erdnarob

Hi Jerry I have reproduced word for word what was written on my manual at the end cover. But since you mention Pioneer which I have visited in the 70s at Elligton, Connecticut, they indicate in the manual that Pioneer was the manufacturer and that the first public view of this canopy has been made at Orange Massachussets Parachuting Center in 1962. I jumped at Orange in 1975 and 1979. In 1975, I made my first 12500 ft high jump with Lew Sanborn D1 in the Cessna on the way up. Lew signed the jump in my logbook afterward. Lew signed again my first jump from the Boeing 727 at Quincy Ill. in 1992. It was the first time that people were allowed to jump a Boeing 727. Exit at 155 mph Here is a copy of the page 2 and 3 of the Para-commander manual. I guess Parachute Incorporated (PI) founded by Lew Sanborn and Jacques Istel was responsible to edit this manual. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I have jumped a Para-commander Mark 2 for a couple of years and a Jumbo ParaCommander as well once. I still have the booklet : Para-commander owner's manual from the manufacturer : Parachutes Incorporated (PI) Orange Massachussets 01364 Here are the pages from 23 to 35 about Para-commander packing. The rest of the booklet concerns general knowledge and maintenance of the Para-commander. The booklet has 40 pages. Please, everybody interested, download those 6 documents. BTW, I have the American Papillon Owner's manual too. I bought one in 1975. erdnarob Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

You are a bit too fast on the trigger. This is a general skydiving discussion forum. The first thing I have in mind is what kind of instruction those two reported cases had. Not all instructors are able to "think" at a beginner level. It is the duty of an instructor to enhance the few most important details just before the jump. One has to provide the beginner with the elementary tools for his/her survival. At the instruction you should have an open rig, that you can put on the student, hold the risers up and ask him to undo the brakes and mock up the turns. Common sense and basic skills ! Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

As far as I know, there is only one DZ in Luxemburg, located at Noertrange near Wiltz. In Canada, near Montreal (within 40 minutes driving), you have 4 Canada leading DZs, all with turbines (Caravan, Kodiak and Twin Otter) including very competent and professional coaches and instructors. Those DZs organize boogies or special events and big way camps (both for Freefly and belly) from May to October. At least two of them are open 7 days a week. Better yet, at Laval, North of Montreal, you have a 14 ft diameter SkyVenture vertical wind tunel where you can book for professional coaching and improve your skills.Montreal is also one of world favorite destinations. Skydivers, Montreal is your town, come on in and visit us. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Well said Jerry, you are just in few words summarizing my thoughts. Lets use our brain, judgement and basic rules learned from our rigger course (structural soundness, function and compatibility). All equipement manufacturers started building equipement in their basement. I remember in the 70s when came out the three ring release. People who gave me the instructor course made fun of the 3 rings saying that was another gimmick. In Montreal in 1976 (when the now rookies were not born) I could try a demo where the three rings were just held in place by a straw to drink beverage. I was pulling one side of the webbing and another guy the other side. The straw barely bend. When I withdraw the straw, the release was flawless. As a mechanical engineering technologist and former drafman designer, I understood that we had the release of the future. Now it is the standard of the world. All of that to say that some people with a title can hide behind their title to impose their view. Fortunately some other are thinking. It always easier to believe than to think. Going along with abusive demands and adopting attitude of some people who like to keep their old and comfortable slippers, we would still jump with Capewell release on sport equipement. Capewell were beautifully designed and are still in use today but in our sport, everybody agrees that the 3 ring release is superior. Even the Chinese and Russians have adopted it. But to appreciate that, I guess one needs some perspective, knowing equipment history and do a follow up of the technology evolution. I was happy to jump a modified paratrooper T-10 in the 70s. But now, I much more appreciate flying a Katana and a rig equiped with the three rings. Rookies should listen more about the people who have seen and experienced equipment for several decades. Why scaring people by calling a law which doen't exist anyway ? Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I have experienced a two out at Perris Valley when my AAD popped out the reserve while being at the early phase of my main opening. I had pulled too low. Fortunately, the result was a very nice biplane. I undid my main brakes but kept the reserve brakes on. My landing was fine. I had hesitated to cut away my main but since the biplane was flying OK I finally let everything as is. Moreover there is still some chance that the main risers do a whipping effect and get entangled with the reserve lines in case of cut away. Later on, I discovered that I had taken the good decision by keeping both parachutes in a biplane configuration. My main was a Sabre 170 and reserve a PD 160. I believe that a reserve should have the lines shorter than the main to facilitate a biplane, which is the safest configuration with a two out. BTW the Sabre 2-170 has the suspension lines about 10" longer than a PD reserve 176. I would not recommend using a Optimum 193 when using a Pilot 168 because I believe that the reserve suspension lines might be longer than the main ones. The rationale is that, in my opinion, the parachute with longer lines will have the tendency to lead the other canopy. The discussion is open. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Hi Jerry What you are saying is just common sense. As riggers, we have to use our judgment to make the difference between manufacturer abuse and the common sense stuff. I understand that a rookie rigger will hesitate not to go by the book. It takes a certain experience (like attending seminars at PIA symposium or/and visit manufacturer factories...) to spot what I call exagerated demands. Fortunately, none of US manufacturers do that kind of abuse. The subject we are discussing reminds me the companies which are found breaking antitrust laws. They are severely punished in the US. In Canada we have laws to protect customers from companies trying to set up a monopoly and other laws protecting from false publicity or other abuses. For me there are three aspects we have to consider above all when using a piece of equipment, it is : 1) structural soundness 2) function 3) compatibility Nothing new here. If those three aspects are met, we have the tools to justify what we are doing. BTW I have packed a reserve in a WINGS container equiped with the BOOST M.A.R.D. for the first time. The BOOST is very similar to the M.A.R.D. demo you have sent me few years ago. I wonder what Eric Fradet would say about it. Regards Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Thanks Jerry to bring some more info. Yes we should have been at this rigger forum together, I think it was in 2011 at Reno. But one fact remains and it is that there is NO TSO of any AADs. On the other hand it is obvious for me that when a manufacturer makes it mandatory to use his AAD pocket and washer to be used with his AAD, the reason seems to get more money and scared the people. A car manufacturer cannot ask a car owner to do the maintenance only at authorized dealer, and the owner can use equivalent spare parts without making the car illegal. And this is the law telling that. Could you just imagine Strong Enterprises who is making both harness/container and parachutes as well making mandatory the use of his parachutes in his harness/container ????????????? And in this thread, we are speaking about closing loop thread and washer, ie the Vigil washer made specifically for AADs, beautifully made, stronger and easier to install. I have packed several reserves this Spring and all of them were Vigil 2 equiped. You bet that I have put a Deneema closing loop and a Vigil new washer. Just ask them and you will get them. Three of the biggest DZs in Quebec having two turbine airplanes each, are using Vigil 2 AADs only. I also can see that the main Vigil competitor has adopted the multimode option like Vigil, after promoting for 20 years + one mode factory set AADs. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

