TVPB

Where did you get that logic from? It is certainly not mine. I think I will allow you to take the credit for that. But since you want to discuss semantics: Skydiving is the delay between exiting an aircraft and initiation of your deployment (I think they call this freefall). Last time I jumped off a cliff, it didn't have a roaring Pratt & Whitney anywhere nearby so I am not going to give that rock an aircraft definition. You would need some awesome power to get a cliff off the ground and flying. But I'll check again in case I've missed something. In a hop 'n' pop from an aircraft, there is a freefall component. Albeit short. Hence you are skydiving. On a static line, deployment is initiated immediately. so you are not skydiving but are in fact parachuting. Think about that for a second, if you did a s/l would you dive out? How far would you get on the dive? Not very. That is why a s/l is not a sky"dive" but a parachute descent. Any jump off a fixed object is a BASE jump. Cliff = Earth = E = 4th letter in BASE = first half of terminology BASE Jump = . . . . Oh, I give up. p.s. the definitions are not mine. They are an integral part of parachuting / skydiving / BASE jumping vocabulary. If you don't believe me, go to para publishing and buy Poynter's manual. It has the definitions in there. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

He does NOT belong on the first list. Assuming all the info is correct, when he came off the Arch, he had no intention of jumping at that point in time. Refer to his intent and all the anecdotal evidence presented on this thread. He intended to land, cut the main canopy away, pack it, throw it down, and then jump off. He did not consciously or intentionally exit from the Arch, wind and the drag induced by his main canopy forced him off. If a gust of wind blows me off an exit point whilst I am looking over the edge, I am not going to log that as a BASE jump. He only attempted to deploy his reserve because he saw no other option to save his life at the time. People who die in an aircraft on take off or on the way to altitude DO NOT DIE skydiving, no matter what they intended to do later. They died whilst in transit to their destination. Skydiving is the freefall component of a parachute descent. The climb to height is neither freefall nor a parachute descent. Alcoholics who die in a car accident whilst on the way to a bar DO NOT DIE from drunk driving (unless they were actually drunk at the time). A mountain climber flying to The Himalayas who gets killed when his plane crashes did not die Mountaineering - even if this was his intent. He did not die mountaineering if he fell over at BASE camp and fatally injured himself. In the end, Ken sounds like a nice bloke and deserves to be remembered one way or another. To those that knew and loved him, my condolences. I sat underneath The Arch at the same location in 2003 thinking the same things. St Louis is a nice place. The people at Quantum Leap are great too.

Aaaahhhh I loved the sound of your post. Whether my earlier post is full of shit or useful, you have opened your mind to possibilities. You are thinking outside the square. A guy I used to jump with had that same philosophy. He became the best, and will probably remain so for a long time to come. Just remember to risk manage all aspects of acting on your thoughts. Stay Safe Have Fun Good Luck

Sounds good. Just remember, the more buttons you have to press, the more likely you will press them in the wrong order or miss something altogether. While we are talking about trying manouvres, There is a technique known as warping predominantly used in canopy formation base pin manouvres. It involves the use of one toggle and the opposite front riser. This one lets you keep a heading with minimal / no forward speed and minimal to no stall. Your descent rate does increase, but not as much as a rear riser stall. You could do it with a rear riser and opposite front but it is less affective. Not necessarliy for 180's but something that will teach you more about how those pesky canopies work. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

