JumpRu

People in the formation will certainly appreciate how fast you get to your slot (insert lots of sarcasm here)

I am not sure cat eye in a line itself has anything to do with it, it very well may... I only had 2 toggle fires myself in 20+ years and both were on same riser, so I blame riser for it. Also my friend had 2 toggle fires in short period of time but that was different, again bad risers but issue was that it was incorrect distance from keeper to the ring. Issue was easy reproduced on the ground - u just set the break and give it quick tag... Like when canopy opens quick. That one toggle was constantly coming out.

Don't use cheap old risers, use the one from top container manufacturer. I made a mistake of buying chutingstar risers and had 2 toggle fires on velo 84. Also even on a good risers keep an eye on toggle keeper - that may need to be stitched after several hundred jumps. Interesting that toggle fire on well loaded velo 84 did not result in cutaway or did not even go into linetwist. Just super slow opening that required lots of harness input to offset rotation that toggle fire started.

I really like your post, and I am happy to see that you have balanced views on modern skydiving disciplines. One thing I want to mention: every time I hear 'statistics' that really indicate that we look at things in general. So statement like swooping is dangerous is no different then skydiving is dangerous. Dangerous for whom? Anyone who is trying anything above their skill level in skydiving is at risk to themself and sometimes to others. Try to jump on large formation without proper training - you endangering yourself everyone on it, try to fly angle without proper training and skills - you are the danger to everyone on a load, list can be continued. I don't want to say obvious things. So same deal with swooping... Somehow everyone thinks they are great pilots with above average skills. That is the only explanation I have. Take small wing, add higher degree turn, add competition or demo environment and you increasing risk. That is also obvious. So when we say swooping is dangerous we really not saying anything... We ignore all those tiny little details like how many years in sport, how many swoops, on what wings, previous competition experience and etc and so on. I do believe that swooping is safe but you have to be honest and do things adequate to your experience and skills. Like do you need canopy loaded above 2? Do you have to do high degree turn? Swoop in traffic? Swoop thru the course? Participate in competition? It is amazing what kind of answers you get from people who got in accident... Like I am asking a person did you have any formal training? And answer is YES, many courses from top level pilots... And then I ask how long have you been swooping - answer was about a year.. WTF??? I don't want to go in more details not to embarrass the person. But that is perfect example of how swooping can be dangerous for someone like that. Another misconception is that you can be all you want to be and you just need to try harder and you will be on top level. Try to do the same with RW... Turn 20+ average on 4 way? I am sorry but just jump numbers is simply not enough for that, some people simply can't achieve that level of performance no matter how much they spend money and time and that is ok! Not everyone can be champions. But with canopy piloting everyone thinks they are next big thing:) and all you have to do is downsize and pay for some coaching.

No worries You do realize that there are light years of difference between learning to swoop, swooping and participating in CP competition? I don't do competitions and I honestly think competitions like that are not for everyone. Even participation in such activity requires a lot more then simply been able to swoop. That is just my opinion so please don't criticize me too bad for it :)

I think I mentioned like twice that I don't teach swoop Last guy who tried swooping big canopy doing small turn is now learning to walk again. And yes he did the course about it shortly before the crash. Was that bad course, hell no! I am kinda getting tired with this discussion that already turned personal, but I will leave you with one more example: So let's say some one give me JFX2 99 for a day (I never jumped that model before but I can swoop similar size velo). I will be swooping the heck out of it by sunset. If someone gives me any 9 cell larger then 109 and ask me to swoop it... I will return it politely cos that is just not safe for me. Someone mentioned Navigator 220 swoop before... I saw that video, I don't have skills or patience to even try that stunt...

List of people who did swoop Navigator is very short for a reason - that must be very difficult :)

I don't have time to provide evidence, all I can do is to share some of my thoughts, I am not saying don't do 90, but I would not spend too much effort on that. To get that perfect u have to do it lower, much lower then say 270, and that is kinda all or nothing turn, u initiate it and have very little chances to fix it it it not correct.

