Ron

It is basic canopy flight physics: The higher performance canopies react faster to inputs. So the input on a lower performance canopy will have a bigger result. (Understand that I am using low and high performance as general terms. The Navigator is a high performance student canopy. And high and low performance is subjective to the pilot. I'd personally find a Sabre 2 as 'low' performance but that does not mean anything but to me). I'll give you an example.... I own a Citabria and am Renting a Pitts Special while I look for one to buy. If I am coming in to land and I yank back on the Citabria's stick.... Not great, but it will mush a bit, maybe pop up. At this level of MY EXPERIENCE in the plane it is not a big deal and I can still land the plane. If I did the same exact action in the Pitts.... Aw crap. It is going to jump up into the air, airspeed is going to drop like crazy and there is a really good chance I might stall it. I'd better go around. Now take a guy with hundreds of hours in a Pitts and he could do the EXACT same thing and still land with no issue. My experience - Its a big deal His experience - Eh, a non-event. The only way for me to get from where I am to where he is, is by doing it a bunch. They decide to change canopies when they want something that what they have now is not doing what they want. I bought the Citabria to learn to fly a tail wheel airplane. I went to my first competition in it and everyone else in my class had a Pitts. So if I want to be competitive, I will need more plane. so when you want something else, that is when you change. Between the PD and the Sabre 2? The Navigator would be a good step between the two IMO. I was actually pretty impressed by the Navigator (The school I worked at let me jump one so I would know what the students were flying). Other options: A Silhouette. the Sabre 2 is semi elliptical, the Silhouette is "lightly tapered". The more elliptical a canopy is the faster it will react to toggle input. The Pulse might be a good choice. I don't think I have flown one. But it is a "lightly elliptical". It also is a hybrid made of f111 and ZP fabrics. It should be easier to pack. Maybe you should look at 7 cell designs. The Spectre and Storm are both 7 cell and normally these are not as fast turning and not as high performance as traditional 9 cells. In the end, the only person who can pick a canopy for you.... Is you. Anyone can give you guidance, but it is your butt in the seat and we can't fly it for you. When you are ready to get something else.... When you are unhappy with your current wing for some reason (to include just wanting something else), or you want to be able to do something you can't with the wing you have.... That is when you change. If you are happy with what you have, there is no reason to change. Someone did mention this, but I'll mention it again. F111 canopies do not last as long as ZP. The performance starts to drop on the first jump and keeps dropping for a while. I have jumped the same size and style F111 back to back at zero jumps on a new one and at 500 jumps on an old one and I could tell the difference. Summation (IMO): You can jump what you have now for a VERY long time. The time to change is when you want to change. Only you can decide what you like. We will guide you as much as we can. I'd suggest trying the canopies listed above at the same WL as you are at now and see what TYPE of canopy you like. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Well, your assessment of why YOU didn't like it is valid. End cells not opening is not a big deal. You can fly that thing all the way to the fare and it will not be a big deal. Yes, WL can play a part. The Sabre 2 is a "better" wing. Which means it will generate more lift at a given airspeed. You were trying to fly the Sabre like you were flying a student canopy. That would be like trying to land an F16 like a Cessna 150. Different canopies need different techniques. Sure, the basic concept is the same but the high performance wings need higher performance thinking. With a student canopy, we expect the pilot to flare pretty quickly and the canopy needs to not react badly to that. A true sport canopy will have a more powerful flare, but that means the flay has to be dynamic where you temper the rate of the flare to your distance and speed across the ground. Yep, but recognize that you can learn another process. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

In a word... No. The longer version is it might slow down a progression to smaller canopies, but you have said you are not that interested in that and personally I think people should slow down the downsizing progression anyway. I had 300 jumps on really lightly loaded F111 canopies. I have still managed to jump canopies from 69sqft to 300sqft AND not been broken in the process. So, as long as you are happy, you will be fine. And I think when it comes time to downsize (which honestly NEVER has to happen) then you will be better for the time spent on this wing. The only downside is dealing with winds. With a light WL, you will have to stand down sooner than with a higher WL. That honestly is the only "downside" I can think of. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Wow... That's a good one. For the record, I'd rather be dumped out that tricked into jumping a round. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Which long held traditions are those? I see few if ANY 'traditions' held over from when I started... The training is different, the gear is more advanced, the aircraft are bigger & the skies more crowded, the people most certainly have different motivations & goals. The tradition use to be help the new guy out and don't worry about the $$$... I really don't see much of anything today regarding traditional camrodary. It's a different sport & different considerations are everywhere...as it should be. I can think of several traditions that still exist. Flash Boobs get extra altitude. Pied at 100 jumps Beer rules Hit and chug I could go on and on. If these traditions no longer exist at your DZ... Then I am sorry for you. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Since not everyone agrees with you... The answer is not *simple*. Like I said before, if you think the person has thin skin and will get their panties in a wad, or you are not SURE they will laugh it off. Best to leave them alone. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Your opinion. Lots of people have done this an no one got their panties in a wad. Like I said, know your audience. It is clear no one should ever think about doing it to you. I have had it done to me.... I laughed about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It does not change the physics of the event, only the reason. Folks, I never said it was a GOOD idea. I said "Know your audience." Some people will laugh it off, others will want your head on a pike..... You had BETTER know the difference or not even think about it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