In a nutshell: If you have been a solo rock climber or hanglider pilot, or mountaineer or . . . . . . . . and you have a mindset that is capable of assessing risk and an attitude that allows you to deal with risk in a realistic manner, you are many steps ahead of someone who has played play station all their lives, and saw BASE on TV and wants to try advanced BASE manouvres early in their jump career. You are ahead because you already have a "reflex" that detects and deals with risk, you have possibly experienced danger and dealt with it (for prolonged periods in climbing), you have probably had a close call or seen others in trouble which has taught you that people are mortal beings. You probably know what your strengths and weaknesses are. Add to this the fact that many younger people in society have been brought up to believe that everyone else is responsible for their safety, whereas older members of society had to fend for themselves and deal with the consequences of their own actions. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Well said Dexter. It is a natural process. If you are too impatient to spend an extra 12 months to get the right jump numbers AND right jump experiences, invariably you will be too eager to get into low pulls, and aerobatics, and wingsuits and . . . . . . . . . Cut corners and the holes in the cheese may/will line up. The debate over jump numbers could be simplified as follows: 1 - if we do not know a persons skill or experience level, we need to use a set of criteria to ascertain their "readiness" to enter the sport. This is where jump numbers come into it. It is a guide, it is a screening process, it is like speed limits. Total freedom and anarchy WILL lead to more time spent consoling our loved ones and less time spent learning about the next skill in our sport. 2 - if we know a person well, and they have a balance of transferable skills, experiences, and appropriate psychology, then we may use those criteria instead of jump numbers. 3 - if we are to act as instructors &/or guides, we must be able to realistically assess our own skill and deficiencies. If you believe you are more capable and skiled than you really are, your prospective student has no chance, regardless of their jump numbers. There are several things that are a given: - you cannot apply exactly the same criteria and process to each individual and expect the same outcome. We are all different. We all have variable strengths and weaknesses. Our actions and the result will be different to other people. But when you look at the population as a whole, you have to set criteria somewhere below average. This is called risk management. If you set the critiera at the level of the worlds best, there WILL be unfavourable outcomes. Average people cannot perform at worlds best all the time (all other things being equal). Otherwise, they would be worlds best. But you certainly can improve with the right training and preparation. - can you BASE jump without any prior parachuting experience? Well, you can choose to do ANYTHING without prior experience. Would you be wise to do so? Definitely NOT. People who argue against parachuting/skydiving are unable to recognise an obvious fact. YOU CAN DEVELOP TRANSFERABLE SKILLS THAT CAN BE APPLIED IN BASE JUMPING. If you think these skills can't be learned, what hope do you have of teaching any skills in BASE jumping? What hope do you have of recognising areas where a person can improve on? - do elite champion athletes just turn up to competition? NO? They spend a lot of time preparing. And they start from the basics and develop their skills in a sequential manner. Similarly, there are very few people in the world who are capable of safely becoming world class in minimum time. - the more variables you introduce to any equation, the greater the likelihood that you will be unable to calculate the appropriate or favoured result. This is especially true if you have had limited or no exposure to the variables. 1+1=2 but pi*x^3/cof*(a_b^2)/45.67 is a little more complex. Throw in some time constraints and it becomes harder still. So why not expose yourself to one variable at a time. Preferably master it. But as a minimum get to know it before you introduce the next variable. In laymans terms, learn one skill at a time, minimise the number of new variables introduced on a jump. Develop your skills in a logical / sequential manner. Don't winguit until you can do stable tracking exits and you can recover from unstable positions. p.s.. There are a number of people whose jump numbers / experience / currency were one factor (of several) in their deaths. JS, TP, DT, TY, etc, etc, etc. . . . . Inexperienced outdoor adventurer psychology is another common factor. If you don't know what I mean by this, feel free to ask. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Ha ha Reminds me too much of myself and an old jumping buddy. Kids are immortal . . . . .Until they have their first injury. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Have you never heard the "is it better to use toggles of rear risers for 180's argument"? That is where the anti - rear riser group is from. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Its REALLY simple. You have 6 basic control inputs on any parachute/canopy. They are two each of front risers, rear risers, and your toggles. And any combination thereof. You can also get real tricky and fly using individual lines, harness weight shift, etc, etc, etc. Each of these inputs can lead to stalls and . . . when used too aggressively. . . . . . Its kind of like using the first 3 gears on a 6 geared race car. Heck, its a bit like flying a plane but forgetting about your flaps. Getting back to the subject. . . . . . People who don't fly their rear risers or are dead against them are generally people who are NOT in the know, or who have had a bad experience with a poorly designed canopy. To harp on some cross skilling. CRW jumpers use risers almost more often than toggles. CRW is without doubt the most aggressive and precise form of canopy control involving all 6 control inputs. Swooping is up there too. Why do thse canopy pilots use risers. Because it adds another dimension to canopy control. e.g. a bit of rear riser tweak balanced with a tiny bit of toggle input wil flatten your angle of attack and result in better glide ratio on most canopies. How about warping?????? For those that don't know, if you don't like stalling and you want to both minimise forward speed and increase descent rate, try some front riser coupled with opposite rear toggle. Then there is flying the canopy "backwards". Then there is . . . . Using only toggles is 2 dimensional. Flying a parachute is a 3 dimensional activity. I rest my case..

