freeflybella

You're talking symptoms. We're talking disease. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

I can't believe I"m admitting to watching Survivor - but there, I admit I watched it last night. A few of the tribe guys climbed a tree to see if the nest a mother bird was protecting had eggs in it. He accidentally knocked the nest to the ground and a day old chick fell out of it. These 2 grown men were shamed. They climbed back up the tree and put the chick and the nest back -- all the while apologizing to the mother bird and asking for forgiveness. It just goes to show me that down deep in all of us we have a respect for life. And compassion. And sensitivity. Somehow in modern life we lose that sensitivity. Cut from that scene in Survivor to a egg factory farm where baby chicks are being slid down an assembly line and separated by gender. The females go on to become "layers" and the males, often go into a huge bucket. A huge bucket piled high with nothing but baby chicks on top of each other. Left to suffocate to death. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

I don't really get the comparison but I'll try to answer your question. The definition of organically grown food is "food produced according to organic standards, which means crops grown without the use of conventional pesticides, as well as artificial fertilizers or sewage sludge, animals reared without the routine use of antibiotics and without the use of growth hormones and food processed without ionizing radiation and without the use of a wide range of food additives. It is produced on all levels without the use of genetically modified organisms" So, yeah - "I" am organic. No one questions that animals should be cared for when sick. The difference is that 'conventionally' raised meat is given ROUTINE antibiotics from day 1 til the end to stave off any number of illnesses that the animal would acquire under those unnatural circumstances in which they are raised. Routine anitibiotics, growth hormones, genetic engineering, chemical pesticides - all of this is being sold to you as 'perfectly healthy'. You're getting all of this in EVERY package of meat you buy. In every carton of milk. In every stick of butter. In everything conventionally grown. And while the government may have standards as to what each item may contain in terms of trace chemicals - they absolutely can not govern the cumulative load over a lifetime. (It's proven that infants have a much lower acceptable limit for these chemicals but adult standards apply to baby food. Doesn't that freak you out?) Lastly, why is it so important that people not be hypocritical? As long as that person isn't persecuting you for doing something they do, who cares? We all know right from wrong. We all know it's better to walk than drive, better to eat broccoli than cookies. We all do things we know aren't the best for us. NO ONE is perfect. NO ONE should expect you to be. Just be willing to learn and open your heart and mind to something previously unknown. Be willing to make small diffferences if you feel something is worth it. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

You can't just swap one out for the other. Nothing in life works that way. -Eliminate factory farming -Restrict all animal farming to pastured, organic, non-GMOd, humane practices -Significantly reduce the demand for store bought meat and animal products -Then, increase land for organic grain and vegetable crops (not to be fed to animals but to people) Ultimately it's healthier (and better tasting) for everyone. We're talking about our food supply. And ultimately our health and the health of our children. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

WHY is this thread is allowed to continue? Just because the person in question is not posting here on dz.com, does that make it OK for some that are posting to call him stupid? This is ridiculous. Add my name to the list whom support Jacko as a TM. My name isn't much anymore but then again, neither are half of yours. Seriously - WTF? Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

I never said anything about piece work (however I don't know of a single employer of assembly line work who would tolerate someone working under quota). I never said those jobs are only for the uneducated. (I did imply that you won't find many college graduates in slaughterhouses.) Meat fabricators do not make alot of money. I'm dying to know how you got this impression. The employee handbook as a concept is fine, however we all know the "employee handbook" - no matter how many times it uses the word cloaca - is not all inclusive nor is it the issue. It's not unheard of that just because a company doesn't come right and SAY something that they are not in some way complicit. Try to visit a farm and you'll be sent to one specifically chosen for effect. One where there are cows outside. Ask to visit a battery cage house or a veal barn and you won't. Companies like Tyson and Perdue and KFC have showcase farms that are not indicative of the majority of their suppliers. Anyway, I'm not asking anyone to take my word for any of this. I'm hoping you do your own research. It's out there. It happens. Just because it isn't staring you in the face doesn't mean it's right, or nonexistent. Once you see, if you can live with it - it's your choice. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