I really think there is fine line for this, one can practice anything up high on any canopy but trying to get anything good out of it down below on actual landing if it is 1.2 or even 1.5 is scary... I also don't believe in small turns 90-180 they are or used to be step in progression but in my opinion they are more difficult/dangerous then let's say 270. I don't teach swoop, but I saw one guy learning it and I feel like that is very smart and relativity safe way. In short, he was videographer at my old DZ, so he was already good skydiver with many jumps, he was jumping alot back then and that was large landing area with not too heavy canopy traffic. Anyway he got himself something like velo 90 and I doubt he even loaded it higher then 1.8. maybe 2.0. so he started to do 270 and every single time I saw him doing it he was super high, literally to the point when there was nothing left from whatever extra speed he got from the swoop. I was wondering myself what the heck? But he was very consistent in what he was doing and after like 100 jumps or so he lowered it so now he was not super high - just high... And he made another 200 or so jumps like that. Then in about half year or something he got it good and consistent and from that point on he was always right on the money. I feel like that was very smart way to learn things. I have no idea what kind of instruments he used, but if I would suggest it to someone I would probably mentioned optima 2 and GoPro. So one can try consistent altitudes for swoop pattern and initiation point and use GoPro to time the turn. Idea is that one has to be consistent - same turn takes same time and same altitude every single time.once u get consistent u can lower all altitudes little by little. But that is just my opinion, maybe there are better ways to do things.

I don't teach swoop, I believe people who serious about it must seek good solid instructions from professionals. Having said that there is nothing more scary then watch those new people trying to learn swoop on conventional lightly loaded canopy. There is nothing wrong to learn mechanics up high on any canopy, but problem is they quickly pass that stage and start trying it for real thinking that it is safe cos they don't do big turns and on large canopy. Last guy who was doing it broke everything possible on gigantic 9 cell canopy. That sort of got me thinking that best approach for someone is to wait with swoop thing till person is flying something that can be swooped easy.

Toggle turn probably the worse, but unfortunately front riser 90 is not a whole lot better. Quick and easy "solutions" (like limit turns to 90 or 180) for high performance flight will not help at all. There is nothing wrong with no more than 90 rule for common landing area and conservative approach but for high performance flight that turn is not the easiest.

I think you need 79 to join cool kids club, I don't know for sure cos I am not cool enough. I only can share my own opinion, and since I am not swoop champion or anything like that it probably not worth much.. so take it for what that is.. but I find 90 to be one of the most difficult turns and one of the most dangerous too. Cos u have to do it low and there is very thin line between oh waw and oh shit. 180 does not sound any better too cos u literally flying away from where u going to land, that does not feel right. I do understand that in traffic 90 degree turns helps to avoid canopy collisions but if u ask me what turn is safer for swoop I would say 270 is better then 90/180.

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Not having a good day or something? All I was trying to say is that ppl who land in main area not allowed to do more then 90 so they don't swoop by making big turns instead they all got those pocket rockets and can go pretty quick just after double fronts and 90 turn. all that look pretty but not pushing the performance envelope. You would never see any of that technique used in actual swoop competition. Would that qualify to be swoop or not? I don't think so, to me this is just what small canopy does, but you may think differently.

So I think it is clear that people who want to learn swoop not always getting adequate info of what and how to do. Maybe general canopy course is not enough? I really think that one who is serious about this should have someone watching every single swoop till one get proficient... That has to be up to individual to get adequate instructions you can't force them. Whatever cost of such training would be it will be far less then hospital bills and lost wages. Now about risk takers not to push the envelop... Reality is that lots of people with small canopies don't even swoop, I see every weekend lots of folks on 70 sqft doing 90 on landing. I would not call this swooping... And they sure not pushing the envelop of those wings cos those canopies can do much better with larger turns. But when that low 90 goes to shit everyone blame swooping that it is not the case here. Clearly there are people who swoop and I respect that but I think everyone who does need to ask themself a question what is the goal and how that can be done safer. I recently upsized from 84 after many many years of jumping those canopies to 103 and that is the best decision I made for myself. My goal is to jump as long as I possibly can and if I have to upsized again - I will do it. All that is very personal and everyone are different but I am 100 percent sure that most people don't refer to themself as risk takers, they just want to have little fun and be safe. Professional athletes - that is totally different story, I know nothing about that. But from what I can tell they are not a part of the issue.

