pash

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Really? I work for a living and really in NJ driving is not an option. If you want to live and work, you must drive. How would you feel about this if some ass killed someone you know because they were too cheap to get brakes?? Don't brakes save lives? ISN'T THAT THE POINT OF THIS DISCUSSION? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's not off topic. It is the first word IN THE TOPIC. My name is Jason Upchurch and I skydive at Crosskeys in NJ and have a total of 30 jumps. I don't know anything about your jump numbers or rating so I'm not sure what angle you're coming from. Let me know if you can.

These are not people I would want on the road with me. So is a WL BSR. Why is this not agreed upon as EASILY MEASURED? Either you can demonstrate or you cannot. this would be an excellent argument you make. Hence the "grandfather clause." For the "brand-new" Toyota-owning jumpers out there - brakes wouldn't be an option - just a requirement. What's wrong with that requirement?

"YOU are responsible." Every other detail follows.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brakes cost money. If I don't have them I don't drive. It cost me money and time to get my driver's liscence. In 1920 I suppose anyone could drive. There was a requirement for me to prove a lot in skydiving before I was afforded the LUXURY of skydiving by myself and with my friends. Just because I am closer to the ground doesn't mean I am afforded the LUXURY of hooking it in with a high WL. Let me gradually prove to you that I can first.

As I worked my way through AFP and my A-Liscense, I noticed that there were times that I thought I did a "less than stellar" dive. My instructors and coaches for the most part always gave me positive feedback and I'm not 100% sure of this, but I believe that it may be common to praise students in the early stages in an effort to keep them in the sport. I made it clear early on, however, that I had no ego to be bruised (when it came to this sport) and encouraged good, honest criticism of the dive. I had an instructor tell me that he was committing a "cardinal sin" when he evaluated my first solo exit at 13.5k' as "weak" when my next jump was going to be the low solo. He asked that I do another high solo first. I am so thankful that he put aside any concern that a student couldn't take criticism. The next exit was awesome (in my solo opinion and in that of my instructor). If there were some BSR, the "fucksticks" may not like it. It could, however, really help prevent a "fuckstick mill" because us newbies and those coming after us really wouldn't know the difference. It would be a plan in place that you must simply go through and that's that. I think the idea that we're trying to save the lives of people who don't know how to save their own life and body is commendable. I have not heard an arguement from anyone that this wouldn't SAVE lives. I guess the crux of the argument is what form it would take. I once heard that most deaths in skydiving could be attributed to someone attempting something beyond their skill level. What would be the problem in formally evaluating and documenting someone's skill level before allowing them to go wild with anything they want? I can differentiate the experienced skydivers from the government and big brother. They are black and white. No government official has ever asked me to practice tracking dives with them, but an Australian National Freefly Champion has. He truly had my well-being in mind. "Follow the money" - we've all heard it. What financial incentive would a 1,000+ skydiver have in recommending this plan? I DON'T CARE if it costs lowbies more money. Be the first to say you went through the program. Take some pride in it. It's as honest a plan as there is and I'm happy to be around to see it discussed. I don't think we have to worry that it's a "Patriot Act" in disguise. Prove you can do it THEN do it. If you're breaking femurs or leaving this world behind then you took it too fast.

Hi Dave, Do you have a link to the one that suggests WL requirement w/ ability to test out? Curious as to what WL requirement was on that vs. Derek's and what "test out" was specifically. thx, j

Point taken - you can see I haven't been around that long - nonetheless, I appreciate the opportunity to have some dialogue with this interesting and important topic (especially as one that this BSR suggestion would affect). I'm just now realizing that WL'ing is not everything after reading this and some related threads. Up until now, I thought a WL of 1.1:1 on a 97 was just a WL issue. I now see that different canopies fly in different ways REGARDLESS of WL. I think the hp landing could be sort of "tacked on" to the WL BSR because it seems that's the way a lot of people end up hitting hard. I haven't been around long enough to hear anyone talk about a high WL but still flying a square pattern. Thinking about it, a pure WL would be good but the hooking and swooping should be a consideration while we're at it. I've been to exactly 2 dz's. Am I correct in thinking some dz's have signs prohibiting hook turns? I wonder how popular those are? (I really mean that question by the way - I don't know). I have witnessed a lot of hook turns and swooping and really REALLY enjoyed what I saw. I admire it like an artist admires something beautiful. It would be another story to have someone with no skills attempt to forge the mona lisa. As a newbie I think the downsize issue goes hand-in-hand with the hp landings in spirit. Agreed. Let's all help limit this by putting pen to paper before someone else does. From my angle, I have no problem with making an effort to meet the goals set before me in the name of safety. This doesn't seem to be a community that caprisciously hands down rules. And we can see what's in our best interest better than those that CAN make the rules for us.

