Incident at MOAB

[QuietStorm 0]

EXCELLENT! This is good stuff, haven't seen it in a while!

Matt you did well; you kept a very cool head, processed well under pressure, and came up with the right decisions with the ground coming up and time running out.

We have:

1. Detailed first hand account of the experience and decision making process in the incident.

2. Detailed eye witness account with video account of the experience from wingsuit in flight point of view.

3. A PICTURE of the "after effect"; WOW!

4. Excellent "technical" discussions and contributions of causal factors, what, how, and what to do by many ranging from 6 years experience to 25 years plus in skydiving.

5. Excellent documentation that the experienced wingsuit community can show to skydivers who want to get into wingsuiting for training purposes and to emphasize that lots of jump experience AND a cool head under pressure are necessary before a newbie gets any where near a wingsuit.

Charley; its great that you hung in there with video with the thought that your friend was "going in". Unlike bellyflyers....a wingsuiter just can't swoop in and "save somebody"; when it goes bad in a wingsuit you have to save yourself.....nobody can do it for you.

Charley; I have a few questions about what was processing in your mind and your decision matrix. Perhaps as a group we are missing something or another learning point.......beyond the "technical."

Matt spends 28 seconds from time 00:54 till time 1:22 in a viscous and nasty flat spin and deploys at approx 6,000 to 5,000 FT AGL with freebag release and reserve canopy inflation at time 1:28. You are worried that your friend is going in, is in a bad situation, and your running film; I salute you for processing a lot emotionally and to keep flying.

From time 1:28 at Charley's reserve inflation at approximately 6,000 AGL to 5,000 AGL you fly onward toward the DZ under wingsuit for 22 seconds and deploy your main at time 1:50

Given the nasty flat spin on the back, Charley's physical condition was unknown, possible unfamiliar dropzone and rough desert terrain. By observing Charley's reserve deployment mean in your head that he was 100% OK?

In your decision matrix did you consider deploying your main once you saw Matt's reserve inflate and flying over to check if all was well?

I don't mean to be critical; I was not in your shoes, I was not in your mind. I'm just curious if these thoughts crossed your mind given the adrenaline that has flowing.

Everbody walked away; great job to all!

[hjumper33 0]

Quite honestly im not really sure why I kept on flying. I think I was kind of in shock and glad I saw a parachute come out, then realized I didnt know where I was on a DZ that I had never jumped at before and with no ability to communicate with anyone if I landed next to a hurt jumper in the middle of the desert. Once I realized that we were still pretty high, I thought I could get back down to get help well before matt landed with my fairly small canopy and his fairly large reserve. Once i landed and saw the reserve was heading back to the dz, and still quite high in the air, i was pretty sure hed be ok. My crew skills arent that good, and I dont think I could have caught up to his canopy if he was unconcious, so not all that sure what I would have done if I had pulled higher, but its a fair question. I did think about going and trying to knock him out of a the spin by trying to get above him and cannonball down if he went obviously unconscious because I knew he didnt have a cypress, but then again, neither do I. We joked that if the reserve pilot chute remained in tow, the really cool save would have been to fly by him and snatch it on the way through. I believe in later discussions that would have automatically allowed me to take my pick of any woman on the dz. Anyway, thank goodness it didnt come to any of that.

[DSE 3]

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, then realized I didnt know where I was on a DZ that I had never jumped at before and with no ability to communicate with anyone if I landed next to a hurt jumper in the middle of the desert..

No cell phone? Moab is one place I wouldn't want to land off without one.

[repcool 2]

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, then realized I didnt know where I was on a DZ that I had never jumped at before and with no ability to communicate with anyone if I landed next to a hurt jumper in the middle of the desert..

No cell phone? Moab is one place I wouldn't want to land off without one.

Interesting issue that, my cell phone rarely worked around Moab and it crossed my mind more than once to put my SPOT beacon in my suit.