No it absolutely does not. Unfortunately I agree. Nope, I wasn't even talking about the slaughterhouses. I'm talking about the "farms". Where the animals 'live'. You can't tour those. They won't let you see how the animals live. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Like you wouldn't if you thought you could get away with it... Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

This bears repeating. As compassionate loving people, whether you eat meat or not, it's a shame that we can turn a blind eye to such widespread degradation and torture in the name of greed and gluttony. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Maybe those guys are out of jobs. Maybe not. In any case, the whole situation is a recipe for disaster. Take a highschool (or not) educated guy, put him in a dark, foul smelling enclosure with bleating and clucking animals and tell him his paycheck depends on how many of those animals he can corral and slaughter. Add to that - that all living creatures have a will to live (or an instinct to survive) - which means EVERY SINGLE ONE of them will resist him. Minute after minute, day after day, week after week. I absolutely believe that those animals pay for that frustration. The reason we don't see more of it is because factory farms will NOT allow visitors. Ever. It takes a very long effort of undercover work to get the video you see. To me, that is COMPLICITY on the part of the company. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

From the website you linked to: " HFAC’s Animal Care Standards for all farm animals mandate that feedstuffs must be free from antibiotics, growth-promoting hormones and mammalian-derived proteins, with the exception of milk and milk products. Calves must be given roughage by the age of five weeks. Since dairy beef calves are marketed at a young age, castration and dehorning are not allowed. Compassionate, gentle handling is a requirement throughout the production system, and the use of electric prods is prohibited. Buying calves from auction barns and sales barns is not permitted. Calves may only be purchased from the dairy where they were born and transported directly to the farm where they will be raised. Transport time is limited to less than three hours. All calves must have access to adequate space to stretch out and lay comfortably." Do YOU understand the implications of what they are saying? (Hint: Veal calves are removed immediately from their mothers. Most veal calves are dehorned and castrated at birth. Many if not most newborn veal calves travel in crates for days without food. Most veal calves are chained in a pen so they can't move AN INCH. Most veal calves live 40 DAYS (not 3 hours) on a diet to keep them anemic - and they live that way in dark, restricted pens without AN OUNCE of comfort (physical or emotional).) I would like to know what % of this company's veal production is Certified Humane. I bet it's not high. According to what I've heard, it's the restriction from ANY movement and totally iron-free diet that produces the 'best' veal. I personally could never support the mass-production farm animal industry - "Certified Humane" or not. But by nature we all resist change - it has to happen slowly. And when you realize that, it makes it easier to believe that your one little tiny individual effort really makes a difference in the world. Compassion, no matter how slight, is better than none. This is how most veal calves exist. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

That depends on YOUR definitiion of "Okay" and "hypocrisy". Do I think putting a label of Certified Humane on a package of meat will do more: a. to get consumers thinking about their food choices b. the conditions in which their food is raised and slaughtered and c. WHY a label professing humane treatment is needed - than not having that label? Yes. Is it enough, in my opinion? No. Do I believe that all mass production farms are cruel. Yes. Will you be sending a message that you care about the welfare of food animals by putting your money toward only meat with a Certified Humane and Organic label? Yes. Over time, could that have any even greater impact? Absolutely. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Nope! I'm vegan too. Although I'm admittedly not super great at internet debate... The point I always try to make is just 'be thoughtful'. Be willing to witness what's going on, be open to even small changes that (if you believe in the butterfly effect) may make a difference. Re: the link to Schwarzenegger... There is something just not 'right' about a society that will put a person in jail for leaving a dog on leash for more than 3 hours - and will then allow the production and sale of paté and veal...Talk about hypocrisy. Regardless of the hypocrisy - it IS a step in the right direction. It still saves many dogs from suffering. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Who cares? Everytime you eat fastfood or buy Tyson meat - you're lining the pocket of someone directly or indirectly responsible for animal torture. Why not make a thoughtful choice and support those who are trying to stop it? Somewhere, somehow - someone will find a way to make money on everything. Just because you haven't actually said "I want to eat tortured animals" doesn't mean you haven't made that choice. If you haven't purposefully chosen the alternative, you've made that choice. Food animals are tortured. If you're going to eat animals - do what you can to support more humane treatment. It's the least you can do. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Since no one else did, I'll second this. The public school system as an institution took a horrible turn somewhere down the line. Maybe it's the fault of overcrowding? Maybe it's No Child Left Behind? Maybe it's one fucking month of maternity leave for moms, maybe it's both parents in the workforce too early...Who knows when it happened. But homeschooling looks better and better. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

