0
Taz

USPA Recognizes Wingsuit Record Category

By Taz, in Wing Suit Flying

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SuperGirl    0

SuperGirl

Phil,
Well said on encouraging people to fly more, to organize better record-setting events, and to empirically test other new ideas/improvements. Couldn't agree more. And thanks for already doing that.

but...

Quote

Quote


so shut up and accept this one?


Until you come up with a proposal which addresses and nullifies those points...yes.


nooooooo!!! don't tell people to shut up!!
It is often the case that people who point out problems aren't the ones to solve them. (ever heard of Hilbert? He had a whole list of them. Some generated whole disciplines within mathematics. It's not like he had any good solutions when he announced that list at a conference - now that's some serious bitchin, some might say...)
It is also often the case that the ones who solve such problems wouldn't have otherwise given them much thought, had it not been for those other fuckers who bitched in the first place.

So... what if Jarno or Butters or whoever you like doesn't have your solve-all cure-all solution yet?

Bitchin is good (to some extent). Criticism needs to be allowed. (though, guys - can we please be nicer to each other when we throw in all those ideas? pleaaase? Try the 2 positives followed by one negative technique. Might get others to listen to you better :P )

Perhaps one of these days some dude (or dudette) comes along and starts reading all this shit and thinks "ohh, but it's obvious!" and shows us all some solution that'll have everyone go "DUUHHH, that's so easy, why didn't I think of doing that before?"

Or maybe we need a multi-step process in evaluating the formations. Say, grid is step 1. Then step 2 addresses the "prettyness" factor from some totally different criteria through some other interesting method... let's call it the "15-dimentional titty-twisting"(or 15D-TT) method.
Neither The Grid nor the 15D-TT would be sufficient to judge the formation alone, maybe the 15D-TT only works well on a grid-worthy formation but otherwise yields a bunch of crap, and the other way around... but when combined, they two steps may yield a very accurate set of judging criteria.
Who the fuck knows?

But discussion doesn't hurt. Some of it may be total crap... but sooner or later there might be some brilliant ideas coming out of it, and there's a big chance that those good ideas will come as a reaction to lots of prior bad ideas rather than just from someone thinking about the grid all by himself, with nobody to talk to, and all of a sudden having a major revelation.

That being said, I look forward to seeing the grid in action in.. what is it.. 10 days?? Can't wait to fly with you all in Elsinore!!!


p.s. blbbppp!!!

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SuperGirl    0

SuperGirl
Quote


As a side note, I am actually attempting these things to meet people and have fun, do we sometimes loose sight of that? I hope I don't get to that point.



excellent point, Simon.
No, we shall not lose sight of that.
Fri the 6th. Evening. Elsinore. Party in my room. Or something. We'll figure it out. It's gonna be fuuuuun!!!

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DSE    3

DSE
Quote


That being said, I look forward to seeing the grid in action in.. what is it.. 10 days?? Can't wait to fly with you all in Elsinore!!!


p.s. blbbppp!!!



dissatisfaction is a catalyst for change.

Rather than saying "STFU," maybe there is some truth in the dissent and it needs to be addressed?

Well said post, Andreea. I too, am looking forward to seeing the "grid in action" but more interested in seeing a great jump. Kinda have decided not to try for the formation, but it will be good to see y'all there.

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yuri_base    1

yuri_base
Quote

Diamond sides overlap by 13.5%



How did you come up with 13.5%? No need to answer - this is a rhetorical question. :D



Ok, since f10ckers are as clueless as a flock of geese, I feel the need to help the blind cross that road. You know, my love to f10cking is so immeasurable, no words can describe it.


The most pleasing visual aspect of a perfect formation is its SYMMETRY, not the stupid grid structure. It's up to organizers to decide on the shape of the formation, but to judge the success, a single and very simple check is performed: the perfection of symmetry about its flight axis. This opens the doors to all kinds of imaginative shapes instead of seeing stupid diamond grid every time.

So, the process is simple:

1. One week BEFORE (repeat 10 times, BEFORE :D) the record attempt organizers submit the plan of the formation to [whatever bunch of official farts] which should also be publicly available. The formation can be of arbitrary shape, spacing, can have irregularities in spacing, lines connecting the jumpers can be curved, etc. Obviously, it's in all participants' interests to plan something that looks aesthetically pleasing.