[DSE 3]

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, then realized I didnt know where I was on a DZ that I had never jumped at before and with no ability to communicate with anyone if I landed next to a hurt jumper in the middle of the desert..

No cell phone? Moab is one place I wouldn't want to land off without one.

Interesting issue that, my cell phone rarely worked around Moab and it crossed my mind more than once to put my SPOT beacon in my suit.

True, iCocks don't have great coverage the but most carriers besides at&t do have gOod coverage. I ended up using my BB as a modem at the campground cut the wireless is so bad. There is a cell tower just above/south of the airport I had great coverage there. I'm a wuss; I always carry a cell on jumps.

[mccordia 73]

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I did think about going and trying to knock him out of a the spin by trying to get above him and cannonball down if he went obviously unconscious because I knew he didnt have a cypress, but then again, neither do I.

I hope you also think about this one when you jump with others.
If you expect them to try a similar 'save' (or even if you dont want to, could have a friend do/try that anyways) when you are the one spinning around out of controll or unconcious.

Would you want them to risk their life, to try and save yours because you are above that silly safety device most responsible jumpers have and use?

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We joked that if the reserve pilot chute remained in tow, the really cool save would have been to fly by him and snatch it on the way through

Yea..would make two bodies much easier to be found, if they are wrapped and tied together by a reserve bridle

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[hjumper33 0]

Im not so sure it would have fired in the first place. I had to pop up to stay with matt because he became so floaty in the spin. What I do for others and what I expect them to do for me a two very different things. My student loans were going to pay for a cypress or a V3, and considering I dont skydive a ton anymore, the choice was pretty easy. 6 more months until I get the MD behind my name, so maybe then ill be able to afford one of them fancified auto reserve shooters. Until then, people may choose to jump with me/not jump with me/ save me from certain death as they see fit.

[mccordia 73]

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Im not so sure it would have fired in the first place.

Cypres fires at speeds above 78 mph, and up untill now, even the flattest of spins never seem to clock anything under a 100 mph. Slower than normal freefall.

But maybe one of you two had some form of logging device on you that jump. Would be interesting to see for sure..
As most info on freefall speeds during (flat) spins seems to pre-date current day wingsuit design in terms of surface area..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[LouDiamond 1]

Based on the video footage, it was determined that the flat spin that killed Chris Martin ,that had he had a AAD, it would not have fired. Granted it was a 21 sq ft canopy , it is not hard to see how some of the suits and the size of the jumper could easily display similar characteristics. As it is, a person in a wingsuit flat spin will actually generate a good deal of lift that actually reduces the vertical decent rate. This can be seen in several of the flat spins with outside video that are out there.

While the incidence and or chance of this happening might be low, I do not think it to be impossible that an AAD might not fire. Especially once the jumper goes unconscious, as the spin tends to increase in speed, as was the case and my observations in Chris's case.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[brianfry713 0]

Charley had a Cypres, but it turned into a paperweight once it was 12 years and 3 months old and his awesome rigger removed it. Buy another one and I'll pack it in there for you if you want.

I don't know where Matt got his data from, but I think he told me at the boogie that he estimated 90 mph descent rate in the flat spin. He probably didn't have much forward speed so that might have made it hard to stay up with him.

If people are worried about their AAD not firing while wingsuiting then jump a student AAD. Just make sure you pull high enough, jump big boring canopies, fly them very timidly, don't swoop, and don't ride the plane down with it switched on.

It's nice to follow down a fellow jumper who has a reserve ride if you can. It's also nice to follow his main or expensive freebag if you don't mind landing out. I don't normally jump with a cellphone unless there's a good chance I'm landing out, but there's been a few times that I wish I had one.

[punchur 0]

Greetings,

I've read this entire thread twice now and have not seen mention of something I learned from my own experience......and it needs to be mentioned IMHO......

