freeflybella

Just out of curiosity, which one is that? Living Waters? The Way of The Master? The Kirk Cameron thingy? Or am I confusing SB with Born Again? Or are they the same? Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

I started to reply to your post but decided Nightingale did a pretty thorough job with hers. I think when breastfeeding becomes the norm, rather than the exception - and once you've seen more than a couple of women doing it, you won't notice anymore. Even weirder? Do you know how many women haven't seen another woman breastfeeding? A lot more than you might think. I know, I know, you're a man - you can't help but sexualize breasts. But at some point you have to exercise control rather than ask women with infants to stay hidden away. After all, infants need to feed every 2-3 hours. That's a major problem if we're expected to a. stay home to feed, b. drop everything and find a private place or c. reduce our 'outings' to not more than an hour or so at a time. I say, go ahead an peek if you must, just try to be discreet about it.

I don't really know what you mean about rallies ??? Or forcing babies to feed ??? I used to try to 'encourage' my baby to eat because damn, after a couple of hours "HOLY CRAP THEY HURT AND PLEASE WAKE UP DON'T YOU WANT LUNCH NOW - HOW ABOUT JUST A LITTLE SNACK? PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE" But I guess that's not what you're talking about? And I agree, courtesy is always appreciated. But I guess as long as there are those out there saying that BFing is disgusting and should be banned - there will always be women taking a stand on the other side. Personally, I'll side with the women taking a stand. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Good correction.

I know you were only kidding here but there IS a bit of truth. Breastfeeding SHOULD be the norm - and bottle feeding should be the exception. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

My baby refused to let me put a blanket over his head. Trust me, your baby will let you know how he likes it too. And you'll do whatever he wants because, as someone else posted - you need him to eat as much as he needs to! I tried to BF in public. God, it would've made my life so much easier! But my son needed lots of room to stretch out and no shirts, blankets, towels, whatever even near his face. I had no desire to make a BFing statement - so I found private places. Although I totally understand and support any woman to BF in anyway she wants to. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

eat up. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Maybe you should research the history of reasons why babies are cirumcised before accusing me of not being informed. Also, the idea that circumcision is done to 'prevent nasty infections throughout life' is ridiculous. I drew a parallel that I probably shouldn't have. I really do recognize the difference in method and result between male and female circumcision. As I stated, I did not mean to downplay the horror. I also didn't mean turn this thread into something other than what was intended. I'll ungracefully bow out so the discussion can return to the original subject. I have strong feelings about circumcision but shouldn't have used this thread to advance a different agenda. I get why it pissed people off. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

This is a weird argument. There are so many facets to discuss. You are right that a sterile surgical procedure is different from an unsterile, unskilled professional procedure. You are right that there are many reasons for cutting into genitalia - whether it is male or female. We are all right that there is no medical need for cutting into genitalia - and that all cutting of male and female genitalia is unnecessary. But just because the practice of removing part of and infant male's penis has become commonplace and accepted as normal, does not make it any less of a mutilation. Yes, the penis still works - but not the full way it was naturally intended to. Only recently has anesthetic become commonplace for the procedure. So most circumcisions occurred on unanesthetized babies. I didn't mean to downplay the excruciating torture that these girls undergo. I do recognize the difference in the method. These girls are mutilated so horribly due to the unskilled 'surgical' attempt. What would it look like if this culture had the means and the money - the procedure would be done at birth, in the hospital, paid for by insurance companies and grow to be considered acceptable. You are also right that there is some f'd up thinking behind female circumcision - there is alot of f'd up thinking around (having sex with virgins cures aids, etc). I think you can chalk alot of it up to ignorance and lack of real information. So what's our excuse for circumcising our babies? We cut them "so they'll get blow jobs" or "because it's easier to clean". Hospitals, anesthetic injections into the penis of a newborn baby, sterile instruments, etc do make it less of a barbaric method. But does it make it less of a barbaric procedure? Not in my opinion. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Uh...it's called circumcision and we do it to boys every single day. It's the exact same thing we do to boys. ETA: As a matter of fact, there's a likely chance it happened to you. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

A-fucking-men !!! (btw, I live in Philly and wouldn't send my son to school here if you paid me to!) ETA: The Gay Month thing has nothing to do with my reasons for avoiding Philly public schools. The fact that they are crappy schools does. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Well said! And not to confuse the issue any futher, but you're right about these animals not being seen as animals (food or otherwise) but as a commodity. In fact, not a single cow, pig or chicken that is raised for food is a naturally occuring animal. They have been bred and cross bred to enhance their various moneymaking attributes. The problem is, they have not had their nervous systems bred out. They are still sentient beings with instincts. They still suffer. But they are not seen as life forms that deserve respect. However they're working on it. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

I know! I loved cheese, too! I used to think if there was a way I could ensure where the cheese came from and who made it - I'd go back to eating it. But I found once I stopped eating it, my asthma went away and my skin cleared up. Who knew?

