piisfish 135 #151 November 14, 2011 well maybe there was someone with bad vibes over there and them bad vibes screwd up the GPS 's as much as I love all you guys, I don't think that Scott deserves any of the napalming. He wasn't there, he is not in charge of China Lake (AFAIK) etc etc. Plus you know already in advance the way he is going to answer... Love love love. scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie95 3 #152 November 14, 2011 For a minute there I thought this thread was going to be a shining example of the users of this forum putting past differences aside to work together to solve a problem. Alas, no, that is obviously not what people want.BASEstore.it Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #153 November 14, 2011 what we want is tough love and ponies scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #154 November 14, 2011 Quote what we want is tough love and ponies Don't forget about the stroopwafels.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #155 November 14, 2011 "Guys... Please... No pissing contests... Let's try and keep this constructive... " What Tom said. Instead of the bickering, how bout we slam our skulls together until we think of a way to make sure this doesn't happen again or drive up the local price of Flintstones Chewable Morphine? Whichever comes first. Thoughts: I still don't know what would be considered a "fair" score instead of a zero for a corrupted run. I made 7 runs that day and only got results for the last 3. I was ok with that myself even though it sucked... Yeah the devices were provided by the event but I don't see any way to guarantee they work, and this time they didn't. I think its fairly obvious this wasn't an error of procedure or misuse of the devices. Not when the effect took out pretty much -all- the devices at once. Everyone had their own way of handling em... helmet mount, wing mount wrist mount whatever, and everyone booted em up at their own time...(sometime before lift and sometime around 8-9 grand, but its not like we synched up and turned them all on at the same moment or anything... each one experienced slightly different operating conditions, but it didn't seem to matter at first when, where or for how long they were booted up. With that many people using that many devices whose usability and handling characteristics are that well established you'd think at least a few people would have got it right. Questions: Was anyone using a flysight a couple days after? I took off late Sunday cause the weather sucked. Monday, tuesday, anyone report anything? Are flysights now working normally at Elsinore? Could I show up right now get in the plane do my thing and get a track? I'm not sure I'd buy electrical or radio noise from the plane itself... if the local oscillator in some piece of gear or something in the plane was causing it, you'd think people would have been noticing before now that their flysights don't work at Elsinore or out of that particular plane. (Planes...? It happened in both planes. Anybody ask the pilots if they were doing anything different that day, electrically? Seems VERY doubtful) Also seems very unlikely it'd spontaneously clear up on its own, as it seemed to do that day. If the plane was causing it, I'd think it'd be binary as all hell, on or off, everything corrupted or nothing. Anyway I have a hard time believing electrical or radio noise from the plane was able to keep some people's devices down until the skydive was over. Worst-case, device booted only in the plane and assuming the plane was responsible we should have seen a rash of records all missing the first 5-30 seconds of the flight but consistent acquisition by all devices within 60 seconds of exit at the latest. Instead we got wild corrupted data all through it. The kind of thing I'd expect from having some high powered microwave equipment operating in the vicinity. Again to me this says Military, maybe something the military didn't bother to announce, maybe related to the China Lake thing, maybe not. Thought: Auroras have been reported MUCH further south than usual lately. Been in the news once or twice I've noticed. Sunspot cycle I think. Could we be looking at direct solar interference? This stuff is known to create a lot of wacky electrical effects. Thought: The government and military have rather a lot of stuff going on within a few hundred miles of that location. They announced activity they knew might cause disruption. Perhaps they also had other activity they did -not- announce that could also cause disruption. Thought: at least in future comps, now that we know this effect is possible, we can look for it... start the day by having one jumper fly like a bag of 5 of the things on Load 1? Or distribute them all over that one jumper... I don't know if 2 flysights right next to each other or a bunch of em in a bag will interfere, but I know that two in one wing separated by maybe a foot or so worked ok for me later in the day. Point is we can test for this. Thought: The comp in Gransee in August, so far as I know there WERE no zeroes or corrupted runs. None. I didn't look for any but I also did not hear of any... and it was a small comp. I'd think if anyone got unusable results I'd have heard about it. And I know some