JumpRu

Last time I checked minimum jump age was 18 years and those new jumpers are all adults. They can make their own decision especially when provided with good information. We trust them to vote, we let them join the army, why we refuse to let them make their own choice in skydiving? Provide good information, advise them that is really all we can do. After all they are all licensed jumpers (not students). That is all I’m saying.

With bigways… I don’t know, this is something where you interact with other people and you basically need their approval to get on the load. There is completely different situation with those ratings, BSRs and general recommendations, they were put in place by USPA, organization we all suppose to have some influence over. At least in theory this is organization of skydivers and for skydivers and that is why we all should follow those recommendations. Usually they have very good judgment and I hope will never put “time in sport”, “proper attitude” or “wisdom” in their requirements, rules and recommendations. I doubt many skydivers would pass “proper attitude and wisdom” test

they have every right to apply for any of those ratings, just like every other skydiver. But in my post i was not talking about 100 jump wonder becoming instructor, if you understand this from my post, well i'm sorry that was not what i'm trying to say. Those “other restrictions” comes only from owner of particular DZ. DZO has every right refuse anyone to jump at the DZ without any reason at all. Some make local rules some follow USPA recommendations. That is DZ policy issue and unless we own a DZ this is not for us to decide how and when to apply those rules.

First of all, yes if one have a desire to participate in some event then organizer can ask some questions, even make some phone calls. That is one thing, but we should not become one of those “professional groups” where you have to bring recommendations and letters from “respected jumpers” to do your own skydive (jump your canopy, make a formation with your friends, swoop on landing, use video camera and etc.). Now about the rest of your post… Those are licensed skydivers we are talking about here. They were students and passed the test and now they have as much rights to jump as you and me. We have some safety rules but those rules applies to EVERYONE regardless “time in sport” and that is a good thing..

Then our duty is to explain those things to people who want to listen. I’m talking about other limitations: “no camera”, “no hook turns”, “no downsizing” and etc. There is nothing preventing person with “A” license from doing all that. Is it smart for everyone? No. But risk level is a personal choice. And one more thing, don’t be surprised if one day you’ll be asked to show your “skydiving resume” with contact numbers of “experienced skydiver” to simply jump out of airplane. We already made several steps on this slippery road.

I wonder why is that always experience guys try to put limitation on new jumpers? They used to back up their arguments with “jump numbers”, but new guys can make 500 jumps a year (I did many years ago) and tell them to go F$%^$! So this jump number thing is not working anymore. Now it is “time in sport”… not skills, not jump numbers, but simply time since first jump. I guess “time in sport” is the only thing that makes those old farts special

I'm looking forward to jump at new place! I think this is great idea! Good luck guys! yevgeniy

>Beginner + low wingloading may = very bad. This is one of the biggest pieces of bullshit I've seen on this forum in a while. Light loadings for students do work well and have for decades, no matter what anecdotal experiences you've had. Anecdotal? It sure was not funny… At least not for me.

That was on 1.1 WL canopy. I know couple other guys who has similar experience with light WL. One might say that this is just few cases, but personally for me one incident like this was more then enough. I downsized week after that. This is well known fact that small canopies perform much better in turbulence. Why do you think experience jumpers prefer to use them? Anyway you and I may have different views on the subject and that is ok. We were allowed to have our opinion... I just want all new jumpers have this opportunity to make decisions like this for them self.

I would agree with you but my own experience makes this statement questionable. I know that Beginner + low wingloading may = very bad. My canopy folded in half at 100 ft sending me back in freefall with no time to react. All thet was on calm spring day, no warning, students were allowed to jump. I'm not saying that: Newbie + high wingloading = good it is just that this is not black and white question. That is decision that affect safety BOTH WAYS. It may be dangerous and it may make you safer. That decision is ultimately for the jumper to make. Because it is his/her sorry ass will be under that canopy. S&TA may advise on the subject but he will not be there to land your canopy for you. Ideal situation looks like medium experience + medium wingloadind = good safety question is who determing those terms, when it is ok to downsize, I belive it should be up to jumper to take this decision. Our jub is to provide the facts and help to make good decision in every particular case.

Nice! I like Deland and I go there every time I’m in Florida. Would be really sad if I had to find a new place because of this stupid 180 rule

John is indestructible iron man!!! We have seen over the years some really nice downwind landings!!!

