Bodyflight.Net

Interestingly similar to something I said once in regards to skydiving and how this newbie sees it: fear will paralyze you.. RESPECT will empower you..

btw.... half your post is quoting the wrong person there... funny how if you use Ron's words from me they are somehow "misguided" but when you use them at me, they are ok? And as far as the awareness issues, well my previous post about the misleading statement from Ron outta cover it. My statements are no more bold than yours... when you are talking about something you know, you can say it with authority.. and so can I. As far as undermining my position... I couldn't see how that could be farther from the truth. And yes, I have learned all I can from that particular participant... and by the way Is that your attempt at some sort of Confucious like statement?

Ron, you cannot go around telling half truths... Most people may NOT bother doing the research..but I did. You said: The only report I could find states the following: This was NOT a death due to a lack of altitude awareness nor is tunnelflying the reason your friend with Tunnelrage wasn't able to save his life. I could find no actual USPA info about this jump on any of the aforemention sites, nor through my 2002 parachutists but I guess that's because he wasn't in this country when it happend. Please do not make tunnelrats out to be poor skydivers, that would be a whole nother thread.. and would be misleading to those who don't already know better.

Ok, Ron... I made a final post hours ago when you switched to the "other" thread but since you keep coming at me, I have to respond. I said: That's why I keep it [skydiving] to a minimum, always have a proper guide and get my flight time in the tunnel... much safer that way. and there is something wrong with that statement because????? Isn't that your WHOLE POINT for the last several posts? SKYDIVING ISN'T SAFE? How is acknowleging that BASHING it?????? How is maintaing a "student" attitude in this sport BAD??????? Hmmm... since I don't know who your talking about I can't speculate, contrary to popular skydiver beliefs, tunnelrats (a name you must earn) do not have altitude awareness problems in the sky. There are those of us who grow in the tunnel and those of you who join in later. There is over 42 years worth of tunnel experience (and several hundred skydives) in this room with me now and I ASSURE YOU none of us have any sort of awareness issues. Gee, and I thought we were all here to "learn from eachothers experiences" I'm guessing with this method of education "first hand experiences only" the death toll yearly would be much higher than 32. I guess all the reading I've done isn't worth anything, and the thousands of posts are useless. I'm not sure of your definition of argue, but you have been going back and forth all day, every time, more of your posts in BOLD and more exclamation points each time. I have never said I know more than you... again I feel that you are insulted and therefore are not able to carry on a civilized conversation about this subject. I am sorry to those who have watched us argue, I really thought I might learn more from this particular jumper since we have so much in common; acquaintences, drop zones, tunnel time etc. I have apparently learned all I can.

WHEW, I'm glad it's actually more than 1 in 400!! 1 in a thousand is MUCH better. 1 death in 60000jumps... or 1 in 3000 jumpers On a final note, let us all remember... Here's what the USPA says about the topic: Nobody would argue that skydiving is a safe thing to do. And statistics can be manipulated to make skydiving look very safe or very dangerous. Generally, safety in skydiving is determined by the individual. Rarely do skydiving accidents result from equipment failure or bad luck. Skydivers use good preparation and judgment to manage the obvious and inherent risks.

what does 2.5 deaths per 1000 UPSA members tell us... out of 30,000 members approximately 75 will die? or did die that year? don't know how to figure odds but is that 1 in 400 members that year? That's a high number for sure... wonder what it's like today.

Still trying to learn here..... ok?? Please define "occasionally" as in your sentence: even with all of the care, attention and handholding that instructors give their student, occasionally one doesn't just flat out kill himself. I wonder how often is occasional compared to the numbers of student, aff and one time jumpers there are every day. 1 occasional for every 5k jumps? 10k? Would these statistics assist with deciding the approximately safety level as compared to other risky sports? for the sake of the thread of course... Thank you again for continuing with me... I always have been over-inquisitive and insistent.... I only mean it with the best of intentions....

