USPA Recognizes Wingsuit Record Category

[kallend 1,623]

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Stoney you got me thinking and I came up with this idea. Each flier should be within range of the one he is flying off of. Following this would produce beautiful formations. You should be able to look at it and know it is good. Here is my idea.

Nice!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[stoney3434 0]

Spot: In reading back over the past 20 or so postings on this thread and then using my idea of the Leader being placed Dead Center in the middle of the first forward grid shape of whatever kind,...then applying Uncle Charlie's lines idea,..and finally Ed's "in range of the keyed flyers idea, as well as Phil and my concrns on an accordian effect,... I really hope you do indeed see the brilliance of adding Ed's idea to mine and Uncle'Charlie's and did not make the above comment in a hasty somewhat sarcastic and teasing way.....

Of course it is not unique to say that while we all know that flying our spacing and alignment off the only one , two, three ,and sometimes four or more flyers we can see "is" the only thing that we "can control" if we are somewhere in the formation where we can not see the leaders,.. placing circles of some size at the desired range from the flyer's that will be used by each flyer to key off others and ON the predeclared LINES OF CONNECTION that pass through the mid-point of each flyer in the formation ( straight /curved lines being ok) and shown on the pre-drawn pre declared formation 'REALLY DOES' take away any possibility of the weird and ugly formations techniquely qualifying for record status...

As I said earlier ,..this does not change "anything" about how all the flyers this year have been flying to prepare for the World record 100 way that will soon be attempted,......

But ,...in the final photographs that are deemed to be the closest to what the desired predeclared formation should look like and in conjunction with the grid, my leader as 'dead center' in the leading grid box or diamond and lines and Charlie's lines of connection,...ED's idea of a FINAL requirement that each flyer have some part of his body in the circles of range off those flyers who are the only flers he or she can possibly use to fly thier position would be a Final and wonderful addition to the record requiremant that would insure that each formation has a vey close resemblance to the intended formation... THAT is not at all so using just the grid method ,....OR using the grid method with just my "leader at dead center" in the lead grid ,..OR even using UncleCharlie's lines of connection idea,...
BECAUSE while each of thos ideas makes the probability of a better looking result,...ther still remains the possibility of one, two , three or 30 or 40 of the flyers being "well off '' their desired flying positions and yet still be touching the scalable grid lines as they exist as of now in the record criteria...

Ed's 2/3 or 4 circles of range draw off of each closest flyer ahead( If appplicable),.to the right If applicable) and to the Left ( if applicable) and across the formation to the right or left if such other flyer can be seen ,....would INSURE a beautiful formation with no or very little opening for anyone to question the overall skill of each flyer and the overall team effort...

I did 12 drawings off different pictures to assure my self of this outcome and I have to say ED....."way to go" ! ! When combined with lines of connection and the leader in deadcenter of the front grid shape,..your idea some part of each flyer being both on the lines of connection ( Charlies' suggestion ) and inside the part of any cirlces that overlap from each of the flyers would be keying off of in judging their position ( the best anyone could expect aside from perfection) really "is" a unique and brillent idea...

Spot,...Phil, Taz, Jeff,...Justin, Uncle Charlie,...McCordia ( and your secret group project?, Andrea, Kelland, Yurri, ....... do the drawings and see what comes of it...

In Elsinore this year it would be best to just use the existing grid ( with the leader in dead center) and at least with Uncle Charlie's requiement that each jumper touch some part of the lines of connection pre-drawn through midpoints of the grids where a flyer is suppossed to be in the formation and not touch any line drawn through the midpoint of the pre-ddrawn intended empty spaces........That and the skills of the flyers going to Elsinore should make for a fast,..on the DZ after each flight way of judging whether the formation is a USPA national record for this year ,..... and THEN cross-checked later or at night against ED's "in range circle criteria" to see if it can also be a record using his appraoch to assuring that it is also a very-good looking formation.....

If so ( and pending hearing more ideas and McCordia's secret project group idea,... this new more rigid record criteria might better serve wingsuiting in an application for international record criteria.

Spot,...Phil, Zach, Taz, Jeff, Scotty, Matt, Justin, Lurch,..Uncle Charlie,...McCordia ( and your secret group project?) , Andrea, Kelland, Yurri, ....... do the drawings and see what you see then post your please post your thoughts........