NO! Of course you can't trust her. That doesn't mean you can't take a chance on her - and give the benefit of the doubt. "Fake it til you make it" as they say. Over time, if the relationship lasts that long, you will build trust. No matter the situation she was in, she didn't handle getting out of it with integrity or honesty. You don't know if she has it in her to handle difficult issues in a productive way. God, it's so easy to look right at someone's history and CHOOSE to ignore it. Somehow we think WE will be different. It drives me crazy because I've done it too. I'm not saying once a cheat always a cheat but if she's cheating now your odds are pretty damn grim. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

As in, let humanity die out? hehe. If you mean quit overpopulating the planet so there is less demand for meat needed to feed the world - do some research. For every pound of meat 'harvested' from a cow, you need to invest 7 pounds of grain. Not a very good return if we're talking about the 'need' for food. It's gluttony - plain and simple. People "just love a good steak." Or "can't live without cheese." Sure, the world's resources are being depleted by crops, too. But when we stop feeding all that grain to farmed animals, we'll have more to eat and will have to rape less of the rainforest. There will always be some price for any type of farming of the land - the key is respect and balance. Where is that? And yeah, holier-than-thou types (whether they are activists, evangelists or just speakers corner blowhards) are always annoying. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Not everyone turns a blind eye to it. Go veg! You are empathetic and compassionate, why put the tortured meat of animals in there! Protein shmotein - you can get it from beans, nuts and grains. Cruelty free! :) Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Unfortunately it's not just animal testing. It's agribusiness (farmed animals) as well. Workers are desensitized to animal suffering when day in and day out they are confronted with "uncooperative" animals (animals that don't want to be penned and slaughtered) and must fill kill quotas. It becomes easy to take out their frustration on the animals. There are SO MANY hidden camera videos of human torture of animals in labs, on farms, etc. Whether you agree with hunting, animal testing or even slaughter for food - I can't see anyone tolerating a worker punching test monkeys in the head or skinning calves alive or cutting off chickens' heads to write on the walls in blood. It's not too graphic for TV - everyone should see it. It happens and until we all take a stand against it - it will continue to happen. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

We're vegan, so the fish thing is a moot point. But you're right - all of those things are toxic, too. I try to minimize exposure to much as I can. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Hi Mike, My ped will do what I want. She agrees that a hepatitis vaccine at birth, and a full load of vaccines by one year (including MMR) is alot for a young, immature body to bear. I am considering vaccinating on a delayed schedule. Regardless of the link of thimerosal to autism, thimerosal scares me. It absolutely is a neurotoxin. Most people believe that mercury is no longer used vaccines and it is not true. Specifically the flu shot. I just can't imagine taking my baby to the doctor for a 'routine' visit and never having the same baby again. Especially when the red flags have been raised. My son just got over a nice fat case of rotavirus. It was bad. But he's over it and less susceptible to future infections. He isn't dead from a bowel obstruction.

"these days" Did you know that a rotavirus vaccine given to newborn infants approved in 2000 was pulled from public use because it caused fatal bowel obstructions? A 'new and improved' one was introduced a couple of years ago. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Herd immunity and predisposed toxic load are two points to consider. Herd immunity goes along with my own beliefs that we must look beyond the self-serving and consider the greater good. However the safety of your own child sure does challenge that, doesn't it?. Also I'd be so much more willing if I knew for certain that drug companies were looking out for the greater good over their own self-serving needs. (I'm not a conspiracy theorist, really, just trying to sort it all out.) And toxic load is SO HARD to understand - not being a physician/scientist/naturopath, etc. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

I similarly know of a family who believes their son was injured by vaccines. He was diagnosed with autism. They assert that is *really was a case of "he was one way before the shot - and completly different after". (I also know of innumerable families who know of no injuries at all to their children.) Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

How many of you have/have not had your children vaccinated? And what is your belief that led you to that choice? (obviously the poll options are incomplete) I'm struggling with this issue and am curious about others' thought processes... Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi