The111 0 #76 October 27, 2009 QuoteBut think of this as writing a paper. You get your first draft, you sweat through it and to you it's the most awesome thing in the world. Then you get feedback from your reviewer. It looks like they totally trashed it!! All your work turned inside out! But that's not true at all. You take the suggestions and rework through your paper and make it better. Then you get it reviewed again. And trashed some more. And you rework it even more. And so on, until you end up publishing a very polished version... None of the criticism you got along the way was meant to turn you back.. it was just there to help you improve something you'd already done pretty well, but that had room for getting even better. Excellent advice Andreea. I am definitely interested in improvements to the process.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taz 0 #77 October 27, 2009 Ditto that. We are all interested in improvements to the process!It's the Year of the Dragon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #78 October 27, 2009 QuoteDitto that. We are all interested in improvements to the process! So shouldnt testing and analysing how the current system performs, and than refining and improving the current system be the next step, instead of working with BPA, PSA, FAI etc. to get this system accepted?JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #79 October 27, 2009 Quote Quote Ditto that. We are all interested in improvements to the process! So shouldnt testing and analysing how the current system performs, and than refining and improving the current system be the next step, instead of working with BPA, PSA, FAI etc. to get this system accepted? But, but, but I want to be on a record and acknowledged now! "That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #80 October 27, 2009 With or with out the grid, everyone who was on the 71 way and will be on the 100 way, are already part of a record event. The difference is whether it's a slot-perfect record, or being the largest assembly of wingsuit flyers in the world. Never have 71 been put in the air with any semblance of formation, and no matter how large the next one is (assuming it's more than 71) it will be a record as well. Slot perfect be damned, it was a wonderful formation, albeit lopsided here and there. And it's never before been done. But...I do think the last minute addition of the grid has more than a couple participants feeling less than euphoric about what was accomplished. We NEED competition, measurement, and accomplishment in this discipline if we're to continue to grow. It's critical. Establishing that measurement system needs a lot of input, thought, mechanics, brilliance, criticism, effort, and test jumps to make it viable. It's bullshit to criticize the grid effort without offering means of making it better. The grid belongs to the US in USPA. Whether you like it or not Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Buried 0 #81 October 27, 2009 QuoteDitto that. We are all interested in improvements to the process! interested - sure. willing to help - doesn't seem so. a few people have said it in this thread - you can make anything work for the most part. Sure it's now judgeable, would you make a bet that I can type a word a minute? Of course not, because you know I can. Records should be something special, something that is above and beyond. The current criteria does not make that differentiation. To me (and others) these 'records' hold little merit as 'records' and should not be adopted by the world unless we have a better judging system that really shows some talent. Where is my fizzy-lifting drink? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #82 October 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteDitto that. We are all interested in improvements to the process! interested - sure. willing to help - doesn't seem so. a few people have said it in this thread - you can make anything work for the most part. Sure it's now judgeable, would you make a bet that I can type a word a minute? Of course not, because you know I can. Records should be something special, something that is above and beyond. The current criteria does not make that differentiation. To me (and others) these 'records' hold little merit as 'records' and should not be adopted by the world unless we have a better judging system that really shows some talent. The current system produced the attached formation. Do you have a problem with it?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peggs82 0 #83 October 27, 2009 holy hell people... Here is my idea to all of this. Get out and actually fly some formations. Apply the grid, and then apply your alternative (like matt did). Only then can we have an honest discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of the current system. All of this fear mongering is purely speculative until you start submitting hard evidence to the discussion of why one system is better than the other. Show pictures. Show REAL WORLD examples of how YOUR formation would be better served with YOUR alternative. Show how the grid failed you, and show how YOUR IDEA would serve not only you, but other formations as well. So far all I have seen is the 25 way in chicago, the Michigan Record, a Pops Record, and a Russian Record, and Matt's alternative. (If I missed anyone, I apologize...your efforts are appreciated). Where is your suggestion Jarno? Where is your suggestion Butters? Hold an event to test your judging criteria vs the grid, I will even come participate. If you felt excluded from the discourse, by all means...organize a 4+ way, and apply your standard. I will happily have a discussion with you and maybe even support you. The current grid had a clear evolutionary path stemming from the 71-way to what it is today. ACTUAL trial and error (not just spewing on the internet) gave a roadmap to a judge able, repeatable, achievable system. By all means, I invite you to do the same. Timmyfitz mentioned, "that in every discipline there will be growing pains." So far, all I hear is a bunch of babies crying. Why not take some steps for yourselves and then teach us all how to walk better? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #84 October 27, 2009 +1... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #85 October 27, 2009 QuoteThe current system produced the attached formation. Do you have a problem with it? Do you have a problem with the hypothetical indistinguishable formation posted previously becoming the record instead of your attached formation?"