Again Ed,..."nice"

Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

[mccordia 73]

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Spot,...Phil, Zach, Taz, Jeff, Scotty, Matt, Justin, Lurch,..Uncle Charlie,...McCordia ( and your secret group project?) , Andrea, Kelland, Yurri,

Most of the names you mention, are part of the same 'secret' club.
Its really nothing more than a group of people who took a lot of ideas and brainstorming from dz.com and advice/questions from other people in and out of the sport, and tried to come up with something we'd like to present, and see if we can (as a community) maybe develop this further.

We just want to make our initial briefing (within the next two/three days) we will show something complete to start with. And than take it from there. What we are working on as a group isnt as heavily focussed on just 'judging' formations, but hopefully will give everyone something more for general/everyday use as well.

With the discussion (FINALY!) going on here, I look forward to seeing what you all think.

As promised...more (real) soon!. And appologies for the brief shroud of secrecy.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[kallend 1,623]

OK, I see two lines of thought going on. Since I am a crystallographer by training (and crystals are just a bunch of atoms flying in a 3-d formation) I'll put it in terms I would use to my class:

A perfect formation would have both short range and long range order since everyone would be in exactly the right place. Short range order means that you are in the right place with respect to your immediate neighbors. Long range order means that you are in the right place with respect to a reference point that may be a long way off (the "base").

Since no formation is ever going to be perfect, we have to evaluate the amount of order present against some judging criterion.

Ed's suggestion as I understand it is really looking at the formation from the short range order point of view - are you in range of your immediate neighbors in terms of angle and distance, with some error circle allowed. Since this has not yet been exhaustively analyzed I will venture a guess that this will be great for small formations but as formations get larger, significant deviations from long range order will occur even while locally everything looks good (we indeed see this effect in crystals) because the short range errors can accumulate.

Taz's grid (or any modified grid or lattice criterion) is looking at long range order. The disadvantage of this is that viewed on a local (short range) scale you can have people quite out of place with respect to their neighbors, as has been repeatedly pointed out, but the long range order is still more or less OK.

More analysis is needed!

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

Adding to my own post - the size of the allowed error, whether it be positioning along lines, in boxes on a grid, or in circles using Ed's method, will have a huge effect on the outcome. If the grid's boxes were smaller, Jarno could not have come up with his pathological formation.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[stoney3434 0]

Kallend,
It was Fast Ed's idea about the short range order you speak about....

My ( Stoney)'s idea of having the Leader in the Dead Center of any grid shape's front foremost box simply reflects what is the short and long term INTENTION of any pre-declared formation and therfore "most accurately" represents the "fact" that the leader is not keying his or her position off of anyone else in the sky,...so the leader can not be assumed to be flying in less than a perfect position (to begin the flow back of keying off him and others. The leader is suppossed to take a heading, set a fall rate/ horizontal speed and hold that until break-off. Moving the leader around in the lead box , diamond or whatever shape is used in whatever type of grid or lattice is used for judging the overall formation ( be it smaller or large ) is the very most obvious form of manipulation there can be in nattempted to get a best fit from any scalable grid. ( based on Lead aircraft -trail aircraft and wingman formation flying that has been conducted by Air forces throughout the world for the past 80 years or so.

My ( Stoney's idea is a neccessary first step in avoidance of manipulation of judging a record,..BUT it does almost nothing for the weird out of position flying positions that could still occur by others behind the leader and yet qualify for record staus per the current USPA approved record criteria.

Ed ( Uncle Charlie's lines passing through the midpoint of each flyer's intended position in any pre-declared formation and thorugh the center of the intended pre-declared open spaces and then requiring the assigned flyer to be at least touchuing the line they should be on and 'NO flyer' touching any line thay was pre-declared to be the mid point of any empty open spaces between flyers in the predeclared formation would create an even better looking formation on any formation that would qualify as a record using "Stoney's" Leader dead center and "his" lines connecting the midpoint of both flyers and open spacesideas .

Still, there could be certain flyers and formations that even incorporating Stoney and Uncle Chalie's ideas "could" qulaify as records with flyers out of position ( it is much less probable -but I did drawing that show it can happen.