2. Formation should have two jumpers dedicated to be on the symmetry axis of the formation in the direction of the flight: front and rear. The video of the record attempt is then postprocessed by a filter that keeps these two dots (their helmets - pink Protecs would be perfect :D) in fixed spots in frame (kinda image stabilization - I think Jarno posted an example of that some time ago... a shaky pony became rock-steady - pretty handy filter!).

3. Judges first visually confirm that the formation flown does look like the formation planned. I.e. middle finger should look like middle finger, vagina should look like vagina, etc.

4. Judges then check that formation is symmetrical. One side of the frame is flipped (semitransperently to see the other side through) around the axis of symmetry connecting the Pink Protecs and for at least 5 seconds continuously the silhouettes of the "mirror" jumpers should overlap. That would pose a natural limit of permissible distortion in the formation instead of defining "arbitrary" 13.5% to make a failed formation a posteriori record. ;)

That's all.

Here is some ASCII found online that can give you idea of the possibilities. :)



|                  

|.|                 

|.|                 

|\./|                

|\./|                

.               |\./|               .

\^.\          |\\.//|          /.^/ 

\--.|\       |\\.//|       /|.--/  

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- -/_/_/- ^ ^  |  ^ ^ -\_\_\- -   


THIS IS NOT A POT LEAF      

THIS IS A FAG LEAF          

DON'T GET TOO CLOSE         





/\                                                                  

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(c) 2009 Yuri Base

Prohibited to use without saying "F10cking sucks!" to at least 10 people. ;)
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SuperGirl    0

SuperGirl

Ohh man, here I was, thinking... wow! great suggestions! Really digging the idea of making a formation that looks like ascii hot chick... I could already see myself flying the nipple slot... or the clit slot... ohhh, the possibilities...

but then it hit me! how could you post that as a suggestion? it's NOT SYMMETRICAL!!! It fails your very own criterium no.4!!
Yuri!!!

:)

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yuri_base    1

yuri_base

Why don't you develop a plan for a future record by taking a symmetric picture of yourself and converting it to ASCII?

http://www.roysac.com/blog/2009/03/ascii-art-nudes-versus-original-playboy.html

Then post it here for our expert approval. ;)

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stoney3434    0

stoney3434
Reference:

Re: [Buried] USPA Recognizes Wingsuit Record Category - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To :

Ditto that.
We are all interested in improvements to the process!
and...............................Zack's

interested - sure.

willing to help - doesn't seem so.

a few people have said it in this thread - you can make anything work for the most part. Sure it's now judgeable, would you make a bet that I can type a word a minute? Of course not, because you know I can. Records should be something special, something that is above and beyond. The current criteria does not make that differentiation. To me (and others) these 'records' hold little merit as 'records' and should not be adopted by the world unless we have a better judging system that really shows some talent.

...then Phil's question to Zach, .........

how would you go about improving the current system?
and then...............

IMO, this is a healthy discussion that could potentially reveal some avenues for improvement.
Matts post makes it obvious that there is much flexibility in the grid system where scaling, stretching, and creative imagination can be applied to validate (what I consider to be) an invalid formation. and ANdre's and SPOT's most recent posts ,...
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

"Stoney" here --- Hi all ............

I am going to offer just one change and addition to the wing suiting record formation criteria as I understand it now and have seen it applied for the past year ,... to use with ANY type of GRID . I believe this one firts change CAN at least "begin the process" of refining the criteria to provide a more acceptable and symetrical visual outcome and a more pleasing visual result which will also more accurately reflecting the accomomplishment vs. the intention of each flyer and the overall 'team" of flyers' in the formation. It is something I see and have seen as the most glaring and obvious weakness in the whole application of the BEST FIT grid concept as it applies to the flying skill of everyone "FOLLOWING" the formation's ''leader or leaders"

I hate conflict and so I hesitated to bring this change up (more than twice) because "I" hoped someone else would also bring it up, I felt I am not one of the top wingsuiters in the world who has earned the right to make unsolicited comments ( and I did not see comments being solicited) and I really understand and appreciate what Taya and Phil and jeff have done for wingsuiting with their hard work and efforts. I have been a "don't rock the boat and be disliked type guy on all this grid stuff and I did not want to be the "only one" who was sorta seeing and feeling that all the focus on this grid stuff was taking some of the fun and beauty of symmetry and just plain "spiritual neatness" out of wingsuiting for me ,...( I just wanted to go up with friends, laugh alot, have lots of birds around me and be safe) I also just can't handle 5 or 6 flights a day for 4 or 5 days or even half that time )
I have been reading this forum and seeing a lot of conflict and defensive comments grow up about the grid stuuf in addition to flocking vs performance flying... When I finally saw more of you I know and respect as great flyers bringing up some of my thoughts ( and I have others) it encouraged me to go ahead and two finger type this posting. So here goes:

This suggestion I am making "IS" a concept taken "from formation aircraft flying itself and utilized by The Thunderbirds, The Blue Angels, and every formation team of pilots I have seen and talked with... ( 3 of my demo pilo associates over the years were ex T-Birds and One was the leader in 64---yes I know I am old !)

AND My SUGGESTION IS YOU ASK????

It 'is' that the ''LEADER''( lead aircraft-pilot) is always POSITIONED and headed PERFECTLY and that everyone else is to do their very best with their skills to fly off the "leader's wingtips in whatever position and at whateverr distance off the leader's perfect position they have been assigned to fly...............

So ,....in placing ANY type of grid to be overlayed on any photo of the leader and formation,... the "leader" ( "lead aircraft" /lead pilot and always the most steady, stable, reliable pilot in terms of heading, horizontal and vertical speeds as well as constant situational awareness) MUST BE PLACED AND ASSUMMED TO BE IN THE " DEAD CENTER" of the VERY FRONT MOST AND CENTER BOX OR DIAMOND OF ANY GRID BEING USED.....

The ""LEADER"" "is the one sole flyer" NOT following anything but rather BEING FOLLOWED by wingmen, stinger ( trail aircraft) and every otehr pilot inany formation and "the leader is the one pilot that is in no way flying by reference to visual reference to his or her wingmen or any other flyers.

The "leaders sole intent" is to fly "on heading and stable" at a predetermind speed to a predetermined spot over the ground and accomplishment of that intent HAS to be assumed to be perfect in any photo momentary judgement of the foloowing pilots or of the entire overall formation.

So,...ANY GRID should be placed as "a BEST FIT" over a formation ---yes,.......BUT "only" with the leader in the photo put "DEAD CENTER" in the front and center box or diamond of whatever Grid is used. If the leader is flying a formation that has a straight front line,...the Grid can be angled to "best fit" all the flyers in that line,... BUT it should never move the "leader" out of the Dead Center Position in the Center front box or center front diamond... ( or at most withnin a foot or so of Dead Center to allow for a moment of minor turbulence) The leader does not have to deal with any burbles ( except maybe Scotty passing below ---LOL ) and the leader set's- up within the first 15 seconds right after leaving the aircraft on a best heading and pre-determined speed to take the formation to the opening point and to allow the formation to build behind them. Their resposibility is to remain stable and to only hold their heading and speeds to allow the followers to enter their specific slots .... Therefor, they should not in any way be moved inside any grid over their photo from left to right or forward or back in their box or diamond ... Essentially they really should have NO BOX space or diamond space AT ALL ---only a POINT in the dead center of the lead and or center Grid box, diamond, circle,.. or whatever is being attempted.