The attached form is about 5 years old. It was co-developed between myself & DW. It is probably the same as some of the manufacturers have published too. Logically, they should be similar if we are asking the right questions. It needs updating but served reasonably well in its time. If you have any suggestions, feel free to email me. Stay Safe Have Fun Good Luck Tom Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

If a person is looking at the list as detrimental from a business perspective, they would be better served by incorporating a high quality risk management strategy in any event they are organising. Pretending that accidents do not happen and hiding data will not come across as positive when people consider your case. They could use the list as data for their "business plan". They could say something along the lines of "This is what acutally happens (show list), this is how my organisation is managing the risk to ensure it does not happen". If an organisation is using the list to prevent something from happening, use the same logic against them. i.e. NP say that people die BASE jumping, hence it should not be allowed. You say, rangers and many plants and animals die during "controlled burning", hence, by following the same democratic process we should come to a similar decision. Animals kill people, hence we should not be allowed near them. People die in the wilderness due to exposire resulting from poor planning, hence we should not allow people in the wilderness. etc. If they do not give specific reasons for banning an activity (it's happend here in Oz), their decision should be challenged. Its a constitutional right isn't it. Good luck with it all. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

CASA - (Civil Aviation Safety Authority in Australia - equivalent to USA FAA) publish accidents and fatalities. Most motoring organisations publish statistics too. Other aviatoin sports publish incident reports. Many parachuting organisation publish lists too. The only difference is the format and method of presentation. The list is a little more personal and less formal than lists from other sports. The way I would like to see the list is in an incidentr report form format. If anyone wants an incident report form, email me. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Hi Jason Some quotes from our "feeder sport". When you start a skydiving course, the theory instructor often says "you could die doing this activity". When you sign the waiver it says (or at least should say) "this activity is dangerous". If you are a tandem master your passenger usually sits in front of you. Your most obivous visual is the warning tag on the passengers harness " this is dangerous / death / injury / etc". There can be excess social or trivial drible in the forums at times. Some people could not be bothered wasting their precious time reading through the crap in the off chance that they might find some useful information. A concise list is more interesting. Also, most people are interested in death, Not just NDG as you stated. What happens at an accident scene? Traffic slows down so that the rubbernecking masses can see carnage. The news is full of death. They would not show it if they could not get ratings. Ratings are "won" from an interested public. If the public did not want to see death, they would not show it. Current affairs programs = death and grandmas getting ripped off, computer games = death and violence, movies = death and action and love, etc . .. . . . . Tsunami in Asia = many deaths and society (as opposed to govts) digs deep to help. If it was only homelessness, less help would have been provided. etc etc etc More examples: I personally have never seen a TV story about rock fishing that did not include some references to death. I only see stories about motor races in other countries when there is a major accident. The simple fact that an activity can kill will turn many people away from the sport. i.e - classic quote "I will never jump out of an airplane because it scares me". It may also attract people with inherent psychological abnormalities. I am very interested in any data r.e. injuries & fatalities and the data is extremely useful for improving technique and technology. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Well said chuckbrown. That's what you call taking responsibility for your own actions. We have an evolving image that "WE" (meaning the BASE community) is helping to create. Jumpers give the "outside world" the ammunition to shoot ourselves down!!!!! There are lots of great, ethically responsible jumpers out there. But there are also some dickheads too. This is what society wants to hear about. That is why they tune in or subscribe or buy. I find it amusing that people will slag the media off and then go out and do something really stupid that the media end up reporting. DON't FEED THEM!!!! HELLO - IS ANYONE HOME??? IS THERE A LIGHT ON IN THERE????? When society sees professionalism, they will become less interested in mistakes when they occur. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Buy an extension container. You attach it to your main container and it has a bottom, two side flaps, and a botton flap which joins onto the top flap. Be careful with neatness. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Either I am very forgettable (a big possibility) or the shrooms in Oregon are incredible. TVPB => Tom Begic - fat bastard Australian (Croatian descent), guy who jumped with DW a lot, Beyond Extreme producer, . . . . aahhh forget it . . .don't worry. I'll see you somewhere sometime. I can't remember seeing your checkered rig. See, looks like we are both senile!!!! Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