I think this is rhetorical question

I feel strongly against BSR and have posted my objections. I think that safety always will be individual choice. No BSR’s you can think of will turn hot dog into safe responsible jumpers. It is always personal choice that comes from experience and influence of other jumpers. By now everyone knows how dangerous to perform HP landings into the traffic and all we need is to teach new jumpers proper values. I’m sure that majority of skydivers understand the issue and already modified their flying technique to be safer – I did. The one who keeps doing stupid stunts on landing and consistently put others in danger are in minority and can be considered as an exception. Drop zone officials and local jumpers should work with them on individual basis. There is literally no reason for new BSR. People who put others in danger should be dealt with no matter what they did! It is not just landing it is everything from wearing seatbelts on takeoff to leaving proper separation between groups and etc. One more thing: DZ owners also understands this issue in my state 2 out of 4 drop zones already implemented their own policy for separation of HP and slow traffic and from what I know they are dead serious about it. The other DZs might also have something in place (I just don’t know about it). So there is no reason for new USPA regulation from this point of view ether.

In my state 2 out of 4 drop zones already implemented their own policy for high performance landing. So it is not like you have to take risk and jump with people who are trying to “kill you”. Vote with you money and don’t go to places that are not safe from your point of view, just like I will vote with mine and never jump at DZ that discriminate swoopers in any way. Let the DZO to do his job and stop that USPA politics crap. You really sound like a bunch of lowers

DZO don’t need no BSR to ground someone. Hell, he can ground or even kick you out of DZ forever at any moment for no reason, just because this is his place and if he does not like you then you won’t be jumping there. Period Now with BSR and you favorite authorities. It won’t be so simple. Think of a legal process. First of all you are going to provide evidence, videotapes, witness reports and etc. Then you will have to wait for next BOD meeting and then USPA won’t be able to do anything because it only revokes ratings but not licenses. Next thing you know you and the guy will hire lowers and USPA becomes a courthouse. Do you really wont all that???

Well, if that jumper was THAT dangerous under canopy then I would never be on the same jump with him or even on the same load. I have no control on others actions but i can sit one load and go on next one. Probably others should be doing the same. But I personally think that it was an accident. This is sad, this is a reminder to be careful.

sorry i edit my post later. you right that happened to me too,, some people just don't listen, one AFF instructor went with student after our 4way with 0 separation and we saw him in freefall like 20 ft away after we opened up, he went right by us. :) Well we still good friends but i pull lower then he is behind :)

and i won't rat you out to authorities, instead we will have a long and unpleasant conversation about proper separation. We will make sure that it won’t happen again. And then we go to next load. That is how it should to be. We don’t need “Big Brother” to solve our problems. I will do this because we both jumpers and we SHARE the sky. By the way in my 2200 jumps this situation happened more then once and I personally almost never had problems with other jumpers. We should trust each other and work together to make our jumps safer and still have fun. In worst possible situation (when other jumper told me to fuck off) I just made a mental note to myself and since then never jump with the guy.

bad example. Every single canopy collision we had was an accident. No one tried to kill anyone.

this is not a requirement this is recommendation. Would be perfect candidate for SIM, but they already have it there.

oh, i've seen like 4 versions of proposed BSR. None of them are acceptable. Biggest objective is that they require DZ to have something that is obviously not always there (separate landing areas, low passes and etc.). Those things are not there for the reason. Small landing areas, high gas prices and etc. Those BSRs won’t change any of those reasons so they are virtually useless and just going to create new legal problems for us.

I’m strongly against BSR. This is bad idea. Education and communication will do much more for safety.

we got your point, you had canopy collision and got scared... I don't blame you... but honestly fear is bad advisor in serious discussion. For you I would suggest to take couple months off jumping, calm down and choose places where you jump a little more carefully. All DZ are different you know...some are smaller some bigger, some doing good job on managing traffic some don’t. Just don’t act like everyone out there is after you. We are interested as much as you in safe landings. Apparently from another thread it seems like that guy who hit you was not even swooping, he was one of those who likes to spiral down over landing area. You know the type? They don’t look down at all! No wonder he collide with you. BSR would not change anything because guys like this are incapable of flying any pattern. They need education at first place, because they don’t know any better. How many jumps this guy has anyway?

in a fairytale maybe , in a real world – no.