That is where FAST-ED's idea of the 1, 2, 3, or more cicles that represent the desired and intended Range from each flyer comes in to better tighten the flying skill of each flyer doing what they are intended to do by keying off i, 2, 3 , or 4 other flyers ahead, to the sides ( if applicable) and across the formation ( if applicable)

As I understood Ed's circles and then used them on the pictures from Chicago , the 71 way and the Peperral photos ( which I blew up on my computer screen and then used marker right on the screen) they insure that any formation that is declared a record will be something very close to what was pre- declared as the intended formartionhat and I even did one where the formation was a doble S side by side and that looked real nice as well as long as some part of the flyer was in the area if the intended range cicles created by their over-lap.

I just got some PM's that this is all part of what I will be seeing soon on this site so I'm gonna back out and let those of you with more daily exposure to flying this stuff take all the ideas presented here and integrat them as you choose into whatever judging criteria you propose

But Stoney's contribution will only be seeing the leader in any record attempt be in the dead center of the very first box, diamond, cicle, hexagon or whatever since that is what starts everone else exhibiting their flying skills and building a team accomplshment

I'm looking forward to seeing what you all come up with and then perhaps becoming re-enthusiastic about being part of such an attempt when I get both good and light enough to again qualify for a record attempt.

Maybe in Sebastian this winter? Thanks for putting up with my spelling and grammer errors ---when I try to do spell check on this site everyting I write "disappears" ?? ...

Please don't write me now suggesting that I always use spell-check ... I get it .... I'm outta this...

hmmmm what if we each carried crystals, closed our eyes and "let the force be with us" /! (Sorry --I couldn't resist)

Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

[kallend 1,623]

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Kallend,
It was Fast Ed's idea about the short range order you speak about....

yes, I realized that about 1 second after I hit post. I've edited now.

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My ( Stoney)'s idea of having the Leader in the Dead Center of any grid shape's front foremost box simply reflects what is the short and long term INTENTION of any pre-declared formation and therfore "most accurately" represents the "fact" that the leader is not keying his or her position off of anyone else in the sky,...so the leader can not be assumed to be flying in less than a perfect position (to begin the flow back of keying off him and others.

Dubious assumption IMO. That's like assuming a perfect base in RW.

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The leader is suppossed to take a heading, set a fall rate/ horizontal speed and hold that until break-off. Moving the leader around in the lead box , diamond or whatever shape is used in whatever type of grid or lattice is used for judging the overall formation ( be it smaller or large ) is the very most obvious form of manipulation there can be in nattempted to get a best fit from any scalable grid. ( based on Lead aircraft -trail aircraft and wingman formation flying that has been conducted by Air forces throughout the world for the past 80 years or so.

My ( Stoney's idea is a neccessary first step in avoidance of manipulation of judging a record,..BUT it does almost nothing for the weird out of position flying positions that could still occur by others behind the leader and yet qualify for record staus per the current USPA approved record criteria.

Ed ( Uncle Charlie's lines passing through the midpoint of each flyer's intended position in any pre-declared formation and thorugh the center of the intended pre-declared open spaces and then requiring the assigned flyer to be at least touchuing the line they should be on and 'NO flyer' touching any line thay was pre-declared to be the mid point of any empty open spaces between flyers in the predeclared formation would create an even better looking formation on any formation that would qualify as a record using "Stoney's" Leader dead center and "his" lines connecting the midpoint of both flyers and open spacesideas .

I think you'll find that the lines and boxes ideas turn out to be mathematically equivalent if the boxes are smaller that the current definition.

Quote

Still, there could be certain flyers and formations that even incorporating Stoney and Uncle Chalie's ideas "could" qulaify as records with flyers out of position ( it is much less probable -but I did drawing that show it can happen.

That is where FAST-ED's idea of the 1, 2, 3, or more cicles that represent the desired and intended Range from each flyer comes in to better tighten the flying skill of each flyer doing what they are intended to do by keying off i, 2, 3 , or 4 other flyers ahead, to the sides ( if applicable) and across the formation ( if applicable)

As I understood Ed's circles and then used them on the pictures from Chicago , the 71 way and the Peperral photos ( which I blew up on my computer screen and then used marker right on the screen) they insure that any formation that is declared a record will be something very close to what was pre- declared as the intended formartionhat and I even did one where the formation was a doble S side by side and that looked real nice as well as long as some part of the flyer was in the area if the intended range cicles created by their over-lap.