I had several hundred flights on multiple suits and had been in a few spins I had no problem getting out of. A few years ago I was flying an Acro, which was on of the EASIEST suits I ever fly yet wound up in a flat spin while doing a solo jump practicing some acrobatics (flailing...lol!) that lasted 5-6000 feet. I made 2 attempts at balling up and flipping/flying out of it.....with the spin only increasing in intensity. The 3rd time I had problems even balling up.....the g-forces were overwhelming. I was barely able to grab my legs and pull my knees to my chest....and DISTINCTLY remember seeing the leg wing still inflated due to the back vents. I CROSSED MY FEET/ANKLES to collapse the inflation my hips and legs weren't strong enough to collapse.....and it worked....the spin slowed. I was probably momentarily unsymmetrical as I had to straighten/twist my legs to even get my feet overlapped to lock them together, but at that point it didn't matter! It was my 3rd try and I was below 4 grand......

My point? CROSSING MY ANKLES and physically pulling my legs to my chest with my hands/arms is now part of MY emergency procedures to stop a flat spin......your milage may vary.

There. I've said it. As much as I hate posting on forums, I hope my own personal experience and resulting knowledge I gained helps another person someday......

Be well.

Do you know where your tools are?

[QuietStorm 0]

No worries; no intention to "poke". Yeah, anyone would be in shock and its one heck of an adrenaline hit in UNFAMILIAR surroundings; a new DZ at a boogie. Its a lot to process in nanosecond of time. You did good. Your video contribution is PRICELESS for training!

Personally I have found myself "pulling high" when my wingman Sean chopped his Spinetto; so I marked a point where his main landed; freebag not recovered.

I pulled high and followed my wingman Nuclear Nick when he managed to have two out, slightly entangled putting him into a nasty spinning downplane. He managed to get the main away but it looked ugly, he would have landed off DZ like a falling safe, and I figured somebody better be there fast to at least do something....might as well be me.

I had a new wingsuit student from Canada decide to fly off to Coolidge and not Eloy. Visitor to unfamiliar DZ, landing off the DZ; better that I follow her, get below under canopy, set the pattern, rather than land in easy grass.

These were just situations that happened and what my mind processed to do in that moment. I could face moments were time is short without luxury to think a few moments. I'm glad you hung in there and got the video. You kept a cool head.

Collectively as a group; fellow wingsuiters in Utah went on a "search and rescue" mission on foot, motorbike, and truck when a fellow wingsuiter did not muster but was spotted in the air "possibly unresponsive". Another single wingsuiter who was on the same load sat on his ass and had lunch. He makes my "black list".

To not look after yourself but choose to look after another is a personal decision. Not everybody has the same set of shared values...not everybody was educated the same.

OK.....So WTF is my point?

MOST of us are civilian...SOME of us are military or ex-military. But together...WE ALL ARE AIRMEN!

We are flying in airplanes and getting out with parachutes; an inherently dangerous operation; civilian or military. Our "origins" are paratroopers; never forget that. Much has changed; but somethings about getting out of planes with parachutes has not.

Take a look at any airbase or carrier operation. Even when flying the patter or DLQ's you always see aircraft in a PAIR...TWO; a wingman. If something goes wrong, you bail out....at least you got a buddy to circle overhead and pop smoke.

Now we don't have to go BAT 21 in terms of some sort of Paramilitary Search and Rescue Mode.....but we are getting out of planes with parachutes. Best to look out for one another as best we can as airmen.

DSE raises a good point about cell phones and EPRB's.....and giving yourself the tools to be PREPARED for the UNEXPECTED.

In every jumpsuit and wingsuit I have tucked into the "goggle / kerchef" pocket one of those small life vest whistles and signal mirror. Damn those Boy Scout habits die hard! LOL.

For night wingsuit flights/jumps I tuck in an extra cyalume stick or better yet a SureFire flashlight in addition to the whistle.

If you land....and bust yourself up; you at least have a means of signaling to the people out trying to find you when you literally are not able to get up and walk back to the DZ from landing injuries.

Like it or not...we are AIRMEN; getting out of airplanes using parachutes.

Look out for one another......and BE PREPARED!