Try this with the grid on the 71 way from last year's Elsinore and the redcent Chicago record formation and the August Pepperrall record formation and you will see why I suggest this one improvement and also suggest and hope this one change be applied in Elsinore this year,.... You will see where I am coming from and why doing this one thing will materially contribute to make whatever size formation record results from such a concept of "always following the perfect leader either directly or indirectly"( through the flyers ahead and to the sides) be MUCH MORE REFLECTIVE of what is actually intended in the mind of each of the flyers and what is actually being attempted by each of flyers ,.......and so ,....the resulting "outcome" in terms of "we did it" or " we came close but didn't " as a team formation, wiill be more reflective of the actual skill in the accomplishment of each indivdual ,...but also the overall "team"...ie the collective skills of the flyers,...AND BE MORE SPECIAL and "not easily repeated" ( the thoughts put forth by Zach and not as easily played with OR QUESTIONED by the organizers AND/or JUDGES who might naturally get caught up emotionally in the enthusiasm of any record attempting event to lean toward producing the desired outcome...AND the outcome will always be based on the merit of the positions of both those flyers who can see the leader at all times during the flight....and how well those who can't see the leader can fly off those who can...... ISN"T THAT what the whole thing is about,..in addition to maily being safe and having fun!?

I was sad to see what I knew were some of the very best positioned ( ie most skillful pilots in last year's record attempt be made to look less skillful by moving the grid around to accomplish the desired result ... THAT wasn't fair to those "most skillful pilots looking at their implied performance ,..and it isn't fair to everyone who feels they did something they really didn't do as per the original stated intentions for the formation and the actual thing they were trying to accomplish on each jump. ( BUT I also agree that the whole thing WAS a reord of sorts in that it was majestic, beautiful and "almost accomplished ----this year shoud be the year of no questions ---and I wish everyone that... I wish I could be there with you)

I rerad Matt's/Zacks/Andrea/Spot/Lurch and several less conservative poster's comments tonight ( and "they are" ALL out flying wingsuits constantly) I agreed with Zack , Matt , Andre and Spot that input should be encouraged,.. not discouraged (even by nuance) and tha seeing problems without offering a solution is not of insignificant value. I especially agree and believe that a national or world record should represent something very special and not easily accomplished" I hope to be in one next year so I want it to 'really MEAN SOMETHING special in terms of accomplishment as well as fun if I'm gonna go for it then.

I had hip surgery after I left Pepperall ( I know I wimped out there after a couple jumps) I just wasn't enjoying the full time pain and the lightning bolts of nerves when I landed . So I have been away from all of you great flyers for awhile... But,.. I hope to be healed and back flying this winter down in Sebastian and to be trying to qualify for a Florida record out over the beach and for the world record attempt when it goes to 100 ( if not this year) ...

Good luck out there. Rick,..you can fly 'for me" this year ,..OK my friend?......

Wish everyone a safe and fun time.... Enjoy !!! Stoney
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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unclecharlie95    3

unclecharlie95
I was asked to come up with criteria for an unofficial Italian formation record attempt earlier this year. I used:

____________________________________

Pre-declare the formation layout, number of slots and position of each flyer. The layout must have a central axis and be symmetrical.

Take photo of the formation from directly on top.

The photo should clearly show the pre-declared layout at first glance.

With:

- a clear central axis
- straight rows and columns/ obvious gaps between lines
- symmetry

To judge the formation the photo should be examined in photoshop:

- can straight lines be drawn along each row and column of the formation, the line passing over each jumper.

- can straight lines be drawn in between each row and column of the formation.

- cutting the photo in half down the central axis, and reflecting the right side on top the left all the flyers should overlap.
______________________________

Agreed, this solution offers only a small tolerance for formation "scatter" but IMO formation attempts should be about quality not quantity.

There are some good ideas emerging in this thread.
BASEstore.it

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kallend    1,646

kallend
Actually I quite like the grid, but I'd make the following adjustments:


Grid can be any shape you like as long as it's pre-declared to the judges. The boxes could be hexagons, rhombuses or triangles, or a combination thereof, for example. That allows more creative formation design.

Instead of requiring some portion of the jumper be inside their extended box, I'd make it that no portion of the jumper may be outside their extended box. That would eliminate situations like Jarno drew.

On to Elsinore...
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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stoney3434    0

stoney3434
Rember in my posting where I said (I have other ideas too) Well,....I quite agree with what Uncle Charlie just posted .....in addition to having the "leader" be in a dead center position within whatever type of grid box, diamond, circle etc. is used.

My way of saying the central axis he mentions would have been to say that the formation should have some sort of central spine predifined ( either as a straight line or even as a predefined S but through which.... ( as U.Charlie suggests,... that predeclared spine line will pass through and touch each flyer assigned to be on that line and no other flyer....