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #86 October 27, 2009 Quoteholy hell people... Here is my idea to all of this. Get out and actually fly some formations. Apply the grid, and then apply your alternative (like matt did). So just because there isnt a picture perfect alternative, looking at the current grid system, and trying to find points to improve isnt deemed worthy? There isnt anything else...so shut up and accept this one? All I (and most people here) are asking for is a point of input....yet it seems every effort made to point out some shortcomings (deeming the FAI/BPA etc acceptance push thats now appearantly happening quite rushed and premature) is waved off with 'you are a**holes...leave us alone' Look at the proposed formation 'fantasy' picture posted earlier, and tell me what you (Phill, Taya, Jeff etc) would say if someone submitted that one as a valid state/world/whatever record? Its always easy looking at the bright and shiny examples...but part of development is also looking at where it fails...and try and improve on those points...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #87 October 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteDitto that. We are all interested in improvements to the process! interested - sure. willing to help - doesn't seem so. a few people have said it in this thread - you can make anything work for the most part. Sure it's now judgeable, would you make a bet that I can type a word a minute? Of course not, because you know I can. Records should be something special, something that is above and beyond. The current criteria does not make that differentiation. To me (and others) these 'records' hold little merit as 'records' and should not be adopted by the world unless we have a better judging system that really shows some talent. Zach, how would you go about improving the current system? IMO, this is a healthy discussion that could potentially reveal some avenues for improvement. Matts post makes it obvious that there is much flexibility in the grid system where scaling, stretching, and creative imagination can be applied to validate (what I consider to be) an invalid formation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taz 0 #88 October 27, 2009 Quotescaling, stretching, and creative imagination Quick point of clarification - the USPA grid can be scaled, but it has fixed aspect ratio.It's the Year of the Dragon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #89 October 27, 2009 Quote Matts post makes it obvious that there is much flexibility in the grid system where scaling, stretching, and creative imagination can be applied to validate (what I consider to be) an invalid formation. Jarno's "figment" makes that even more obvious. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peggs82 0 #90 October 27, 2009 Quote So just because there isnt a picture perfect alternative, looking at the current grid system, and trying to find points to improve isnt deemed worthy? There isnt anything else...so shut up and accept this one? Until you come up with a proposal which addresses and nullifies those points...yes. Instead of just pointing out flaws using photoshop, why not address them and show us how you overcame those flaws? Quote All I (and most people here) are asking for is a point of input....yet it seems every effort made to point out some shortcomings (deeming the FAI/BPA etc acceptance push thats now appearantly happening quite rushed and premature) is waved off with 'you are a**holes...leave us alone' None of us are rushing FAI acceptance. FAI will take 2 years to accomplish (they table the suggestion this year, vote the next). Man...that sounds really rushed Last I checked, I haven't been flying to London every week to lobby the BPA...has anyone else here been racking up the frequent flier miles that I don't know of??? Australia has independently pushed to adopt the grid...are you going to claim that we rushed them??? Also note I never told you to leave me alone Jarno. In fact, I volunteered to come to an event where we would place YOUR system against the current one. I really told you to leave us alone huh? Quote Look at the proposed formation 'fantasy' picture posted earlier, and tell me what you (Phill, Taya, Jeff etc) would say if someone submitted that one as a valid state/world/whatever record? Yes, thats the funny thing about worst case scenarios...they are always the worst case. How would YOU suggest we FIX that??? If it were submitted, I would aim to make the record that beats it cleaner and better. You know...always try to improve Quote Its always easy looking at the bright and shiny examples...but part of development is also looking at where it fails...and try and improve on those points... Great...you've provided some shitty examples, but my point still stands. Standards are standards. There will always be minimums. Whatever you post, I'm sure I can do the very same thing in photoshop and ask you the same question. If a record is posted that I don't agree with, I will just push my group to do better. Everyone wins! I will be at elsinore 7 days before the event, come with your ideas and we will test them. Hell, we can even test them on the Bigway So I ask you all again...What is your alternative? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 73 #91 October 27, 2009 JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #92 October 27, 2009 QuoteSo I ask you all again...What is your alternative? Do what every other formation discipline does ... take docks!"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 0 #93 October 27, 2009 Quote Quote So I ask you all again...What is your alternative? Do what every other formation discipline does ... take docks! In 5 years of flying wingsuits I've seen many docked 4-way diamonds attempted, and none even close to completion. Go do it, I will be first in line to applaud you. One thing we learned on creepers at Z-Flock is that the tail guy would have his head up the butt of the front guy, since we don't extend our arms all the way out sideways. Try it on the ground, with your wingsuits on. That is just ONE reason it doesn't work...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #94 October 27, 2009 QuoteQuotescaling, stretching, and creative imagination Quick point of clarification - the USPA grid can be scaled, but it has fixed aspect ratio. but that's not written in the rules. And Matt's post makes it clear that it's scalable. If the camera is far enough away, you can make even the most minute changes to the aspheric aspects of the image to make it fit. This is where it's not objective, and why I'd like to not consider this "done" but rather a work in progress. There is no clear, complete set of rules for the grid system. Giving it to my S&TA, his response was "WTF do I do with this? I don't have Photoshop." So now it's up to me to give him a result, the result of which is in my best interest. I can screw the photograph six ways from Sunday to make it do what I want, especially with a stretchable grid, such as Matt showed. I'm certain it can be improved upon. If nothing else, there are a lot of variables that need to be written into the rules. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #95 October 27, 2009 QuoteQuoteThe current system produced the attached formation. Do you have a problem with it? Do you have a problem with the hypothetical indistinguishable formation posted previously becoming the record instead of your attached formation? Unrealistic hypotheticals are not of much interest. I do think that experience with REAL formations will lead to refinement of the judging criteria.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #96 October 27, 2009 We don't fall, we fly. You wouldn't expect a plane formation to 'take docks', as has been pointed out by Kallend in an earlier thread I can't be bothered to look up right now. Problem is, nobody has ever dug up rules for what does and does not constitute a plane formation. I was going to ask Guinness (who verified a plane formation, see before-mentioned thread), but they were closed for Christmas. It's slipped my mind since. But probably, those rules simply don't exist. Plane formations look good enough that nobody brings up the point. But in that thread, nobody could come up with a viable alternative either, even if a grid does suffer from 'Yuri scatter'.Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taz 0 #97 October 27, 2009 Actually, it is in the rules. The grid is defined with 90 degree angles, which prevents it from being "squished". Your second point is addressed by requiring video of the jump to be included for judging - which shows continuity of the formation. Furthermore, two judging signatures are required. For a state record, one can be an S&TA and the second must be a qualified USPA judge. For judges who do not have a photo program that can layer the grid like Photoshop, they have accepted a quick training and use of another available laptop computer. They have still done the actual placing of the grid themselves.It's the Year of the Dragon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taz 0 #98 October 27, 2009 PS - I am cutting and pasting here from my initial posting that started this thread, just so we don't start misinterpreting the rules by page 4 of the thread (emphasis added): *** Proposed amendment to Section 12 of the Skydiver’s Competition Manual 11 July 2009 Taya Weiss USPA Board Meeting, Dallas 12-3.2 General E. Records are categorized as follows: Add: 21. Wingsuit formation skydiving, largest formation a. Definition: A minimum of 4 Wingsuit fliers in proximate formation, without grips b. Completion is judged using a scalable grid of adjacent red and black diamonds. Each diamond has four 90-degree angles. Diamond sides overlap by 13.5% to allow each participant an additional margin of acceptable flying area. The grid is overlaid digitally on a still photograph of the formation to determine relativity of all fliers and completion of the formation c. Judges will place the grid over the formation in a way that attempts to fit all participants within their grid space (“best fit” method) d. The “best fit” indicates that if there is a way all participants can fit within their grid spaces, the grid will be placed in that orientation. e. To be judged successfully within their grid space, some part of the Wingsuit flier must be visible inside a line delineating their space f. The grid line is “out of bounds” 12-3.3 Procedures Add: D. Winguit formation claims shall submit for judging, in addition to the above: a. A diagram showing the intended formation b. One still photograph of the completed formation with all fliers visible c. One video perspective of the jump from exit to breakoff to show continuity d. The grid will be available to download from the USPA websiteIt's the Year of the Dragon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bdrake529 0 #99 October 27, 2009 QuoteSo I ask you all again...What is your alternative? Toss the grid. Admit that undocked formations cannot be judged objectively with current technology/flying ability and still be consistently "good looking". Have USPA (and later, FAI) train and license a group of judges. It's important that these judges not be participants in any record being evaluated (obviously), so they may or may not be wingsuiters. Any record claim must submit video of formation to the judging panel (minimum of 3 judges). Majority of judges must vote to confirm successful completion based on their subjective evaluation of how the formation achieved the goals submitted prior to the jump. This approach embraces the reality that undocked formations can only be judged subjectively. Jarno's hypothetical mess, the picture Matt posted, the Chicago 28-way that wasn't submitted, the recent Russian submission, etc... all demonstrate that the grid allows for formations to be technically successful, yet visually unsatisfying. This also allows the flexibility of event-specific criteria. 3D formations, for example (judged perhaps from multiple camera angles).Brian Drake Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
repcool 2 #100 October 28, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Ditto that. We are all interested in improvements to the process! So shouldnt testing and analysing how the current system performs, and than refining and improving the current system be the next step, instead of working with BPA, PSA, FAI etc. to get this system accepted? But, but, but I want to be on a record and acknowledged now! I think by gathering and attempting to do these things we learn the strengths and weaknesses of the system of the day. Look at the history of skydiving, the awards that were given in the early days for accomplishments don't even exist anymore, does that lessen the value at the time? So far nobody has asked me to be part of anything except the grid, if there is an alternative then let me know and lets see how that works. Some folks want to sit down and discuss things to come up with a solution and some folks want to get stuck in and see how it goes. I think both make up the best solution, but I am the later. As a side note, I am actually attempting these things to meet people and have fun, do we sometimes loose sight of that? I hope I don't get to that point. Simon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