I see where you're coming from now. However, if my math is correct aren't you wingloading at 1.08? Again, if the math is right, I wonder if some of the more experienced jumpers here would consider that aggressive? From what I've read it seems like they're complaining of us lowbies (even with a couple hundred jumps more than us) jumping an aggressively loaded canopy and attempting a hp landing. As it is right now, I could do a recurrency jump, go out and buy a hp canopy jump it quietly and land it LOUDLY. I see that there is no real way to completely stop behavior like that - even thought it's an extreme example - but to train us from very early on, a responsible progression, could certainly help reduce the number of incidents that started this thread. In reality, this could quite possibly have a positive financial impact for the DZ's. If it's known that certain WL's are prohibited at certain demonstrated proficiencies, they've helped their liability by making it public and keeping a watchful eye. Maybe not to those that have been around just long enough to know how to bend the rules, but more of a benefit for those people starting from jump one after a BSR is implemented. Those people would know right from wrong from jump. Could touch on the bottom line a little more if outside forces decide for an even stricter regulation. Plus, what about the fees for these classes? That would help the DZ. Wouldn't fewer skydivers at a higher level of competency be a good thing - specific to high WL and hp landings? Too Jerry McGuire? Who's coming with me? This is where I really empathize with you. I'm hoping proponents for this BSR could identify a solution to this problem. How aggressive is a 1.08 WL? Yeah I understand. It was dear to me too but I didn't blink because it was the best use for that kind of money that I've ever put that kind of money into! I would never jeopardize my own safety and the SAFETY OF OTHERS because of money. Again, I see the rental problem but there's no way I'm WL'ing 1.4:1 for any kind of money at my experience level. (really not even a 1.2:1). And what if an escalated level of training and education was required? Would that number be reduced? I don't know but it would certainly reduce the number of those with fewer jumps! Again, I can understand your point considering how it affects you personally. I cannot however see how this would negatively impact the skydiving community as a whole. Would anyone care to tell me if the 239 he bought would be usable under any suggested BSR based on average exit weight of 250? Finally, and more to the point: are you trying hp landings currently? Because the way I see it, it's those that want to downsize to an aggressive WL ratio that also want the hp landings.

I would fully support a WL BSR and honestly don't have any real input on the form it would take. If it meant minimum liscense requirements / jump numbers / proficiency tests for certain WL ratios I'm sure the USPA and you guys with the 1,000's will be able to hash out the final look of it. It seems like opposition to this is just opposition to any governance. I'm not really a big fan of rules and being told what to do but how could anyone argue with a plan that requires MORE EDUCATION AND SKILL before attempting a WL that hasn't really worked out well for a LOT of people? I haven't really heard anything that I would call substantive. I can't see anyone on the more-experienced side disagreeing with this if they were grandfathered. I could see someone in my position arguing with it, but here I am in support of MORE EDUCATION and PROFICIENCY REQUIREMENTS. Mandated by us and for us - not by an outside organization when it will probably take a form most would not like. I don't see how it would diminish the fun or inherent risk in skydiving - only the STUPID mistakes made by people who wouldn't know good advice if it hit them in the face at 120mph. edited for spling

that's why I do all my shopping at Target. I do what I can to support the little guy.

It's an unfortunate fact that if you stay in this sport long enough, one of two things will happen. 1) You will bury a friend. or 2) A friend will bury you. The last friend that said that to me died a week later. I am still very very new to this sport and I did not expect it to be something I would deal with so soon. Needless to say it was also a rough beginning to my skydiving career and, after a couple months now, I'm still waiting to get up again. (Sort of laying blame on the cold weather right now if that flies)... "Accepting" death (skydiving-related or non) seems to be something you are forced to learn rather than something you can apply in theory. I think the people in this sport that have dealt with a friend dying and are still involved in the sport is a testament to their character. I think this is a good thread for those experienced people to share what kept them going in the tough times.

My first TI told me at least 3 times on the way up, "If I say to you 'Oh my God, we're going to DIE!' that mean's we're going to die." He screamed for about 5 seconds out the door. I went with him again 2 days later

I met Craig when I began jumping at Cross Keys in late May. When I first started going, I would camp out in my tent on the weekend but it wasn't long before I was staying at his house with the rest of the roommates on weekends. He wasn't rich but he was generous with everything he had. We were sitting around the table with another friend talking about skydiving. He said, "if you stay in this sport long enough, you could lose someone close to you." I pretty much thought the same as one of the other posters - thinking that he would always come out ok in the end. I told him just don't let it be you. We told each other we loved each other and then proceeded to get hammered. We talked about a cutaway I had and how I felt bad about maybe cutting away too early. He said either way I did the right thing - then he told me that he had several cutaways early in his career. He said he hadn't had one in 6yrs however and then I knocked him on his wooden head. He always brought fun and pure entertainment to everyone around and much more importantly, I had the opportunity to have a very good friend in him. He had a laugh you could hear a mile away. He knew he could be a loose cannon and, as another poster mentioned, he would tell people "don't spread stupid." I am newer on the dropzone and to skydiving and he would always remind me and another friend, "Don't do what I do - Learn from my mistakes." He was working to organize a boxing match to benefit a friend who was badly injured several weeks ago but hopefully recovering. We spent some nights boxing and taking care to not put each other in a coma. Still he got some good ones in and so did I The last time I saw him was 2 weeks ago, three of us just sat around playing guitar and singing along to a bunch of CD's. He commented that it was nice to spend quality time with friends rather than "sucking back beer without purpose." I'm sorry I didn't have more time with him but I am so happy for the time we all got to have with him. Blue skies Craig "I'll do the fight for free." - CK

Don't want you to think it was the actual drop zone charging. Just a guy that makes his only living from tips braving the jungle looking for canopies once the rest of us are exhausted. He's grown up there and knows the woods very well. He saved me a good amount of $$$ :)

thanks brother - I'm on board with that

Discuss price

What is "trolling" by the way?