4,000 jumps on a 1.8+ loaded Stiletto makes me a pretty good resource on what a 1.8+ loaded Stiletto will do in pretty much all phases of flight. And when they do that, they need to make other plans for the landing. From your own source: "Both canopies have been frequently flown at wing loadings over 2.0 lbs per square foot for thousands of jumps at sea level, including straight in landings in no wind. We do not recommend such extreme loading and actually feel such extremes may compromise both safety and performance" CAN it be done? Yes, is it a good idea? NOPE. In fact PD does not recomend the Stiletto over 1.7 http://www.performancedesigns.com/stiletto.asp I have landed an FX 88 straight in, and it works great, landing a Stiletto at that same WL without speed would be a bad idea. I have a few jumps on the Stiletto 89, and I don't think I would have tried it. I never landed the FX69 straight in, but I *think* it could have been done safely. But it was so easy to keep in a dive it was never an issue. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

By really knowing the person. As for being dumped out being dangerous..... Uh, as an AFFI I have dumped out more people than I can recall. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Both more than once "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It wasn't funny then, either. I found it funny.... Like I said, you have to know your audience. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Even then it's sometimes not a great idea...I grabbed and spun the heck out of my buddy Walt Appel following an 8 way once - 'dragged' him all the way down to 2500' - his eyes were pretty big for for a B.A.S.E. jumper. Then I respectfully submit that you didn't know your audience. If you had drug me "down" to 2500'.... I'd have still taken a delay. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

You have to know your audience. You have to know the limits. I am not a big fan of practical jokes... I find them a bit childish. Then again acting like a child every once in a while can be fun. An example. Airpseed had this little trick they would play on each other about putting stickers on a teammates visor. It started on the ground, but escalated from there to on the plane and actually doing it on exit. Now, I find this funny as hell. They found it funny as hell. But I would not suggest people do this to someone who is not uber experienced and that has a great sense of humor. Know your audience, know the limits. Less tolerant. Dumping people out used to be done on many "big" jumps. For your 1,000th you pretty much knew it was coming. I was dumped out for my 100th, 500th and they tried to dump me out for my 2,000th, but I dumped out the camera gun.... Yeah, that just happened. BAD idea, and I'd kick you off the DZ. We are talking 40K plus dollars and a guys ticket. I had a buddy that died because of an accidental shutting off of the fuel and he handled it badly. Funny as long as they are competant to land off safely and the area you give them is fine. If you are not 100% sure, then don't. Know their limitations. Love it. Hilarious as hell. If the person is the type to get butt hurt about it, don't.... We did this to a guy on his 500th jump. And then he thought he would get us and made us do the jump again so he could swoop it.... Well, the floaters stayed on the plane and he ran right past.... Hilarious. The look on his face as I waved as he went past was awesome. In both cases we swooped down to him and did the jump. He didn't think it was funny the second time till he realized we liked him enough to mess with him. Again, know your audience. Know your audience. It is both. It SHOULD be a non-issue. Landing off should be trainied IMO. But the fact is that some people can't handle it and kill themselves every year. Again (wanna say it with me?) KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE. Lots of exp with this one. Litterally killed a buddy of mine. He grabbed a low timer and flipped him, but the lowtimer grbbed his cutaway. Long story short, no AAD, RSL, or reserve pull. I still don't think it is a 'sin', but I know lots of folks that think it is death on a stick. KNOW YOUR AUDIENCE. If you did this to me once or twice with enough altitude to be safe.... I'd find it funny. I might get you back later. But again, you had better know the guy is not going to get butt hurt about it. The only one you listed that would really upset me is the keys or fuel of the plane. But again, know the limits and know your audience. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1. Then maybe that should of been a hint it is not a great idea. 2. You have to know your audience. If you did it to me.... I'd most likely laugh and make you think I was going to give you payback..... For YEARS. Maybe I'd get payback, maybe I would never. But on every jump you would think this was the one. I don't find this particular joke funny, or over the line. But then again, I have been jumping 20 years and this was more common years ago.... More of a "Black Death" culture than today. I am not going to go into which is better.... But it is different. In the end, you did something that pissed off your buddy. You now have to live with the fall out. Is he being unreasonable? That is clearly up to him and only him and nothing I say will change his feelings. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

