rhaig

So I still don't see the issue here. Currently, defensive firearm uses prevent (as a median estimate) about 10,000 murders each year. You have stated you don't have a problem with that number. If guns were illegal to own, then those 10000 murders would not be prevented because their subjects would not have been able to defend themselves. If guns were banned, those murdered people would have to commit a crime to keep from dying. Some may, and in the process also become criminals. (insert trite pallbearer reference here) Committing aggravated assault to prevent one's own murder... worth it? The number of crimes doesn't change. But the number of murders does. Now you're talking about crime in general, not specifically murder. We can go that route if you like. We can compare violent crime rates with gun laws in metropolitan areas and/or in countries that have enacted strict gun control measures. -- Rob

That's just the murders. currently. in the real world (not your mental masturbation world) guns are legal, and criminals sometimes use them in the commission of a crime. This is a fact. Ah, but you can't just remove them. This is what I refer to as the "magic gun eraser button" argument. If you could push the magic button and make guns go away, then yes, there would be no gun crime. But that is fiction. Not fact. You are addressing fictional ideas in your ideal world where guns don't exist. You are not addressing fact. -- Rob

in all fairness. I was the one that originally brought up pipe bombs. If we're forced to use cordless drills for self defense as in Bignugget's wet dream, then he needs to recognize that the same store selling his defense weapon of choice also sells components for construction of a pipe bomb. -- Rob

that's right. If guns were banned, there would be another 10K people killed by them every year(in the context of the 2012 FBI crime reports) because they wouldn't be around to be used for defense. I'm not surprised you didn't address the facts. It seems to be your MO in this thread. (and for that matter, the MO of most anti-gun folks) -- Rob

how many pipe bombs are used in a defensive manner to prevent violent crimes (including murder) each year?? What about guns? The CDC says “almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year.” so in the context of 2012 UCR, the right to use firearms for self defense prevented between 6100 and 36000 murders, between 34000 and 208000 rapes, between 145000 and 875000 robberies and between 313000 and 1.8M aggrivated assaults. This in the context of about 8800 firearms murders in the US in 2012. So even if you ignore the survey that said 3M defensive gun uses, and go with the 500K to 1.2M numbers, that's still an median of 850000 DGU across surveys, leading to an estimated 10,375 murders prevented by defensive firearms uses. That right there looks like a good reason NOT to ban guns. Show me pipe bomb defensive use statistics and I'll be happy to do a similar calculation. -- Rob

stop being obtuse. Of course it's harder. (unless you use a high quality carbide bit and a drill with high torque) But can you also understand that the same place you buy that cordless drill sells all the materials needed to make a pipe bomb? The problem isn't with the tools used, it's the violence that is accepted in our society as an acceptable way to get acknowledgement. Reduce the reporting about individuals that do these things. (cut off their 15min of fame even if it's posthumous) Work to reduce violence in cities across the country (start with highest concentrations of all violent crime). Bring back personal accountability. All these are steps that would help more than further firearms restrictions. -- Rob

I can't tell.... Is that a race based comment, or are you advocating for the succession of California so your taxes don't leave your state? :) -- Rob

the size of a country and it's economy may contribute to the size of a tax collection agency. But how about having a smaller (simpler) tax code?? and smaller boobies generally have more sensitive nipples. Gotta find a happy medium though -- Rob

More bullshit Incidents have been dropping for decades reporting has increased much to your joy Support this statement with facts. Go for it. According to the CDC study on gun violence: http://www.ijreview.com/2013/08/73619-obama-ordered-cdc-study-contradicts-white-house-anti-gun-narrative/ -- Rob

Well, for having been defunded, there sure are a whole lot of people online talking about the CDC study that was conducted (by executive order) and how it doesn't match the expectations of the anti-gun crowd. -- Rob

I know some of the tech who worked on the base I was referring to. They were allowed to say that they were nuclear weapons techs, but could neither confirm nor deny the presence of nuclear weapons on base. There are more secure areas of any base. But getting ON basecan be as simple as a smile, nod, answer some questions, and a hand-wave. -- Rob

What if he's got a pointed stick?!?!? -- Rob

I've driven onto a base, stopped, mentioned the reason for my presence, and was waved on through. Yes, this was post-911. This was a base where there may or may not be nuclear weapons, but there are lots of nuclear weapons technicians. -- Rob

True... without this exposure to animals, some would never develop appreciation for animal life, and eventually for the natural habitat they are supposed to be in. Zoos, as sad as the captivity is to some, are a valuable learning tool. -- Rob

So you acknowledge that the law says it was OK for Zimmerman to defend himself. You just think the jury should have ignored the law (their only job was to pay attention to the law and presented facts) and found him guilty anyway? wow... that's pretty fucked up. But reading your comments up-thread, you ceased surprising me with fucked-upness a long time ago. -- Rob

clearly your grasp of the english language is better than that. So I must assume that you are restating my assertion to fit your ideas and then calling me a liar. Or your are not actually reading the post (considering it is only a few words long, I think that's not it). My assertion, if you were to pay attention, is that police are not the most proficient of all citizens, in the use of firearms. They simply don't train enough. you want something that shows that police are not the most proficient? Look up Jerry Miculek. I won't even post links as you'd end up claiming some sort of slant. -- Rob

and yet, they are not. This is why I train with my own firearm. I don't ever want to need to rely on someone else for defense of myself or my family. Especially if they are trained similarly to these officers. -- Rob

he has a thing against latinos apparently -- Rob

yet in the minds of some, police officers are the only ones to be trusted with guns. -- Rob

now who's making assumptions about the way things happened that night? -- Rob

yup... that idiot george (wasn't too smart to get out of his car in the first place) master planned all of this (including where he would let himself get beat on according to witness accounts) just so he could kill a kid. no wait... I forgot. You are willfully ignorant of the facts of the case, and closeminded about listening to any information that doesn't support the version of the events that you've already decided you believe. -- Rob

Since you didn't watch the trial, I'm not sure you know how reasonable doubt works. There was plenty of it. If you can't let it go, I don't really care. It's your mental state you're directly affecting. There is a very long thread that discusses the merits of both sides of the case. go read that. It should at least keep you out of our hair for a few days. -- Rob

so you stop paying attention to any information that doesn't support the loser's version of the story?? -- Rob

nice example of cherry-picking, or "people unclear on the concept" From this year's Executive Order mandated CDC study on gun violence: -- Rob

I prefer to refer to these situations as a D100. They never quit changing, and once you think it's stopped changing, you barely touch the table and it's rolling again.