Zoter 0 #1 October 17, 2003 Ok......what is the difference between a 'Pop Top' rig and a regular rig... Why would you choose one over the other......what are the pros and cons ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #2 October 17, 2003 Racer and Reflex have pop-top reserves. The reserve pilot-chute is outside the reserve container. The manufacturer claims quicker reserve deployments. Once the pin is pulled the P/C is immeadiately exposed to the air. Javelin, Dolphin, and Wings have 2 flaps covering a portion of the reserve pilot chute. They are sort of 'half pop tops'. Vector, Mirage, Infinity, and Talons have the reserve p/c inside the reserve container usually covered by at least 4 flaps, sometimes more. One design philosophy says that the pop-top promotes quicker reserve deployments. The other designs address the potential problems that pop-tops can have; snag point for main canopy lines, etc. All of the designs are TSO'd so it is mostly an aesthetic decision as a buyer/ jumper. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #3 October 17, 2003 Ive heard that some rreserve packer are not willing to work with Racer containers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mr2mk1g 10 #4 October 17, 2003 I don't know if thats because they have pop tops or becuase they are Racers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites D22369 0 #5 October 17, 2003 QuoteIve heard that some rreserve packer are not willing to work with Racer containers. I have run into one rigger that will not pack a reflex with the catapult system installed, but thankfully I havent run into one that is that biased against the racer design. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites meatbomb 0 #6 October 17, 2003 As someone has already mentioned, there are three types of rig out there at the moment. Flapped rigs eg Voodoo, Vector III, Atom, Zerox Pros: a) Covered reserve pilot chute: i) Less likely to be damaged. ii) Less likely to catch lines. b) Exposed reserve pin on top of rig: i) Easier to get buddy checked. Cons: a) Covered reserve pilot chute: i) More likely to be impeded by the flaps b) Exposed reserve pin on top of rig: i) More likely to be knocked out leading to premature. Pop-tops eg Racer, Reflex, Teardrop Pros: a) Exposed reserve pilot chute: i) Not impeded by the flaps b) Covered reserve pin on back of rig: i) Impossible to be knocked out leading to premature. Cons: a) Exposed reserve pilot chute: i) More likely to be damaged. ii) More likely to catch lines. b) Covered reserve pin on back of rig: i) Harder to get buddy checked. Half'n'halfs eg Javelin, Wings, Vortex II Pros: a) Partially exposed reserve pilot chute: i) Less impeded by the flaps b) Exposed reserve pin on top of rig: i) Easier to get buddy checked. Cons: a) Partially exposed reserve pilot chute: i) More likely to be damaged. ii) More likely to catch lines. iii) Still impeded by the flaps. b) Exposed reserve pin on top of rig: i) More likely to be knocked out leading to premature. As you can see, all have pros and cons...you need to keep asking questions, and looking at the rigs on the DZ around you, to make your own mind up. For me though, the half'n'half design does not make sense. You get all the disadvantages of a pop-top, but not the advantages. I own a Pop-top which I use for freefly / fs, which cannot have the pin knocked out. For CRW I have a flapped rig, which cannot get lines caught round the reserve pilot chute.--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #7 October 17, 2003 QuoteIve heard that some reserve packer are not willing to work with Racer containers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And other riggers charge extra for repacking Racers. The issue is not specifically anti-Racer, it is more anti-Pop-Top. Racers just happen to be the most complex type of Pop-Top. Racers are more complex because they have two pins versus the single pin on Reflex or later Teardrops. The problem is that you need a whole new set of skills to pack Pop-Tops, skills that are not explained in much detail in the Racer manual. Oh, and the closing method described in the Racer manual requires far more tools than I can count! Hee! Hee! After struggling with Racers for years, I finally developed my own Cypres-compatible tool and consigned my steel T-bodkins to the rubbish bin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites betzilla 56 #8 October 17, 2003 QuoteIve heard that some rreserve packer are not willing to work with Racer containers. There were a couple riggers around my first DZ who wouldn't pack them, but I get the odea now that it's because they're difficult to pack if you don't do them often, not because they're pop-tops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NightJumper 0 #9 October 17, 2003 Quotethat it's because they're difficult to pack if you don't do them often, not because they're pop-tops. Like anything else, it is not difficult if you know how. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #10 October 18, 2003 exactly, my racer poptop is flush every time - my rigger knows how to pack them and knows my rig - others I have tried are just not able - just a matter of training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 558 #11 October 18, 2003 Racer packing is a specialized skill, poorly described in the manual and rarely taught in riggers' courses. Since packing Racers is a complex skill, you have to stay current. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites LouDiamond 1 #12 October 18, 2003 I know that if a rigger can pack a racer neatly that he can pretty much pack everything and anything. It's those people I know who went the extra mile to learn ALL aspects of being a well rounded rigger. If it was easy, anyone could do it right?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NightJumper 0 #13 October 18, 2003 Racer packing is a specialized skillQuote Packing any rig is a specialized skill the last time I checked! That is why there is specialized training and testing to become a rigger. and rarely taught in riggers' courses. Quote While I don’t agree, if it were true I would question the courses. In addition, every boogie that Jump Shack has been to including the WFFC, they have given classes on the factory techniques of packing. They are also the only manufacture that when you get one of their tandem rigs they send a rigger/tandem examiner to your DZ to cross certify your tandem instructors and give a rigging class for FREE. Since packing Racers is a complex skill, you have to stay current. *** I agree, and since all reserves are complex in their own way you have to stay current with anything you pack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kirils 1 #14 October 20, 2003 I'm not a rigger, but from a performance standpoint I prefer a poptop. Reflex made the best one out there. After 8 chops total between a Mirage, Reflex and Jav, I have to say by far, the Reflex was definately had the fastest deployment. It was sad to see them go belly-up. I had Bomber, Trident (the company who took over the Reflex) modify my one container. And the quality and appearence was really sloppy."Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RMURRAY 1 #15 October 21, 2003 Nancy at JumpShack will send a video out to any rigger - I believe. Not sure if it is good or not. rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 0 #16 October 21, 2003 Rigging is not rocket science. I'm very uncurrent on Racers and have no trouble at all with them. They're just a silly design. I think the pop top and reserve deployment speed arguement, is a poor one. Pull the ripcord on any rig, the reserve pilot chute flies off the back. It doesn't matter if it's exposed or not. Some springs launch slightly better than others. Some packing methods will slightly hinder the launch on some rigs. None the less, pull the pin and the PC is outa there.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Samurai136 0 #2 October 17, 2003 Racer and Reflex have pop-top reserves. The reserve pilot-chute is outside the reserve container. The manufacturer claims quicker reserve deployments. Once the pin is pulled the P/C is immeadiately exposed to the air. Javelin, Dolphin, and Wings have 2 flaps covering a portion of the reserve pilot chute. They are sort of 'half pop tops'. Vector, Mirage, Infinity, and Talons have the reserve p/c inside the reserve container usually covered by at least 4 flaps, sometimes more. One design philosophy says that the pop-top promotes quicker reserve deployments. The other designs address the potential problems that pop-tops can have; snag point for main canopy lines, etc. All of the designs are TSO'd so it is mostly an aesthetic decision as a buyer/ jumper. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #3 October 17, 2003 Ive heard that some rreserve packer are not willing to work with Racer containers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #4 October 17, 2003 I don't know if thats because they have pop tops or becuase they are Racers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #5 October 17, 2003 QuoteIve heard that some rreserve packer are not willing to work with Racer containers. I have run into one rigger that will not pack a reflex with the catapult system installed, but thankfully I havent run into one that is that biased against the racer design. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
meatbomb 0 #6 October 17, 2003 As someone has already mentioned, there are three types of rig out there at the moment. Flapped rigs eg Voodoo, Vector III, Atom, Zerox Pros: a) Covered reserve pilot chute: i) Less likely to be damaged. ii) Less likely to catch lines. b) Exposed reserve pin on top of rig: i) Easier to get buddy checked. Cons: a) Covered reserve pilot chute: i) More likely to be impeded by the flaps b) Exposed reserve pin on top of rig: i) More likely to be knocked out leading to premature. Pop-tops eg Racer, Reflex, Teardrop Pros: a) Exposed reserve pilot chute: i) Not impeded by the flaps b) Covered reserve pin on back of rig: i) Impossible to be knocked out leading to premature. Cons: a) Exposed reserve pilot chute: i) More likely to be damaged. ii) More likely to catch lines. b) Covered reserve pin on back of rig: i) Harder to get buddy checked. Half'n'halfs eg Javelin, Wings, Vortex II Pros: a) Partially exposed reserve pilot chute: i) Less impeded by the flaps b) Exposed reserve pin on top of rig: i) Easier to get buddy checked. Cons: a) Partially exposed reserve pilot chute: i) More likely to be damaged. ii) More likely to catch lines. iii) Still impeded by the flaps. b) Exposed reserve pin on top of rig: i) More likely to be knocked out leading to premature. As you can see, all have pros and cons...you need to keep asking questions, and looking at the rigs on the DZ around you, to make your own mind up. For me though, the half'n'half design does not make sense. You get all the disadvantages of a pop-top, but not the advantages. I own a Pop-top which I use for freefly / fs, which cannot have the pin knocked out. For CRW I have a flapped rig, which cannot get lines caught round the reserve pilot chute.