people were forgetting to turn them on far in advance, some people sometimes forgot to ground-boot before boarding yet the devices had no problem just doing a cold start in the plane. The -lack- of major failure there tells me its even MORE unlikely the problem was caused by anything the competitors were doing or not doing or how the devices were being used. Normally people can get away with casual handling of the devices, they seem to be fairly tolerant of "just turn it on and jump" handling so why not this time? Personally I -am- content to write this whole thing up as a very solid case of Unknown External Interference and let it go at that until and unless we get more data. -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #156 November 14, 2011 Quote well maybe there was someone with bad vibes over there and them bad vibes screwd up the GPS 's Nice try! I left Saturday morning. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #157 November 14, 2011 Quote Wow, I offer to help and ask for a little claification of what transpired and that's the response you give me. I don't have time to play games on the internet, if you want an explanation give me a call, you have my phone number. Scott, Isn't everyone here deserving of an explanation? It may have been my event with Jarno, but...the UAV group at March, pilots, SOCOM, Marine Corps Communications specialist, NOTAMs, no one can provide a real explanation, so please...for the benefit of everyone in the community, please explain it if you believe you have a plausible explanation. We had 34 units brought in and a total of 38 units on site. Not one of them were consistent with data regardless of whether it was turned on in the plane, before loading, or turned on at 5k held against the window. It didn't matter if it was on the back of a head, in a wing, on an ankle, in a chest bag, or on a wrist. We had lots of ideas for potential causes, but consistent failures in inconsistent mountings shot down most of those ideas. Some people jumped with two units towards the end of the day. Please share the answer. Otherwise it's just yet another game of "'nanner, nanner, I know something you don't know." I do want to find the problem so it doesn't occur again for anyone, anywhere. We're installing repeaters in the aircraft to test those as well, yet given that testing for two weeks before the comp, and "testing" for four days after the comp showed Flysights all working as expected. --I don't have your phone number either, or I'd give it to Tom so he could call you. In case you've lost my card; 435-840-0300. Phone is on silent as I work on this book, but I'll return your call ASAP. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skwrl 56 #158 November 14, 2011 Obvious answer is obvious.Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #159 November 14, 2011 Quote I'm not sure I'd buy electrical or radio noise from the plane itself... if the local oscillator in some piece of gear or something in the plane was causing it, you'd think people would have been noticing before now that their flysights don't work at Elsinore or out of that particular plane. Brian, It isn't the plane or the place, it's the frequency the NAVCOM is tuned to and the brand of NAVCOM (King does it on different frequencies than NARCO. Without knowing what frequency ATC assigned that day you can't rule out interference from the radio. It is well documented in general aviation. Doesn't happen with panel mounted GPSs because they have external antennas and shielded cabling. Fact is, it apparently happened to a bunch of different GPS units when in the plane on a day when no jamming tests were done and there were no RAIM problems. What is the common factor? support.garmin.com/support/searchSupport/case.faces?caseId={af21efa0-5043-11dc-4ec8-000000000000} for more information. In addition to the frequencies listed, I know that the NARCO 12D in my plane jams my AERA560 portable GPS when tuned to 119.275, so the frequencies in the list are not exhaustive.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lurch 0 #160 November 16, 2011 Ok thanks, Doc. I'll be the first to admit I am not much of a radio guy. I've got a lot of experience tracking down EM interference with industrial robotics, but that tends to be fairly straightforward stuff, mostly things like arcing contactors or large inductive surges from heavy hydraulics causing servo miscounts, that sort of thing. Aviation radio and the finer physics of radio in general I know nothing of. I'd still like to hear Scott Campos's explanation, but I'm guessing if he hasn't just up and posted it already he ain't gonna. -BLive and learn... or die, and teach by example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Migs 0 #161 January 6, 2012 Folks... after working for DoD for 12 years, they will never tell you exactly when things will happen and/or take place. It's the nature of the beast. I have been around similar testing or jamming and trust me... it will take the strongest signal down. GPS signal is much weaker and it doesn't take much to take the signal down. Shit happens... I don't know about you, but I had a blast doing it!!! That's my story and I am sticking to it.~Migs~ On Facebook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