1. I was unhappy with the flare of the pilot at any wingloading. 2. Any conventional canopy at that WL is not going to be great. My Stiletto at 1.8 needs speed or high winds to get a good landing. So I have to double front, or hook, or thud in and prepare to PLF. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Until the recent CYPRES issues, I never checked my AAD was on after I started the day. So if a guy set his AAD in the AM and a guy changed it without him knowing..... And he was like me and "Sets it and forgets it". Then he would not catch it. ***For all that 'multi mode' seems like an inventory management feature And it *should* reduce the cost if they only have to make one model, not cost more. I know where you are coming from on the 'set and forget', but the exact same argument could be used for someone else putting in an offset (any modern AAD) or turning it off. I completely agree on the cost issue. The offset is a good point. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Until the recent CYPRES issues, I never checked my AAD was on after I started the day. So if a guy set his AAD in the AM and a guy changed it without him knowing..... And he was like me and "Sets it and forgets it". Then he would not catch it. And it *should* reduce the cost if they only have to make one model, not cost more. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Can't really see this as a game changer. I see it more as a liability that a feature for most people. I have had an AAD for 16 years now and not once have I wished I could set it for anything other that expert/pro (whatever). I do however know people that have had a multi mode AAD set on Tandem and get a fire when they deployed on a regular jump. The best guess is that someone showed the 'feature' to someone else using his rig and forgot to turn it back to Pro/expert (whatever). "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

They are still out there.... I know someone with two sitting on a shelf. Nothing. And I never said anything about that being bad. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

is there something wrong with the year 97 only? mine is a 95. was that year ok? i know its slightly off topic but could you elaborate on your comment? http://www.precision.aero/SB/sb1221faq.htm "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

If all of this is true... I'd find another DZ. PM sent "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

Huh, we used to just go there for ice cream.... Is Holliday House still open? Do they now also suck? What about Emmy's? "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

The Safire 1 is smaller, but not for the reason you gave. Precision was making the Safire here in the US. They were measuring differently than the PD standard.... By a factor of about 8%. So when you have a Safire 1 150 (yes actually called a 149) it is actually about 135 sqft. This only affected the Safire 1's and Omega's. So a Safire 1 149 is actually about 135 sqft. A Safire 2 is measured the same as PD so a Safire 2 149 and a Stiletto 150 are roughly the same size. But a guy that does not know any better might think that a Safire 1 149 is the same size.... But it is not. So a guy that is 210 out the door wants to downsize. He has been jumping a Sabre 2 170 for a bit and is not "stupid on a stick" with it. So he asks you if you think he could downsize to a Safire 1 149. You think he might be ok so you say he is G2G. Except you didn't know that instead of being on a 150 sized canopy at a 1.4WL he is now really under a 135 at a 1.55WL. You didn't know this yesterday, but you know it now. So TIME did work. (actually education worked, but it took TIME for you to get this lesson). True, but jumps by themselves mean nothing as well. As proved by the example above... You may have a bunch of jumps, but you didn't know about the Safire 1 size difference. Well, you will meet the MINIMUM qualifications. To find out if you are 'ready' would require more than just a resume typed out on an internet forum. No, they prove MY point. You didn't know about the Safire 1 size issue... Yet you do now. Yet you are still not three years in the sport. So when your three year mark hits... Guess what? Yep, you now know something you didn't know at the three year mark that you didn't at the two year mark. Using my theoretical 3 years to get an AFFI, you are now prepared for the Safire 1 question when you were not ready at two years. And as an AFFI, people will ask you these types of questions. You are ignoring a simple fact..... Yesterday you had no clue about the Safire 1 size difference. You didn't know what a NOVA was. I'll venture that you didn't know about the 1997 -M reserve issue. I think that you have been around long enough to know about the Argus issue. But now less than 24 hours later you know about the NOVA, you know about the Safire 1 size issue, you know about the -M reserve issue, and you know about the Argus. What gave you that info? I'd bet you didn't make a SINGLE jump last night. What gave you that info was a discussion with someone with more experience than you. I don't know who you are and I have never jumped with you, but I HAVE taught you things just by talking with you. TIME has given you the ability to learn. And no amount of jumps would have given you that lesson. You claim to admit that I know more than you.... Then why do you doubt that I know more than you about this topic? And I never said it was an end all be all.... I have said that on average people who have more time know more. Nothing. It is well within any statistical deviation. The guy with 1000 military jumps sure as hell knows more about military static line jumps than you. BTW you should know I wrote an article in skydiving Magazine years ago titled, "Learning to Jump the Army way" (Issue #231: October 2000). Already did... In the first post I made: "Maybe, but on average the guy that has been around 10 years knows more than the guy that has been around a year......It is not about what you think, it is about what the majority thinks." You keep getting stuck on three years like it is magic. But the fact is that YOU don't yet have three years and you didn't know all of this yesterday and now you do know this.... So if we ignore averages and use anecdotal evidence. Three years DID work for this knowledge. It is not about 3 years, it is not about these specific questions... It is about a GENERAL knowledge that can ONLY be gained through experience and that experience normally requires TIME and how the general feeling is at about three years the *average* person has a GENERAL grasp. Well, I was young and dumb... Not sure I would call 41 'old' however. Oh how I wish you could see this conversation from my point of view.... How when I was one year and 300 jumps in how I thought like you. Then from today where I realize that I still don't know all I should know..... I guess the blessings of 'old' age. But I have had this very discussion more times than I can count.... the new guy thinks the standards put in front of him should not apply to him... Hell, I was that guy. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