It is a non sense to ask a specific washer to be used absolutely with an AAD of the same brand. If another washer has been designed and tested for AAD closing loops, why not using it. It's like asking a Ford car owner to absolutely use Ford parts or to use the same tire brand than the original. This major AAD manufacturer has made mandatory the use of its pocket for its AAD only. The new Vigil washer is superior in strength and even the former Vigil washer has never be seen bent and it is easier to install. And in USA and Canada there are laws about that kind of manufacturer abuse. The question about the AAD pocket was asked at the PIA symposium rigger seminar few years ago at Reno Nevada. The riggers in the audience didn't believe the manufacturer's representative when she said that using the manufacturer pocket for an AAD of another manufacturer was not safe. If my memory is good, at this seminar, Bill Booth said that when he designs a rig, he has it tested with about half a dozen of different manufacturer reserves but cannot try them all. Making mandatory a thread, a washer, a pocket of the same brand than the AAD is abusive when there are specially designed counterparts. Get a Vigil washer and Deneema thread and judge by yourself. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I would suggest you to ask somebody to take a sideway video of your approach and landing. Anybody can do that with a smartphone. Have a look at the video with an instructor. You will see when you flare, too high or too low...and therefore you will be able to do appropriate correction. At your level, you could maybe try this. When you start your approach at 30-40 feet above the ground, lower your toggles to your shoulder to slow down your forward speed. Look at 45 degrees in front of you and when you see clearly the grass leaves, lower your toggles progressively. They should be depressed at the maximum when at 1-2 feet above the ground. Don't give up, I know your situation. Tell us when you will be OK Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Just have a close look at the diagram on my first post in this thread. You passes the loop only in one hole and secure the loop using the two notches and the knot passing under the closing loop between the 2 notches. The knot is locked as you can see in the following 2 pictures. Note : the closing loop washer and loop are generally provided by the rig manufacturer and since there are thousands of Cypres washers formerly given by Airtec to manufacturers, they still use them. But it would be nice to get some Vigil washers and thread with the Vigil 2 aluminum box. On the pictures, one can see the latest Vigil washer. This new washer is obtained from metal powder highly heated and pressed in a die just like the teeth of a circular saw, giving it a lot of strength with a smooth finish. Maybe a news for some of you. Another news maybe : There is now the new Vigil 2+ with some features slightly different than the Vigil 2 I heard that Vigil has now more than 50% of the AAD world market. Time to discover the Deneema thread and Vigil washers. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