There are so many facets to this issue. Health for humans, health for animals, living and dying conditions for animals, transport for animals, impact on the environment in general, impact on the environment at a local level... There isn't a single check in the 'pro' box aside from money. And that money isn't going to Farmer Brown. It's going to Chairmen and CEOs. Reduce the demand for meat overall but increase the demand for locally and humanely raised products and the farmers make the money. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

I'm not sure where your info comes from regarding the use of synthetic pesticides in organic production but I'd love for you to elaborate. The fact is, organic is better for you. Nothing is perfect - there will always be potential hazards. But if (again as I mentioned earlier) you add up the toxic load over a lifetime, choosing organic vegetables and meat is much, much better than conventionally grown. Especially for children. And choosing an organic vegan diet is even better! Aside from the health issues and getting back to the point of this thread, animal torture happens in the name of greed and mass food production to supply our families with funky meat, milk and eggs. Opt out and save yourself and a few million animals in the process. (

I addressed this in an earlier post here. And this, too. When they are sick is MUCH different than over the course of the animal's lifetime. Doesn't surprise me at all. I do know that most conventionally grown food is genetically modified. That's why I choose organic whenever possible and abstain totally from animal products. But I would agree that it probably would surprise most people - which why I talk about it. Which is why I'm glad the OP started this thread. And why I hope people really will take an interest. Sure. That's what I advocate. Figure out for yourself what you're able to live with and what you're willing to condone by direct or indirect action. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Added to Bill's reply: Organically raised also means they are not being fed pesticides. And absolutely those are unhealthy for you to ingest. Additionally, they are not genetically modified, given growth hormone or being fed genetically modified food, food that contains remnants of other animals (that can sicken the meat) etc. So, I'd say that is enough anecdotal proof that organic is healthier. Finally, and I could be wrong here, but I think that people who choose to be mindful of something as easily ignored as their food sources, probably are mindful of their overall health in general. While this doesn't prove eating organic directly makes you healthier - I'd say that adopting a mindset of education instead of blind trust when it comes to your food supply will absolutely result in a healthier you. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Please do the research. Please don't just peruse this thread for your info on what factory farming is like. This isn't totally directed at you Royd but everyone. Yeah, internet debate means taking hard lines and posting as if you're an expert. I'm no expert. I suspect none of you are either. We're just raising the issue because it's a cause we've done research into and care about. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

No. This thread was started on the topic of farm animals. Specifically turkeys. Check out post number one. You've made your position pretty clear. Cool. Looks like you won't be joining any protest marches. I wouldn't expect everyone to just give in and give up meat. But you have a spare moment or two, I second the recommendation by Micro. Dominion is an enlightening read. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

What micro said... (without the "eating them" part) If you would get enraged over someone kicking your dog or stealing him and using him in animal experiments - then you know where I am coming from. It seems to be common that it's ok if happens to millions of animals, just not ok if it happens to MY animal. The end does not justify the means. In almost every instance this is true for me. For me it's the WAY we acheive our goals that shows our true character/morals/integrity, etc. Who cares if you're rich and are a soulless prick? Who cares if you're 'happy' but left people heartbroken and struggling in your wake? Anyway, my dad was an army colonel - I've been called hippie, pinko, commie...you name it. He called our cat "Buttlicker" when I was a kid. But every morning after he left for work, that cat smelled like his aftershave.

christ...what do you say to that? I guess, if I were faced with human suffering and tragedy on a daily basis it might piss me off to come across a thread about animal rights. There are so many ways to make this world a better place, thanks for your contribution. Sincerely. It's not much, but I'm trying to do my part, too. Yeah, I guess I am a fuckin' hippie. Action expresses priority. - Mahatma Ghandi

I used to take antibiotics for things (bladder infections, etc) that I now proactively prevent. I made the decision to forgo all pharmaceuticals unless absolutely necessary. No cold meds. No headache painkillers, etc. When I stopped eating dairy and all of my allergies disappeared including asthma. I got a cold from my little boy this year - neither of us took meds and both were fine within a week - but nothing for ages before that. Also, got preggers, got huge, popped a baby out and got small again without an issue. No swollen ankles, no nausea, no diabetes. No babyweight. I attribute that to diet as well.