It plays a part. They ALL play parts. Some think the time in sport is stupid. It is like a three legged stool. You can't just have one or two legs, you have to have all three. Education/Experience/Skill Because they are still out there. I used it an example because I had a young hotshot that was all excited that he got a great deal on a used canopy. And this was not 20 years ago. No amount of jumps will let you know it had issues. But TIME will. You just proved my point. A guy that has been around 20 years knows about the NOVA... It does not matter than he might only have 500 jumps. His time in sport has given him knowledge that can only be gained by education (something that those who do not know about the NOVA just got) or experience (something that only time can give you. And guess what.... TIME has given you the opportunity to get/give EDUCATION on the NOVA. Another example is the size question on the Safire 1 or Stiletto. Both of these canopies are still out there as well. Or maybe how would you like to buy a NIB Argus? Or maybe I have a 1997 Raven -M reserve I'll sell you cheap... Interested? No amount of jumps will tell you the history of an Argus, NOVA, or -M (or a whole bunch of other gear issues). Only experience or education will give you the knowledge. No, but knowing about the Collins Lanyard might be something a TI should know. In the case of the NOVA story, the guy didn't ask me about it till *after* he had struck a deal. He was excited about it and was telling me like a guy tells his buddies when he buys a new car. The only good news is he had not given the seller any money yet, so the transaction was easy to cancel. That at some point you will know enough to perform a task... And that since you don't know what you don't know YOU are not the best person to decide when that time comes. Pretty simple concept. Again, the three legged stool. What would not work is the guy that went through BASIC and *Thought* he had spent enough time kicking in doors in training to be up to the task. If you had the option of the guy that has been kicking in doors for 10 years VS. the guy just out of BASIC.... Which would you pick? YES, the true educated operator will be better than both, but that is not what we are dealing with here. Again three legs, not just the choice between two. And how many new riders would have just done nothing and slammed into the car? I know a guy that did JUST that.... In a parking lot. I think actually in the Sunpath parking lot if I recall correctly. And you seem to be overestimating an individuals ability to self evaluate their own skills. Have you been through a TI course? Do you know if there are pre-requisets to taking the class? Do you know if there are ground school portions? Have you been through an AFFEval course? Same questions. Do you know about proficiency cards? Here it is a nut shell: 1. Experience matters. That can be jumps, time in sport, or formal education. Best option is all three. Relying on only one will not work. No amount of raw jumps will teach you if an Argus with a 1997-M is a good combination. Education might, but I can't think of a single person who teaches a "Gear you should avoid class". Anyone that has been jumping for 20 years knows the NOVA is a bad idea. 2. An individual is not a good judge of their own skills. 3. Standards exist for a reason. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334