I just got some PM's that this is all part of what I will be seeing soon on this site so I'm gonna back out and let those of you with more daily exposure to flying this stuff take all the ideas presented here and integrat them as you choose into whatever judging criteria you propose

But Stoney's contribution will only be seeing the leader in any record attempt be in the dead center of the very first box, diamond, cicle, hexagon or whatever since that is what starts everone else exhibiting their flying skills and building a team accomplshment

I'm looking forward to seeing what you all come up with and then perhaps becoming re-enthusiastic about being part of such an attempt when I get both good and light enough to again qualify for a record attempt.

Maybe in Sebastian this winter? Thanks for putting up with my spelling and grammer errors ---when I try to do spell check on this site everyting I write "disappears" ?? ...

Please don't write me now suggesting that I always use spell-check ... I get it .... I'm outta this...

hmmmm what if we each carried crystals, closed our eyes and "let the force be with us" /! (Sorry --I couldn't resist)

Crystals are indeed good. (I have crystal clear thoughts.)

Internet forums are all well and good, but an in-person meeting BEFORE beer of interested parties would accomplish more, more quickly (IMO).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[The111 0]

Here is an idea I just came up with. All it requires is that you draw straight lines down the "lanes" of the formation between the flyers. If you can draw those lines without running into anybody, then you can conclude that everybody is doing their job (is lined up).

Pros:
No way to debate results. A line has zero width.
SIMPLE. No parameters to configure.
No angles required.
Lines don't even need to be parallel.
The shot does not even need to be from directly above or below. See attached for example.
No computer required. All you need is a print and a ruler.

Cons:
Lens distortion (present in all the proposed systems)
Others? (Discuss)

I call this new system the tic-tac-toe.

www.WingsuitPhotos.com

[kallend 1,623]

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Here is an idea I just came up with. All it requires is that you draw straight lines down the "lanes" of the formation between the flyers. If you can draw those lines without running into anybody, then you can conclude that everybody is doing their job (is lined up).

Pros:
No way to debate results. A line has zero width.
SIMPLE. No parameters to configure.
No angles required.
Lines don't even need to be parallel.
The shot does not even need to be from directly above or below. See attached for example.

Cons:
Discuss?

I call this new system the tic-tac-toe.

OK, but what if the spacing is 400km and the picture is taken from the Hubble telescope

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mccordia 73]

I think the most important thing is that (in time) we also try and work towards a minmum distance between flyers.

a 4 way diamond flown with an insane and/or even the most irregular spacing, is pretty much deemed a record (small country) in all systems, unless you start measuring absolute distances, and demand an minumum.

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[kallend 1,623]

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I think the most important thing is that (in time) we also try and work towards a minmum distance between flyers.

a 4 way diamond flown with an insane and/or even the most irregular spacing, is pretty much deemed a record (small country) in all systems, unless you start measuring absolute distances, and demand an minumum.

OK, so who gets to carry the metre stick?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[normiss 622]

Put a camera on the end of it and you'll never get Purple Mike away from it.

[bdrake529 0]

So this would count?

Brian Drake

[mccordia 73]

If you establish a vallue (distance) of a known object in a photo, be it a rig or arm, its not that hard to get close to accurate distance vallues...
Be it meters or ft..

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[stoney3434 0]

Matt,... your Tic Tac Toe lines passing through the "midpoints" in the predeclared formation's empty spaces where "NO flyer should be" ,....along with lines that connect the midpoints of each flyer in the designated pre-declared formation representing where each flyer SHOUD BE,.. and then using those predeclared lines to jugde quickly and accurately whether each designated flyer touches his or her "should be there" lines and doesn't touch at all his or her adjacent "shouldn't be there" lines.// is a great approach and is what I think I remember Ed Uncle Charlie suggesting to the Italians in his earlier post in this forum thread.

IT WOULD indeed be a very good way to judge any kind of formation because the lines do not have to be staight lines --- but only lines that are draw for whatever the "predeclared formation" is.