Gee I'm glad that isn't directed at me (ducks and misses the hit) Since nearly everywhere I post I reiterate that the two are not the same, and tunnel training has no impact on skydiving, only freefall. Couldn't have said it better myself. I lived on the DZ in DeLand for a short time (RV slot #4) heck I live 12 miles from there now. I see it happening all the time...just a week or so ago as a matter of fact... no false sense of security there. I've been studying you skydivers and your behavior since 1998. It never ceases to amaze me. But when the people educating me have been in this sport since the beginning, I can't help but believe them. Quade, I thank you for your smooth approach to the subject... I still on a basic level couldn't agree with you more about the possible dangers... I only wish the insurance people would believe that!!!

Very Cute!! and thats a very good tip, if I do say so myself!! but it still isn't practicing skydiving..just freefall

Are you kidding with that? Your an instructor, how can you be annoyed with inexperienced jumpers? Perhaps you should take a break? Step down off that cloud and come back down to earth with me here... arent you re-iterating the same point twice here? Is there some kind of competition going on here? You also have thousands more jumps than I yet, your the one getting bent out of shape here, as if somehow I am insulting you or your experience... Nice, really nice way to encourage and motivate. And as far as I think you need to step back and read without your personal defense mechanism... I'm the one here who believes in the safety of it.. oh, and I didn't know, but is there some sort of FAKE skydive I can make? That could help with practicing without risking my life!!! as IF I didn't already KNOW that... The poll is Skydiving is one of the safest risky sports!!! no wonder noone wants to participate here... it's ends up being a witch hunt!! I USED to believe that I didn't have to do anything to my canopy to get a 'safe unbroken bone' landing. I have since seen a report where that was proven to be untrue... and now I know better (he still didn't die) I wish you weren't so angry, I might've liked to talk to you in person about this since we apparently cross paths weekly...

THANK YOU! Your probably right, I keep saying " If I thought I was going to DIE, I wouldn't have done it" Of course there are unforseen circumstances, but I have much more control over those than some would like me to believe!!! So I thank him for not trying to SCARE me to death... I appreciate that. And that's why I still spend money on jumps

How so? The SHE you refer to was a HE, and well who says? Manufacturers of those nylon life saving devices.... who recommend 1lb per square foot, I just called PD to verify, they said you could download it on their site in the Education section and what they offer as far a guidelines for those like you. Apparently so, and others as well, but without the anger please. I am sorry if my curiousity annoys you, no harm intended for sure, but if your unwilling to educate, why are you here in a safety & training forum? Your first example: suffered a bad spot, placing him in the vicinity of a swamp and the winds were high. The jumper appeared to be heading for a clear area, but made a low turn (possibly a 90 to a downwind, to avoid powerlines and/or trees 2 MAJORLY avoidable mistakes... getting out with a bad spot, low turns to the ground Second Link: 1: hit a fence upon landing under a Cypres deployed reserve (this is an example of only 1 mistake? looks like no pull & no plan doesn't count) 3: USPA conclusion Faced with a bad spot, jumpers should plan high enough to fly a safe landing approach into a clear area. Turns must be completed in time for the canopy to recover to straight and level flight for the landing flare. (2 mistakes) 5: USPA again -Winds were reported to be ten to seventeen mph, and the jumper was in an area where turbulence may have been a factor. The jumper had insufficient altitude to safely initiate a cutaway and was apparently unable to recover from the line twists. USPA receives reports of this type of jumper-induced malfunction (this may be two in one... insufficient altitude, awareness.. hard turn at 250agl?) The next one #6(not 7): USPA says: Either jumping within his limits, wearing a helmet or jumping a larger canopy may have changed the outcome of this accident. 9: USPA says he had a HIGH wing loading and made a 180 turn at an EXTREMELY low altitude (2 mistakes again) Next: Two jumpers collided at approximately 30 to 50 feet while on final approach toward the entry gate of a swoop course. ... USPA says that the high wing loading and that you should be "be prepared to abort their original landing plans in case of traffic problems or other hazards." How does this prove your point that 1 SINGLE mistake will result in DEATH? Why are you so annoyed by having to support your statements? As far as being another person who is "right" I think that you have a short temper and are easily insulted when I apparently won't "Just take your word for it"