There is a thing called sleep at night factor. If you are comfortable calling yourself a BASE jumper by doing what you propose, then go for it. I don't think there is anything wrong with doing the "jumps" you are doing. Many people will say it is a waste of time. I think it is time better spent than sitting on here writing crap to strangers (like I am now ). I have done those jumps off a building, span, and earth. Do I count them as BASE jumps? Yes and No. I personally would not credit them towards my BASE number though (if I ever wanted to apply for one). So you do whatever makes you happy. And as long as you do not adversely affect another persons life, it is OK!! CYA

Lots of variables. Lots of NEW variables. Definitely a recipe for success. That is how they teach all outdoor sports. I remember when i did my first skydive: CRW rig, skysurf board, tandem passenger, tight demo landing area, no reserve, competition jump, prize money, etc. And when I did my first SCUBA dive I had: 120m deep dive, photography, solo, it was a cave dive, fresh muddy water, icy cold, etc. But hey, I lived..... No piisfish, you are not the only one questioning the logic. Is it a troll though??? But hey, he survived so it must be OK. Each to their own. When you start, think very clearly about risk management and sequential learning. Unless you only have 12 months to live, it is always better to learn a step at a time. This is true of high school mathematics, business management, investing, sport, etc. You can opt for the multiple step process but you ARE increasing the risk. TO maintain the level of safety, if you increase the risk you should increase the level of risk management. my $0.02

Hi Ray I meant Rhonda Lea. Ray - we've already had some chats & done some jumps together. Don't you remember BD2000 and KL Tower 2001? I'd love to meet up again though. I was not far off your neck of the woods Nov 2004 (Vancouver & Seattle), but did not have enough time to travel further south. Will get there some day. CYA Ray Tom Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

I agree with the np control thing. Our national park honcho's and the politicians have given us a one paragraph response of "no you can't jump" which I find unacceptable. Not because they said we are not allowed, but because they did not give any logical reasoning or the opportunity for is to challenge that reasoning. Fact is, the reasoning may not exist or it is unsatisfactory. And their method of control is dictatorial. It is very undemocratic. Lets face it, democracy is a myth or theory that exists in some text book. Just like communism. You would be hard pressed to find those ideologies anywhere in the world. & George Orwell had it right when he wrote his book "1984". He was about 20 to 30 years out but he got it right. But most park rangers I have met are definitely in it for location & lifestyle. They have to enforce some rules that their bosses give them, and are quite often apologetic and not 100% committed to the enforcement, but it is their job. Their are certain locations where they take it too far (Y ??). That is usually due to a localised micro-culture. The new guys get influenced by the bosses or some of the old guys. rl - I'd love to meet up with you and have a chat. You are one very philosophical person. Happy Jumping . . . . No . . . . Happy Flying