Look, it is just like any other activity, take reloading for example... There are all kinds of people getting into this every year and unfortunately every year some people get in trouble (youtube has all sorts of videos about it) but with minimal effort one can easily develop safe round... It may not be super accurate at first, but just getting the book and general understanding of the process is enough not to get hurt. What happens here with swooping is like u just go to the store, get whatever components and mix them the way u like. That is what happens to beginners... Accomplished pilots makes tiny percentage of all but in every single case (if we want to be completely honest) one can easily find root cause of any particular incident. Would that be flying absolutely smallest canopy for person experience level (why?) Or flying it in unsafe manner (who u trying to impress?) It is easy to pinpoint the cause most of the time. There are some freak accidents but even then you can probably see that winds were doing something strange... Those always will be there. Statements lile "swooping is dangerous" they really about nothing - it is like saying driving is dangerous ... and then we learn that it was super bike and it was night and rain or speed was over 200.

U obviously want to argue... But my point is that like any other activity one has to do at least some homework before attempting to "swoop" including proper gear, proper training proper conditions... 90 percent of injured people did not do that. Another 9 percent are people who just got to go big, be next champion and etc... I honestly know very little about it but it seems to me that it probably takes lots of jumps and lots of training to fly at that level, but many people think that first step is to get that 79VK as if that would bring them closer to their goal.

If u filter out low turns done by people who has no clue what swooping is, no clue of how and when to do it, had not done hundreds jumps to find safe altitudes for it (making low turns without all that and more is REALLY STUPID) and u filter out people who thinks that flying absolute smallest wing they can land somehow makes them better pilot REALLY Stupid too) then I can assure you that by itself would bring swooping injuries well under average for skydiving.

I swoop every single jump for 15+ years, and what you guys are saying makes very little sense. There is HUGE difference between someone how takes methodical approach to this and someone who just decides to pull on fronts and crash, someone who just decide to go swoop the pond like big boys or someone who downsize to look cool..... I am sorry if one shows any signs of common sense and intelegence then swooping is very safe.. unfortunately common sense and patience are rare qualities now days... But that has nothing to do with discipline of swooping.

I got velocity 103 with very low jump numbers from 2009. Everything is good, but I think recovery arch is noticeably shorter then my other velo 103 that has replaced lineset. I wonder if at some point lineset for the canopy has been changed and how many different versions of linesets for velo 103 is out there? The one from 2009 seems shorter then my other velo with newer lineset

I just had a cutaway from velo84 and in that rig I have PDR113. No skyhook or RSL . Velo was spinning with me on my back, cutaway and was rolling belly to earth when I dump it... opened with no issues and felt in flight very docile... stand up with 7 mph headwind. I am 80 kilos without gear. on my other rig I had OP143, I think flare was not as strong.

Exactly, i just saw xfire3 that is buatiful canopy! So i am kinda disapointed thay saber3 does not have any of that

Well i had not jumped any of those new canopies but i recall they call it powerband and even make that leading edge with diff color fabric... But this Saber3 lookes as squere as Saber2 was..

It seems that saber 3 is not using shuman platform that was used in all those new crossfire and safire 3.. Not like i know much but that shuman platform seems to be new approach to canopy design so i kinda disapointed not to see that in new saber

I am looking for some places within driving distance from NC that plan to open on May 1st (or sooner?), but others may be interested in all possible jumping locations.