Yes!! Let's DO that.... Like elfanie, I feel that instead of telling me that, why don't you back it up? Let's make it educational...instead of a debate... (I hope this doesn't offend anyone) Unnamed jumper: was attempting a "high performance" parachute landing when a low turn went wrong and he hit the ground at high speed --Swooping? No doubt dangerous, high wing loading not recommended, high speed approach not recommended and low turns to the ground, again not recommended. Unnamed jumper: broke the tib/fib...Wind conditions were 11-15 mph, the last gust was 22 mph twenty minutes before the call to load. --violated the USPA's Basic Safety Requirements which states that the Max. speeds for solo students is 14 MPH. - shouldn't have gotten IN the plane, CERTAINLY shouldn't have gotten OUT of the plane. Unnamed jumper: surgery, couple of screws in the ankle, broken fibula --he proves the point himself by saying: learn from my mistake; don't jump in high winds. It simply is'nt worth it. Always trust your instincts, there is nothing wrong with riding back down on the airplane. Unnamed jumper: has a high speed cutaway --he proves the point himself by saying: Double check your gear, have a head's up buddy check your gear, leave enough altitude at pull time to handle a malfunction. and the reports go on, and on and on... Unnamed jumper: death was an aortic rupture caused by a hard opening. --now there is a did everything right... I haven't seen but just a couple of people here with THOSE kind of jump numbers. Ron - You know as well as I do, that tunnel time only means generally that you will be a better "freefaller" than someone of like jump numbers and no tunnel time, no bearing whatsoever on airplanes, wind direction, parachutes, rigs, other jumpers, canopy flights etc... And yes your jump numbers count, of course they do, so help me out with REAL facts on this thread. This is a generality that all skydivers are willing to push the limits, some of us are not. btw, I know Bill Booth too, and would still say the same thing directly to him (and next time I see him I will discuss it with him I promise) Much like the Anti-Drug campaigns, these posts are filled with lots of opinion instead of facts... help a junior jumper out with some REAL information that can educate me... Considering...... hmmm.. 'false sense of reality'. Still considering.... perhaps I do. I have had recurrency training every year, and jump as conservatively as an AFF student... besides my freefly time from 13-6.5k, but until you prove otherwise with facts... I'll have to go with the opinions of my instructors & coaches. NOW, if you take the other side of it.... how in the world do you EVER jump from a plane without already knowing how to fly? I CAN'T EVEN IMAGINE. I would probably be MORE scared if that were the case.. fortunatly, I did and as such I don't have the worry of altitude awareness, uncontrolled turns, losing heading or perspective, not even with a problem... hell my avatar shows me with no goggles over Titusville.. yes I had them had to borrow them (thanks Joao) and they didn't fit well AT ALL once in freefall... but without my training, it could've been disasterous, no doubt. Getting hurt, reserve rides, poor spots, off landings, these are things I've come to accept from skydiving, but death at my own hands?? not so sure about that one. That's why I keep it to a minimum, always have a proper guide and get my flight time in the tunnel... much safer that way... but according to your definitions, tunnelflying isn't safe either with a 20ft fall possible or colliding with surrounding hard structures. Sure we tell them they COULD die, cuz ANYONE can die at any time... but seriously, and more realistically, it's unlikely (never in 20+ years that we know about) Let's educate, aside of NOT PULLING, what ONE mistake can you make that will result in DEATH.

Your just trying to scare the newbies.. fear will paralyze you.. RESPECT will empower you..