Then also as Mccordia and U charlie suggest ,..there shouild be symetry on both sides accoplished with the predeclared lines touching all the flyers that were assigned to those positions within the grid and with no flyers being any closer than than one full wingspan from another to either their side, behind or in front of them in the formation.

Such a formation still allows "the follower" flyers some movement within their assigned grids but also insures a visual aesthetic of symetry that Uncle Charlie 's lines would also cause without allowing the line in the open space between two flyers to "just sqeuek through a tiny space bewteen jumpers.

I would like to see THIS kind of formation done by the best flyers that can be brought together to create a real challenge ,..worthy of a record and as Uncle Charlie, Zach and many others have expressed, BE a REAL quality formation ,...regardless of quantity achieved . start small at 40 or 50 ,..get THAT formation on the first DAY using the very best flyers and then build from there adding a row or two on each side WHILE STILL using that same QUALITY criteria ,...Get THAT NEXT record the second or third day (breaking the first) and then add more to try to break the previous but always using the "quality criteria" ,..and so forth

If this is too hard to incorporate for Elsinore ,...then at least do the leader at dead center and Central straight spine with the lines that Uncle Charlie is suggesting....

What do those of you going to ZElsinore think? It's going to be your attempt and your record ( records)if you get them?

I suggest that those of you going to Elsinore provide some imput here on this site and directly to Taya, Jeff and the Plane leaders on Uncle Charlie and my suggestions and allow them some time to consider the ideas,...identify problems we might not be seeing in our suggestions and have time to work on whatever can be done and appears most desirable to the participants before you all gather there in November....

Responses???
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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kallend    1,646

kallend
Quote


Rember in my posting where I said (I have other ideas too) Well,....I quite agree with what Uncle Charlie just posted .....in addition to having the "leader" be in a dead center position within whatever type of grid box, diamond, circle etc. is used.

My way of saying the central axis he mentions would have been to say that the formation should have some sort of central spine predifined ( either as a straight line or even as a predefined S but through which.... ( as U.Charlie suggests,... that predeclared spine line will pass through and touch each flyer assigned to be on that line and no other flyer....

...

Responses???




What's so special about a central spine or left-right mirror symmetry?

That would exclude any formations like these:

www.airportjournals.com/Photos/0905/X/0905013_11.jpg

cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/JK9857-001.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=2AC75F6FAA20674C1C6697A48474604583AFF2D6DA9CA21449207362A3F24453

www.blackcormorant.net/images/2007/06/05/pelican_echelon_2258.jpg

www.e-team-usa.org/fdt/L-Echelon.gif

www.tutimaacademy.com/images/echelondown2.jpg

http://www.hownowcow.com/gallery/stepav8.jpg

www.nf104.com/ab/ch_1/pics/fu206.jpg
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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DSE    3

DSE
Quote



If this is too hard to incorporate for Elsinore ,...then at least do the leader at dead center and Central straight spine with the lines that Uncle Charlie is suggesting....

What do those of you going to ZElsinore think? It's going to be your attempt and your record ( records)if you get them?

I suggest that those of you going to Elsinore provide some imput here on this site and directly to Taya, Jeff and the Plane leaders on Uncle Charlie and my suggestions and allow them some time to consider the ideas,...identify problems we might not be seeing in our suggestions and have time to work on whatever can be done and appears most desirable to the participants before you all gather there in November....

Responses???



Given that people have been practicing "grid spacing" for the past year, changing anything at this point would be as imprudent as changing head/toe at the last minute last year, IMO.

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stoney3434    0

stoney3434
My suggestion and Uncle Charlie's would not change in any way the spacing everyone has been practicing all year Spot,... it is only a higher quality way of judging the eventual photos to determine the actual outcome... The leader stable and dead center ahead is what we have always flown and the lines Charlie suggests can be draw through most of the formations I have already seen ( with only a few fllyer exceptions on last year's 71 way over on the left side) It's no big deal but it makes a much more visually pleasing result .