Hello again Ray Some great points. Even though some people will disagree, the park rangers and their leaders and the society that created them ARE PART OF THE so alled "SUPERIOR" human race. To me, this negates your argument that the human race is superior. There are members within our race that dilute the quality. There are also many that add to the quality. The reality is that some humans deserve less respect than the chimps you mention. I'll bet Chimpanzees don't stop other Chimps from swinging from the trees & having fun. They might have disputes but they DO play. But humans do try to stop other humans from jumping from cliffs. Go figure huh! My point is that if we (BASE jumpers) are to truly prove our superiority as a race, we should enjoy our jumping whilst at the same time not contributing to the decline of other species and the environment. Whether you want to beleive this or not, there are locations where BASE jumpers damage the environment. There are many places where they look after it too. POSITIVE IMPACT IS DONE BY SUPERIOR PEOPLE. Regarding rangers and the park system. There HAS to be some level of protection because the reality is without protection, the human race WOULD trash, blow up, mine, build on, concrete, etc every inch of the planet if there wasn't some level of control. Whether you or any other jumper want to admit it or not, places like El Cap look extremely impressive and you would be bitterly disappointed to see it disappear. There is a bit of the environmentalist in all of us. The dispute with the park system is not about protection but the level of impact that any particular activity has on the envvironment & prohibition. r.e. jumping responsibility, what about El Cap and prohibition? Did we have a chance before? Who blew it? Jumpers should be accountable for their actions & the park system should be fair in its dealings. Its just like BASE jumping itself. Why not let anyone BASE jump at anytime, anywhere without training??? After all, we are superior!!!! Because the absolute majority of BASE jumpers beleive that there should be some level of control so that people are kept alive and our sites are preserved from authoritarian control due to site burning. I am personally happy for ALMOST anyone to jump ALMOST anywhere. BUT NOT EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. Its easy to get support from BASE jumpers when you are critisising national park rangers. Tom p.s. I'm fishing ;) R U biting? Luv your work. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Hi Ray I have to disagree with you on this one. Come down to Australia. I'll take you to one of my favourite jump sites. Whilst we are standing on the edge, look down. The visuals are AMAZING. A gorge that narrows as your focus moves from the edge to the bottom. A creek meanders below. Trees. Limestone caverns. etc etc Look up and out in front of you, then peer a little to the right. Wow. What a visual. This is the human "civilisation" exercising its so called God given right to exercise its "superiorority" over nature. What do you see? The other side of this beautiful gorge is being mined. Cliffs are disappearing. Trees are being felled. etc etc. I sometimes wonder how long it will be until the exit point is mined?? How superior!!! Someone will make money and spend it. The benefits of the mining is finite. But the next generation may not have the opportunity to see nature in real life. Heck, they may not even be able to use the exit point that we have grown to love. I am wondering where the superiority is here? To me, nature is a big component of BASE jumping. To see selfish, ignorant, short sited, narrow minded humans take this away in an instant of self gratification has nothing to do with freedom and being a superior race. It actually shows inferiority. Humans (& in particular Americans & now Australians) are dessimating the planet. It is ironic that both the USA and Australia have refused to sign recent international environmental treaties. This is not superiority. This is short sighted use and abuse. Cities, technolgy, progression, etc are wonderful things. But so too is nature. So too is watching a falcon and the way it efficiently glides through the sky. I'm not saying we should stop jumping sites where various species exist. But we should respect other species that exist there. We should also respect the wishes of society when efforts are made to preserve species. If we don't show this respect, then we deserve no respect in return. And we should be treated accordingly. Me. Me. Me. does not deserve respect. Happy jumping!!! p.s. I took the attached photo yesterday morning. The beauty of it is that it is less than 1km from the centre of the city I live in and a drop zone that I jump at. Due to consideration given to coexistance between nature and man, I had the opportunity to witness this. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

All too true Nick. Except one thing. The Falcons don't understand human politics as well as we should. They are protected, we are not. If an animal kills a human, we kill the animal. Why not the other way? Its unfair for humans to be selective about equality. Sometimes you have to do the thing that is perceived as correct by society in order to fulfil your desires. It all depends on what outcome you are after. Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

Powerful words. Well spoken. Its wonderful to know that people like Josh exist and that you appreciated his positive aspects. There are many people who should take note. Condolences on your loss. But remember that you have gained more than you could ever possibly lose. Keep your chin up.