An electronic modern AAD will cut the reserve closing loop at the altitude designed for a specific mode and therefore will initiate the opening sequence of your reserve canopy provided : 1) you have switched it on at that the DZ you are jumping 2) you understand the AAD manual and have chosen the proper mode 3) you are in a belly to earth position (if you are in a upright position, there will be not anymore a differential pressure between chest and back and the AAD will cut the reserve closing loop 260 ft higher than the chosen mode activation altitude, exception made for the Astra which has a pressure sensor in the front on the main lift web. If you are unstable and tumbling at the AAD activation altitude, no garantee of a proper reserve inflation 4) the size of your reserve is compatible with the size of the reserve container 5) your rigger follows the manufacturer manual to set up the pilot chute, the flaps and the bridle cord properly (some AAD have activated, the closing loop cut while the container has never opened) As you can see, an AAD alone is not enough to garantee saving your life. You have to understand it and do the proper settings. You need also to have a rigger who will follow the rig manufacturer directives for packing the reserve and closing the reserve container. Note : Choose a rig with a strong spring pilot chute. That will garantee that the pilot chute get thru the burble behind you in free fall. The pilot chutes on different rigs are far from being equal at jumping high enough behind the jumper's back. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I have had new Vigil to install several times but for sure, there are no Cypres washers into the aluminum suitcase provided with it. I would say that UPT have thousands of Cypres washers to let go and they include them when shipping the whole assembly. But if you ask Vigil America or Vigil Belgium to provide you as a rigger with their own washers, I am sure they will send you a small amount of them. Here is the explanation sheet provided to perform a closing loop set up (see picture) Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Cypres loop here, Cypres washer there... hey guys, you forget the loop material and beautiful washers available from Vigil. The Deenyma line is quite similar to the Cypres counterpart. But the Vigil washer is way easier to deal with when comes the time to ajust the loop length. The Vigil washer is also stronger and doesn't bend. Vigil has also developped a new washer made of metal powder pressed at high pressure and temperature. That process get a washer with no sharp edges to be removed. See the Deenyma line and the washer on the picture. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

The vertical component of the speed of a parachute thru an air mass is the rate of descent. And it is not affected by the wind speed which is horizontal nor by the horizontal speed component of the parachute Take a flat moving walkway in an airport going at constant speed. Suppose now that an ant on the right side of the walkway wants to go the other side by following a line drawn perpendicular to the edge, then the motion of the ant is not affected by the motion of the walkway. The ant travel will be the same using a walkway at rest. ie. The ant will follow the drawn line. Is that better ? In mathematics now : If two speed vectors perpendicular to each other represent the motion of an object, any of the vectors will keep the objet motion in the direction of this vector whatever is the presence or not of the other vector. However, most of the people do the mistake. Common sense can lie to us sometimes.

Warning here : It seems that the trend now for some jumpers is to get the AAD activation altitude higher than what the manufacturer has set up. Doing so can solve a problem while generating another one especially when doing group jumping. You never know, after the separation from a freefall group when, and for several reasons, you will have to postpone the deployment. Traffic, people above or under you, people too near, a person having cut away below you...etc Sometimes, it's wise to wait 2-3 more seconds for avoidance purpose when a collision can occur. In that kind of situation, having increased the AAD activation altitude to, for instance, 1200 ft, can bring you in the canopy deployment vertical distance range. Some canopies need up to 1000 ft to deploy. If it's the case and you pull at 2000 ft because of traffic, you have a lot of chance to get two parachutes out. Now, if your two parachutes get into a biplane configuration, no problem if you handle it correctly. But two out canopies can also entangle each other or worst get into a down plane configuration. Another important point is to make sure that your rigger closes your reserve container properly according the manufacturer specifications. Especially the placement of the bridle cord and pilot chute. This placement can make a big difference for the reserve deployment vertical distance. Think about this before changing the actication altitude. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I forgot to mention a big bumblebee in a cell who wanted a free ride. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Hi Rob, When you throw away your pilot chute or pull out, are you resuming the box position while looking at the horizon. That will keep you symetrical. We all develop some habit (good or bad) when comes the deployment. Maybe yours is when you look side way up causing a slight non symetrical set up in your harness !!??? Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