Kallends one side formations examples above do show that not all formations have to have a DECLARED and illustrated central spine ( or axis ) but THAT desire and intent to attempt an NON-symetrial formatioon CAN BE DECLARED in advance and "the leader" designated. So the line through the flyers Uncle Charlie suggests and my wingsuit span minimum distance from a flyer who is NOT suppossed to be (and Declared in advance to attempt to be closer ) WOULD also still apply .

Remember that the lines do not HAVE TO BE DECLARED TO BE STRAIGHT LINES .. They can be declared to be curved like a weed whacker or even an S but it wiould be have to be shown on the DE CLARED IN ADVANCED DRAWING prior to attempting the formation.

Larger formations do usually tend to try to be symetrical but INTENDING to do a DECLARED NON symetrical formation would be fine. ... and would exempt that formation but would not exempt the flyers from being touched by the predetermined lines in the positions they are tergeting and are drawn on whatever kind of grid illustration is going to be overlaid on the photo...

You-all do whatever you as a group want this year ,...but it's not changing the spacing or the flying that I was suggesting or Uncle Charlie is suggesting.. It is simply using and explaining the use of the scalable grid in a way that more accurately reflects the desired position of the the leader and all the flyers...--- I would be happy to just see the leader in the dead center position based on the logic I presented in my prior post....but the lines through the flyers Uncle Charlie suggested wouild also be a better way to present a more beatiful final outcome... and less subject to questions of manipulation of a photo rather than individual skills and overall team accoplisment .

And yes spot ,..you all the great flyers who want to try this record HAVE been practicing for another year and most were in the big way 71's and the 73 formation (for Rick) I got to see from the back middle last year. So,...some fine tuning in the grid measuring process along with the "scalable grid should be a piece of cake after a year's practice and not really be a big deal... I have seen almost all the flyers listed for Elsinore flying last year in Elsinore and AND THEY ARE AS A GROUP VERY CAPABLE of doing a formation that would be judged as Uncle Charlie and I am suggesting,...but that is not my call.....(Andre and Brian can do it too!) I am just trying to make the whole record thing more special, more accurate relative to skill in accomplisnment and therfor more meanigful to each participant while making a case for something that is less open to apparent "manipulation for outcome" .... OR you can just go for a big formation,..have fun, take photos and don't use any type of measurement of the results ,..JUST HAVE A GOOD TIME let the photos and videos that result speak for themselves ... It would " still be fantastic" ( and would be much less pressured!)

the best to all out there....
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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fasted3    0

fasted3
Stoney you got me thinking and I came up with this idea. Each flier should be within range of the one he is flying off of. Following this would produce beautiful formations. You should be able to look at it and know it is good. Here is my idea.
But what do I know?

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peggs82    0

peggs82
Quote

Stoney you got me thinking and I came up with this idea. Each flier should be within range of the one he is flying off of. Following this would produce beautiful formations. You should be able to look at it and know it is good. Here is my idea.



See ideas!!

Ed I like the idea...I really do. And you picked a very good example photo to show its use.

While I was thinking how this system could be best used, I actually found my argument FOR the grid (or at least its use in CONJUNCTION with any other system). In this system, each flier is treated as an individual entity. There is no overall defined shape. We must remember the accordion effect.

You can see how the 25 way is slightly stretched on the right, producing some "wavy" judging lines. Magnify that over a larger formation

If we were using the circle/lines/circle system right (to nullify the accordion), you would lay out straight lines with the circles appearing where the flyer should be. The flier should then fit in near those circles. But you know what we would then have??? - THE GRID

But I do think that this would be a useful tool. Perhaps used on sloppy areas to show just who was out, and by how far...

A thought to keep in mind with these systems is rapid deployment. As we have seen in the field, quick calls for aircraft (to keep them flying - keeping costs down), means we need a fast system.

Perhaps create a photoshop brush of the circle/lines/circle? That way you could scale it by using the size of the brush?

Keep these ideas up...this is what I was talking about! Dosen't if feel better when we contribute rather than only criticize?

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stoney3434    0

stoney3434
Ed,..I'm so glad I could help stimulate some thinking and yes Ed ,...I sorta see where you are going...with the leader at dead center in the front and each person within a certain range of the one two or three people they are flying off BUT not toooooo close. We had the same rule flying formation aircraft ... "get in close but no closer than 10 to 20 ft. off a wingtip ....