Then you pull 500' above my hard deck! I've had line twists since and kicked out as I should have originally. By the way, they did recover my canopy, freebag, and pilot chute and after inspection by a master rigger, all checks out good. When the gear came back, the consensus was that the lines were pretty F#$% wrapped up but I suppose that could be several variables (of course I would like to think the mess I saw on the ground was the reality of what was happening in the air). So just the $150 finders fee and a 30-pack of beer for WILD BILL bought me the gear back! Hope to see you out there dude! Jason

Hi Andrea, I jumped out of a small dropzone at Sundance Farms in Labelle, FL called Skydive Southwest Florida. My instructor was JC Perren who has since moved to Deland. I'm planning on getting to FL early next year to go to the windtunnel in Orlando.

Just a quick hello and introduction to those that read these. My name is Jason and I began skydiving with my brother in FL in May of this year. I live in NJ and the instructors in FL recommended Cross Keys specifically to continue training. I've just earned my A license this past Sunday. I've really enjoyed the people and the new dimension skydiving has brought to my life. I look forward to seeing you all out at Cross Keys or whatever dropzone we may meet at.

Thanks all for the input - FYI - I paid and tipped the packer and bought the rigger a bottle of spirits of their choosing. Everyone else at the drop zone enjoyed the beer for the A License and more beer for the first reserve ride.

And thank you for your reply! Initially I was looking straight up so I didn't have ground for reference. It was also a cloudless day

Quote First of all, thank you for your reply. In reply to "why not" I'm assuming you mean kicking. Given my low number of jumps and the fact that I was fixated on my lines twisting over and over again down to my risers and then over them, pushing my head forward, I was not aware of how much time I had and I also neglected to kick as instructed. Why? It's difficult to admit but I did not perform as perfectly as I could have in the situation. Kicking very much could have saved me a long time in the woods and a good deal of money. Given the same situation, I would kick and give it a little more time. I was forced to look at the ground due to the risers being twisted but with the intensity of the situation coupled with my inexperience in dealing with it, the input meant little. At the time I recalled a video I watched where the skydiver experienced line twists where he was looking up and pulling the risers and lowering his hands to avoid being tangled as the risers closed further, he cutaway. I just remember thinking that WOW I am about to cut this malfunction away from me. Now I won't think so much of the video as I will the actual situation I'm deaing with (i.e. altitude, severity of twists, KICKING..etc). My reserve opened as a result of my RSL functioning properly. The reserve was over my head before I was able to grab my reserve handle. I did not think to pull that once I had the reserve over my head. Just more of a thought at how white (AND SQUARE) it looked.

I exited solo from 13,500' on my 25th jump to earn my A License. I purchased a new RW suit with booties and practiced mantis position with knee turns. I deployed at my planned 4,500' with quick waveoff and pull. I looked up and right immediately and observed line twists that continued down the strings and eventually into the risers. I grabbed both risers at 3 or so line twists and pulled the outward. As the twists reached my hands, I lowered my grip and continued to pull the risers in opposite directions. I never initiated a kick in the opposite direction of the line twists. At the 5th or so line twist I stopped spinning but could not pull the risers out to counter. At this point my risers had pushed my head forward but still I did not attempt to kick out of the twist. I attempted to pull the risers apart for about 5 seconds without kicking and made the decision to cutaway. Based on my recollection of time, conversations with instructors, and eyewitnesses, I cutaway at 3,500'. I was at the perimeter of the landing zone downwind and held at the edge until my final approach and stood up the landing away from traffic. I feel I was very aggressive with my center turns and though I remember feeling stable at deployment, I still believe my aggressive turns and possible casual arch, reach, pull with a slight turn caused my line twists. I was suprised by how quickly the lines twisted down to the risers. I never attempted to kick out of the line twists nor did I look at my altimeter at cutaway. I learned a few things from this incident (if this is an incident - if not perhaps it will be moved to another forum): 1) I'm still alive 2) I had more time to continue dealing with the situation than I gave it (I attribute this to my low number of jumps and never having experienced this situation before). 3) Hiking through the woods, getting stung by bees, getting cuts and scrapes from thorns, and the potential loss of $1500 will not prevent me from cutting away in the future, but given the exact same situation I would pull stable but not cutaway at 3,500', instead I would attempt to kick as I was instructed and give it to 2,500' before cutting away. I did earn my A License yesterday. I did speak with many people during and after hours and I have their insight into this situation. I would like to open it up to comment here as I have been a long-time reader but never posted here before - I know there are people here who's insight has been helpful and those are the folks I am trying to reach. Is this cut and dry or is there discussion about this? Did I learn what I needed to or did I make mistakes that I shouldn't have with my jump count? Is there more to learn?