One time at the WFFC, I found a couple of tears near the tail on the lower skin of my Sabre 1. I had it repaired on location within 2 hours. But when I came to pack it, I found a pair of scissors inside a cell. It had happened already in the late 70s after a rib repair on my Crusair, again, a pair of scissors inside. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

It's not a good habit to look at the canopy when it's deploying. In order to keep your harness symetrical, immediately after throwing away your pilot chute, you should come back in the box position, slightly de-arched and look at the horizon. That will garantee that symetrical opening forces will pull you in an orderly manner. The result will be a canopy more staying on heading. Some canopies, like elliptical ones, are very sensitive to harness being not symetrical and start doing spirals. By looking up (and generally sideway), you are not symetrical anymore. Don't worry, when the canopy will inflate, you cannot miss the sensation. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

So many posts not answering the question here. Just like belly flyers, headdowners have to reach a terminal velocity which is higher than belly flyers since less surface is opposed to the relative wind. What one has to remember is that when reaching terminal velocity, the relative wind generates an aerodymical force equal but opposite to the total weight of the jumper, then opposite forces cancel each other. The result is zero force on the jumper. Therefore, there is no acceleration anymore. That means at that time you fall at constant velocity. The body of the jumper then is just like being at rest with no blood rush at all in the body. During the acceleration phase (from exit to reaching terminal velocity) the maximum acceleration is one G just like belly flyer. And this maximum acceleration happens at the very beginning when the jumper exit the airplane. After that, due to the aerodynamical force, the acceleration decreases to become zero at terminal velocity. Nothing to compare with jet fighters pilots who get acceleration as high as 7 G (7 times your weight) I think in this thread, there is a confusion beween the effects of the speed and acceleration. A constant speed (like an airliner cruising at 35000 feet) has no force (on the body or else) involved and provided there are no turbulences, you are like at rest. A force is generated only when there is an acceleration (an increase or decrease of speed) This is basic physics. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

for a 7 cell...the Storm 170 (pitch angle is 16.66 degrees measured) For a 9 cell...the Sabre 2-170 (pitch angle is 15.34 degrees measured) Note 1 - A 9 cell canopy will generally provide you with a stronger flare and more support at landing Note 2 - A larger pitch angle will increase the vertical and the horizontal speeds which can be interesting while jumping in higher wind conditions. According John LeBlanc from PD, two other factors contribute to do that too like the design of the canopy and the distribution of the load on the suspension lines. Note 3 - More horizontal speed means also more support and more flare at landing Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I have jumped at Texel Island DZ and also at Teuge DZ. Both are well organized DZ. Dutch people are very friendly and easy going. Teuge DZ is located on a municipal airport where airplanes, gliders, helicopters and skydivers share the sky seemingly in harmony. What is amazing is to see cows eating grass nearby since in Holland, nothing is lost due to the small superficies of the country. Texel Island DZ is another type. Texel Island is a small paradise. Sheeps, bicycles, sea, beaches, little villages and small fishing ports. The DZ has a large open area, nice and modern facilities and as soon as you are airborne, you can see the sea on both sides of the island. A must to try. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

Yes, the Carvair. I did it too. Have a look at the picture. The amazing thing was to realize that the Carvair and I had the same age. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

I had the chance to jump twice that jet, it was just fantastic. Since the seats, carpets, and all accessories inside were in A1 shape, it looked exactely as an real airliner and was at the take off the most quiet airplane I have ever jumped. Mary and Lou-Ann, two attractive California girls were the flight attendents. They "explained" us how to buckle our safety belt, showing us where were the emergency exits...etc just like in a real travel, a requirement from the FAA. The two ladies were in shorts and t-shirt and parachute equiped since they were jumping after us. For those who want to have a look at such a flight and jump, see You Tube : DC-9 jump Rantoul http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4ax-Eg0vZo It is the video of the four way I managed to do with three other friends. Not that easy since the exit has to be made one by one and the separation was several hundred feet between us due to the high exit speed. At Rantoul in 2006 (last year the WFFC has been held) the DC-9 was there for 2 days. I estimate that maybe 5-6 loads a day of 80 jumpers/load were made. Next year the jet showed up at the Skydive Chicago Summerfest. They made about 5-6 loads per day for two days. That makes for those two places about 1600-1900 jumps. Note : after a first landing at the Summerfest location in Ottawa ILL., it was found that the DC-9 was too heavy for the runway tarmac and later the airplane had to operate from Peru ILL. runway though the jumps continued to be done at the Summerfest location. The jet has been used for jumping at Perris and certainly at other places too but I have no figures. I was at the WFFC in 2005 at Rantoul and I don't think the DC-9 showed up that year contrary to what Billvon mentions. Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.