My only thought is what if one side of the formation has each flyer's a bit farther away from their flyer or flyers being keyed off ,..then the one behind them is back a bit more and the same for the next ....It might start to stretch one side of the formation bak farther ( Your picture is kinda starting that on the right side and the 71 way photo shows that on the left side . Still,..it IS a further improvement and refinement over just being on the lines as Uncle Charlie was suggesting... Each idea,...My leader dead center, Uncle's lines and your "in range circles makes the overlay more refined and therefor requires more skill to be in the correct position and I like that. What is this """ project '''' being worked on? Nevermind ,..I'll see it when I see it,..but hearing about that kind of ecret project going on without siliciting thoughts from other flyers "is" what causes other wingsuiters to hang back and not offer their potentially great ideas or not offer their critiques ( not a big problem on this forum)- like Andre was saying in one of her well thought out posts...

I bet the final criteria in two or three years will be incredibly simple and the only way to get the kind of chaos formations that have been posted on this forum that would be a technically qualified record but totally ugly record would be for some rebel group to go up with that very intention to create "A Qualified Random Chaos Record"( and that might require even greater skills to pull off,.. so it could be fun to see done)
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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DSE    3

DSE
Quote

Stoney you got me thinking and I came up with this idea. Each flier should be within range of the one he is flying off of. Following this would produce beautiful formations. You should be able to look at it and know it is good. Here is my idea.



What a uniquely brilliant concept.:P

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fasted3    0

fasted3
Thanks! This is a good idea because I didn't try hard at all to make it fit. I simply eyeballed the formation and made my crude drawing. A bit of effort could have made a better fit, I'm sure, because the fliers did such a good job. The fact that it would totally rule out any hypothetical crap formations is a plus. another point is that while I used 90 degrees for my angles, there is no reason a proper WS formation should be limited to that, and by simply altering the angles, and sizing the circles, any degree of accuracy could be attained.
For Stoney: I know that a formation that used estreem distance on one side and short on the other may look a little distorted, but in fact I think the differences would balance out more and in fact would look good to the eye anyway.
It all comes down to how tight you want to draw the circles.
But what do I know?

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stoney3434    0

stoney3434
Yea,..I understand Ed,..and a great refinement However I still think that each flyer should "also" be touching the lines draw through the ideal positions of where the Declared Formation's flyer's are expected to be...( as Uncle Charlie suggested)

In the photo you posted, the far right individual flyer appears to be just outside where he or she would be touching those lines as suggested by Uncle Charlie and sure enough,..that is the one place in the formation where my eye and most eyes would be drawn to with the thought that "something is a bit wrong here" that effects the overall formations symmetry .. It is "close" to damn near perfect symmetry except for that point and as you mentioned it would grow as the number's grew.

That is why this "big" formation record stuff has to be considered a "true TEAM effort and accomplishment " Each flyer's position impacts all the other positions keying off them. It is NOT that one flyer on the right side of the photos flying alone that is causing him to be just off and outside from touching the lines that would have been draw for this formation. The flyer's flying that is the sole reason for his not touching the line,..but rather the cumulative effect of those flying the right forward line....

The same was and would be true using these combined leader at dead center, Charlies lines and your in range circles.on last year's Elsinore 71. The combined flying on the left leading edge of that photo obviously stretched that left side aircraft's flyers out compared to the right side as each left side flyer keyed off the flyer ahead of them who was aalso a bit too far back from the ideal lines of position.

THAT is one point I want to stress... THIS approach to judging should never focus on just one flyer being off the line or out of range without looking at the positions of those other flyers off of which each flyer is guaging his or her distance... At the flying levels of the current wingsuiters trying these formations it will usually be a team ( multiple person spacing problem not just any one individual ...

I like all this input and it all makes sense.... I hope the powers to be are reading and considering these ideas.... Well done Ed Charlie ( and me)... Come on Andre,....I just know that special relationship logical solution solving oriented mind is running multiple scenarios ove some wine at home.... Let's hear your thoughts ... And what about the photographers,...... Matt Scotty Craig ? ---any of this look good to you guys?
Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

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