However I still must once again insist ( for all the logics I previously have covered as per Aircraft formation flying) that for the most accurate actual vs intended results to be judged in this way (or any way),...the overlay to be prepared with the " should be touching" liones and the"no-touch" lines is placed over any potential photo with the "Flock Leader's' body midpoint "Dead Center" on where he or she is supposed to be in whatever is the predeclared formation.... ( like the photo of last year's 71 way formation you posted recently with the front diamond grid centered on Jeff)

Once you do what you and Ed Uncle Charlie suggest (the touch and no touch lines )and what I suggest ( the "dead center leader" ),...there would be no controversy ever possible,..and no manipulation possible. ( such as "best fit" ) The Leader will always be where intended and the "each specific slot's designated flyer will either be on their "should touch line", ( or not ) and off their "no touch lines, (or not).

These touch and no touch lines will form a grid/latticework/ for the specific predeclered formation. It is very flexible ...the lines can be curved or straight.

One thing though ... "no touch lines" will nedd to be placed on the overlay around the sides and the rear of the overall formation ( so there can't be one or more flyers way back or way off at the sides of their assigned slots on the outer portions of the formation while still touching the lines that are connecting the midpoints of the flyers on that designated formation ) No one flyer anywhere in the formation could be touching those no touch lines around the formation. ( the first quick check on any photo)

This would indeed be a very fast way to judge incoming photos .....and the beauty of the lines approach is that it is both "simple" and "uncontestable" . The "results' will always be symmetrical ( if intended to be) , beautiful ( if intended to be) ...and most importantly, the results will reflect the actual accomplishments of each flyer compared to their assigned intentions (ie their skill) and the actual accomplishment of the overall team compared to the intention to create the pre-declared formation. (ie combined skills) This is what a "record" of any kind really "should be" .

I do not know how to draw such lines on my computer Matt,.. so I'll leave it to you and the computer literate to do so ...

Matt,..I'm really glad to see you and others involved with the current grid, both seeing it's issues and at least trying to refine the record judging criteria to make it mean something "more accurate in it's results", something "unmanipulated to a desired result" and something "very special" as well as "not easily done" (as Zach, I and numerous others have commented or implied in forum and DZ comments.)

Good luck in getting such refinements adopted...I fully recognise and credit Taya, Jeff , Phil and others for the efforts they initiated to get this ball rolling and for having wingsuiting be recognised for it's special skills set. ( I am more than willing to help advocate for improvemnets to the existing system such as you, Ed and I are suggesting, in fact, I've been doing that ever since last year but out of the glare of the forum until I saw others were interested in such ideas)

"If" such a refined system is adopted worldwide and the judging criteria starts to truely mean something really skillful and special,..I will once again become enthusiastic about trying to qulaify to be a member of such a group attempt. ( big or smaller) ...

Thanks again Matt, for your "top floor " photos and for your thoughts ....

Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

[stoney3434 0]

NO,... It would NOT COUNT in the suggestion I just posted above because there would be "no touch lines" encircling the sides and the rear of any pre-declared formation.

And... NO it would NOT COUNT in the suggestion I just posted because the out of position flyers in the photo do not have their "bodiies" on the "should be touching" lines that would be connecting the body midpoints of the pre-declared flyers on any overlay (in the way that Uncle Charlie earlier suggested and I added to Matt's Tic Tac Toe "no touch lines" along with my suggestion that the Leader be placed at Dead Center in the front ...

Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

[bdrake529 0]

Stoney, I wasn't asking a question about a modification you made after my post as I do not possess the ability to see the future. I was asking Matt about his proposal. But thanks for answering for him. He's pretty busy this week.

Brian Drake

[kallend 1,623]

When judging the perfection of a real diamond we do not designate one carbon atom as special and compare all the others to it. I don't see why the formation leader of a diamond formation (or any other shape) should be any more special than any other member.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mccordia 73]

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When judging the perfection of a real diamond we do not designate one carbon atom as special

Not at an atomic level, but when looking at a diamond the way its cut, you do look at certain aspects such as the tip, and expect all symetry to be alligned to that one. Having the tip a few inches left of right of the center doest fly there either?

JC
FlyLikeBrick
I'm an Athlete?

