it was like when you weren't there. We can tell the difference , you're just guessing.

in reply to " How could you compare the two? If you compare them WL for WL, you'll find that the Sabre2 is not a high performance canopy. How big was a Pegasus? 220sq ft I think, so if you put an average sized jumper on a Sabre2 210 or 230, it is not going to perform like a HP canopy. It's going to perform better than a Pegasus, but it's not high performance. " ........................................ Toggle/ riser response on a Sabre 2 makes it HP in my book...even at lower loading that thing will turn radical without too much effort. A Pegasus had much higher control input required and to get a similar radical turn you had to really work at it. This is a kind of built in safety device that modern light toggle/riser pressure canopies don't have. Light toggle/riser pressure can of course make a big difference on a newbies first panic turn. The HP monster part of your nice docile Sabre2 is sitting there waiting , it may only monster you when you don't want it too...but it will be your fault not the canopies , never the canopies eg a recently noted Sabre2 newbie landing. too high ...bit of front riser...oopss.... overshoot ......half flare ..pop-up......float........not sure what to do with toggles.....bit sideways ...let up toggles a bit ...reflare.... contact....up quick ....dust off...bit limpy . I can't remember Pegasus canopies being like that even heavily loaded , although then they did have a nasty stall, but most canopies do don't they? If I was a student now and had full knowlege of the fast canopy death and injury trail, I wouldn't go anywhere near anything even slightly elliptical eg Sabre2, until I had done my time on a truly forgiving rectangular canopy. I've had multiple prangs on 7cell F111 200 size canopies , prangs that would have killed me if I'd been under a Sabre2. Its more than just the loading, how does that sucker perform when things go wrong? If your canopy goes all HP just when you need it to set you down safe, then that's not forgiving, its dangerous. How'd would you like to land off with a Sabre2 on a night jump. not me, my old 7cell no worries deep brake , slow motion. With my Katana , no thank you. It has a lot to do with the canopies . I expect them to save my life as well as be fun.

in reply to "through. The Sabre2 and the Spectre are most certainly NOT HP canopipes. " ........................................................ Hi davelepka, you're a real good skydiver, I can tell. I like your posts and have learnt a lot considering them. But you're wrong on this one. A Sabre2 IS a HP canopy, especially compared to a Pegasus. Your Velocity is an EXTREME HP canopy. you hot shots have changed the accepted standards. Now A licensees are expected to learn to fly a HP canopy pretty well from the get go. Your 16 years in the sport puts you starting in the mid 1990's. Have you even seen a Pegasus? When the Pegasus came out it was a hot canopy for the times. All the good guys, not the wannabes, were jumping them. If Marisan was flying one , with his 2000 jumps way back then, that is an indication to me that it is more than likely, that he is a pretty hot skydiver. He's seen and done things very few of us will ever get to experience. ...and we're the poorer for it. He did it in a safer environment with better canopies suited to the purpose and with mates that cared greatly about him and his continued survival. Now who's leading the crowd.? Go Fast? or is that just more redbullshit. It doesn't look to me like they care as much as Marisan and his mates. If students were introduced to skydiving with a peaceul canopy and not allowed to fly HP , Sabre2's included, until they had proved themselves on their docile little life saver. A couple of hundred jumps when you're starting out , where your canopy doesn't constantly try to kill you. I think we'd all have more fun people to skydive with and not just a bunch of speedy canopy freaks....and the litter of bodies they leave behind.

in reply to "Maybe the rigs need to be re-designed in order to accommodate wingsuit flyers " ................................................ no Maybe about it ,there's definitely room for improvement . We're just making do, quite OK usually , with what we've got. A bit of bridle length increase, a roll of the bag to point the bag grommet in the direction of deployment, close attention to slack line placement in the container and usually things are ok. But if one bit of the bag gets caught during deployment , it may be in a spin already as it bounces off your feet , shedding lines and looking quite mesmerisingly fatal until the interesting opening that follows. You suddenly realise how inadequate the gear is . With just one little slip of packing or deployment attention you may get a reserve ride. We need less finicky equipment. a simple upgrade would be ... dynamic corners. No more snaggy baggy. The whole throwaway thing seems woobbly too. Tossing out a Pc and hoping it inflates seems a bit haphazard . I've been wondering if a pull-out might be more effective. I've jumped pull-out reserve rigs (ie handle on base of pilotchute not the top.) that worked VERY well. The reserve pc would get snatched out of your hand before full arm extension. Perhaps something similar would work with a wingsuit main deployment. .....perhaps not.

in reply to "Again, I through the ball back into your court.... It's up to guys like you to bring along the NEWBS. Hell, I'd love to learn a thing or two from you. Mentor the youngons and form them into skilled jumpers.... the 30 ways will return to your local DZ! " ............................................ I'm sure you're fun to jump with too mate. I tend to be slow but sure. Practise makes perfect. Funny how you don't hear 'rushing like a madman makes perfect'. I disagree though about bringing along the newbs. That's not my responsibilty. They got to bring themselves along for the ride...form their own groups based on gradual skill aquisition and dedication to the task. of course it suits some temperaments to have a gaggle of newbs but not me. .... they get real heavy man...and dependent. GIVE em the basics (taking $$$$ for this is just fine by me), SHARE the rest. One thing, if anyone jumps with me, I learn WITH them, not them learning FROM me. I'm learning right now. This is an important distinction necessary to create a true learning environment...eg on every jump. So many pro's just don't get that...and they've taken your money and gone before you realise , they've got things to learn too, but YOU're paying. ..and are most likely left with a HP canopy you don't really know how to control unless you pay another pro. That, my friend, is a set up . You're left always chasing some-one elses ball. Funny thing, a mate and me were watching some newbie freeflying videos, and it occurred to us that the skill level was about on par with pioneering baton passing from the dark ages. They really looked like pioneers. These guys had been professionally trained just not exposed to sport skydiving yet.

Just for anyone interested in what our leaders in australia are feeding people through the national skydiving mag. I've got my opinions of the ASM/drug /fast canopy connection but they are unprintable.