--- Swoopert, CS-Aiiiiiii! Piccies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 October 17, 2003 QuoteIve heard that some reserve packer are not willing to work with Racer containers. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And other riggers charge extra for repacking Racers. The issue is not specifically anti-Racer, it is more anti-Pop-Top. Racers just happen to be the most complex type of Pop-Top. Racers are more complex because they have two pins versus the single pin on Reflex or later Teardrops. The problem is that you need a whole new set of skills to pack Pop-Tops, skills that are not explained in much detail in the Racer manual. Oh, and the closing method described in the Racer manual requires far more tools than I can count! Hee! Hee! After struggling with Racers for years, I finally developed my own Cypres-compatible tool and consigned my steel T-bodkins to the rubbish bin. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #8 October 17, 2003 QuoteIve heard that some rreserve packer are not willing to work with Racer containers. There were a couple riggers around my first DZ who wouldn't pack them, but I get the odea now that it's because they're difficult to pack if you don't do them often, not because they're pop-tops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #9 October 17, 2003 Quotethat it's because they're difficult to pack if you don't do them often, not because they're pop-tops. Like anything else, it is not difficult if you know how. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #10 October 18, 2003 exactly, my racer poptop is flush every time - my rigger knows how to pack them and knows my rig - others I have tried are just not able - just a matter of training. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #11 October 18, 2003 Racer packing is a specialized skill, poorly described in the manual and rarely taught in riggers' courses. Since packing Racers is a complex skill, you have to stay current. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #12 October 18, 2003 I know that if a rigger can pack a racer neatly that he can pretty much pack everything and anything. It's those people I know who went the extra mile to learn ALL aspects of being a well rounded rigger. If it was easy, anyone could do it right?"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #13 October 18, 2003 Racer packing is a specialized skillQuote Packing any rig is a specialized skill the last time I checked! That is why there is specialized training and testing to become a rigger. and rarely taught in riggers' courses. Quote While I don’t agree, if it were true I would question the courses. In addition, every boogie that Jump Shack has been to including the WFFC, they have given classes on the factory techniques of packing. They are also the only manufacture that when you get one of their tandem rigs they send a rigger/tandem examiner to your DZ to cross certify your tandem instructors and give a rigging class for FREE. Since packing Racers is a complex skill, you have to stay current. *** I agree, and since all reserves are complex in their own way you have to stay current with anything you pack. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirils 1 #14 October 20, 2003 I'm not a rigger, but from a performance standpoint I prefer a poptop. Reflex made the best one out there. After 8 chops total between a Mirage, Reflex and Jav, I have to say by far, the Reflex was definately had the fastest deployment. It was sad to see them go belly-up. I had Bomber, Trident (the company who took over the Reflex) modify my one container. And the quality and appearence was really sloppy."Slow down! You are too young to be moving that fast!" Old Man Crawfish Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMURRAY 1 #15 October 21, 2003 Nancy at JumpShack will send a video out to any rigger - I believe. Not sure if it is good or not. rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 0 #16 October 21, 2003 Rigging is not rocket science. I'm very uncurrent on Racers and have no trouble at all with them. They're just a silly design. I think the pop top and reserve deployment speed arguement, is a poor one. Pull the ripcord on any rig, the reserve pilot chute flies off the back. It doesn't matter if it's exposed or not. Some springs launch slightly better than others. Some packing methods will slightly hinder the launch on some rigs. None the less, pull the pin and the PC is outa there.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