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

When judging the perfection of a real diamond we do not designate one carbon atom as special

Not at an atomic level, but when looking at a diamond the way its cut, you do look at certain aspects such as the tip, and expect all symetry to be alligned to that one. Having the tip a few inches left of right of the center doest fly there either?

Talking at cross purposes - you can cut glass to a nice shape even though its internal arrangement of atoms is quite irregular.

X-ray diffraction is used to determine the perfection of the atomic arrangement in a crystal (is every atom in its correct location). The breadth of the X-ray diffraction line is used to calculate the mean (RMS) deviation of the atoms from their correct position, based on a best fit. No one atom is special.

Fact is, crystallographers have been evaluating the perfection of regular arrangements of objects (atoms and molecules) for nearly a century and have developed very precise ways of doing it; there is no need for us to re-invent the wheel.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[stoney3434 0]

I'm sorry Brian,..but I saw the same thing you did and you asked with your photo while I was 2 finger typing the way to eliminate what you were illustrating so ,..I just got caught up in the discussion like we were all just standing around bouncing around ideas. I'm sorry if I offended you by jumping in,.. the again you weren't really asking a question since your illustrated photo made your point and really did not requie Matt's answer...You well illustrated the weakness in just having "no touch Tit Tak Toe lines" so I just jumped ahead in logic butting in with the solution I could see. I was never good at putting my hand up in school,/...the parlimentary rules of meetings , political diplomacy in the military, corporations or marraiges I participated in during my life. ( or anything else that delayed getting actual results quicker) .. I am too opinionated, impatient samrt and obviously humble for my own and other's good and I recognize that as my most significant weakness. Luckily, I can still count to 10 and recognise right from wrong.

But what do you think about what "I actually posted instead of my going out of order ???

Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

[bdrake529 0]

Stoney, you've met me a few times and should know I'm not uptight but enjoy good banter. I added the since evidently if you don't do that on these forums, people assume the worst and think you must be a raging asshole. Unless I am specifically vicious and mean-spirited in my words, give me the benefit of the doubt and realize I'm usually being a bit mischievous and playful in my posts.

With that in mind...

I responded to Matt's post because it fit on one page without scrolling. Sorry "War and Peace" Stoney, but your posts are much too long and boring for me to actually read.


...

Brian Drake

[stoney3434 0]

Recalling the overused response "What planet are you from?",... I have to ask if you are serious when you type something like what you just did in a forum discussion about formation flying criteria.... ( And I very completely presented "why" the leader of a formation,...be it of aircraft or wingsuiters , "IS" something special and different from ALL the other designated flyers in the formation... Please go back and read that and then tell me how what I said has anything to do with the atoms in the compressed carbon of a diamond... ( I suppose I am going to now hear about string and membrane theory next? )- LOL--and I'm just really teasing at this point).

Let's try to keep anything we discuss at as simple a level as possible and use analogies and examples that relate to the discussion and also will as many if not "everyone" to understand the discussion and the eventual solution.

Nature prefers and favors the simplest solutions .

Life is what happens while we are making other plans.

[fasted3 0]

The point man does not fly off of anybody else. As the formation is built off of him, it makes sense to measure off of him. To me anyway.

I don't care. Any number of guys flying together looks good to me.

Good luck with the record!

But what do I know?

[stoney3434 0]

Is long, thourough and explained as best as I possibly can so everone can understand what I'm trying to suggest or put forth actually be coming across as too boring for you to even read to gauge the meirt of the content?? Could my long and through actually be "right"?

What I need is an editor ... ( or a life...) I'm bored now too,.. laying around with my bad hip... I was in Jet sales and marketing for over 25 years and somewhow managed to be in the top 5% of the worl;s Jet sales reps ( by selling a whole bunch of jets) and using my sometimes critisized long , boring, but thourough proposals on how to best satisy the needs and goals of my customers.

I always hated having to try to educate,convince and persuade others to do what I already had figured out was the best way to do what they wanted and what I could see was best for them,...but I took great delight in eventually having my solutions proven to be correct. ( and at times only after customers did something else and later admitted that they wished they had listened to me --- I love I told you so's! ) But I was wrong at times too ..... in fact,.. "twice". ( any wonder why I'm not married?)

No worries all,... I'm going to get some warm milk and go to bed.

Life is what happens while we are making other plans.