Freeze? Distracted? Guess you shouldn't do that then huh? I appreciate the severity of skydiving for sure and your hearfelt obligation to make sure I understand... but I'll stick to the opinions of all the old timers I know in this sport with thousands of skydives each.... "It takes more than one mistake on a single jump to end in disaster"

I'm scheduled to be there, arriving Saturday morning from DeLand!!... you'll find me near the Carbone Zone somewhere I'm sure!!!

..... and that's why I stick to vertical wind tunnels for my flying, no need to risk my life for a really awesome flight!!!! your ASSUMING that I'm even aware of the danger, as if the impending doom is something I have control over... I have control over pulling or not... and steering away from objects, and speeding up my freefall, and SLOWING down my freefall, as well as slowing it down with that nylon device you mention... No argument on whether it's dangerous, but I still believe you can eliminate much of the danger... I certainly worry more about hurting myself skiing! but maybe that's the tunnel time talking... or all the really AWESOME skydiving instructors I've had... plan your jump and jump your plan

Thanks... a mama couldn't be more proud

Unfortunately, I can't read the wpd but I'm sure it's beautiful!! I dug out these pics of my Little Wing on her FIRST tunnel flight when she just turned 3 years old!! She's so adorable, and loved every second of it, I'm so proud of her....

I don't have alot of jumps, nor have I been around that long (less than 6 years) but mostly I hang back and pay attention. What I've learned: It CAN be safe, safer than my bi-weekly drives to the grocery store. It takes more than one mistake on a single jump to end in disaster. The more you do it, the more you increase your odds. But the questions is too vague 'safest'? What I always wonder is "Isn't throwing ourselves at the earth EXTREME enough that we have to add 'additional risk factors' ???" I just wanna jump, and live to see the next jump.

I have several sites... Bodyflight Network, last year transferred an average of 174mb per day... CarboneZone average 170mb per day... most smaller sites don't even get into the mb range... In MY experience, the hardest thing to deal with is providing pop3 email boxes. If it's your VPS, then consider that you'll be the one needing to actually fix it if something goes wrong... providing seperate client CGI directories and scripts amongst other things to be competitive... it's different than if your buying hosting space from some other company who installs the SQL for you... I have my own VPS's through NTT/Verio, and I'm the root access administrator. I cannot sell space as cheaply as these other guys are buying it, but it's still worth it to me to have the root access. And I still have a list of clients quite long... Hope that helps...

I always have to guess....

Titusville is Great, and the "Vehicle Assembly Building" is an awesome view from altitude, I used it for heading on my aff jumps!!, fast plane too!!! Say Hi to Joao, Juliana & Fabian for me!!!

The tunnel in the picture isn't the type I'll be referencing in my price structure since it isn't advisable to buy one if your interested in attracting some skydivers... that being said.. A good portable like the units built by Jus' Fly will run you, yes in the $300k's I probably shouldn't give you an exact figure since it might be considered selling, etc... but just for information sake.. in that range.. As far as building it yourself... I suppose you can, a few people have done that before and well, of course now you'll find all but ONE of those in the STATUS PENDING category of Bodyflight Network since they aren't really that great. Even if your one of those who thinks they could do a better job yourself... in all of our experience, I believe you will find yourself 2 years later, almost done, calling on someone (like us) for help, and having it still cost you NEARLY as much as if you had just bought one and been flying the last 2 years. We're here to help...

That particular picture was taken at Jus Fly before it was bought and taken to Texas near Houston. That is actually her 5th wind tunnel!!!!, she started at 3 years old!!! You can visit Bodyflight Network in my signature to find a tunnel near you. My husband is the best tunnel instructor and is great with the kids...perhaps we could meet you somewhere sometime.... We're bringing that tunnel to the WFFC this year, and we can go just about anywhere to any tunnel with enough notice, we're involved with all the tunnels in the US. We live near to SkyVenture here in Florida. PM me if you want!!! Anyone else too ready to get their "Little Wings" flyin!!!