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Costyn

Trackingderby.com wingsuit section

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I've been playing around with my GPS and Trackingderby.com. You can specify wingsuit when uploading GPS data now.

The convention for wingsuits is that recording starts at 15 seconds and continues for 105 seconds after that. The score is based on the distance traveled in those 105 seconds, the same as tracking.

However, tracking only counts during 45 seconds. I've been emailng back and forth with Claude (of trackingderby.com) for a while. In my humble opinion, 105 seconds is too much, because this means you always need to get 120+ seconds of freefall. In order to make it more accessible to people I suggest recording 90 seconds instead of 105. This will make it more accessible and level the playing field a bit.

For tracking, you need to make only 60 seconds of freefall. This is not very difficult, even from 12,000 ft. For wingsuiting however, making 120 seconds from 12,000 is a lot more difficult (or so I find), and is perhaps even dangerous when people will just keep going for a few seconds more to ensure that they've made the 120 seconds (which I found myself doing last weekend).

So, what do you guys think? 105 or 90 seconds?

Cheers,

Costyn.
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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This tracking derby isnt really fair in my opinion, if one wants to break the record just jump in a very strong tailwind and it will give you extra miles for sure!

Jumping in head or tail wind has a lot to say since the distance is measured realtive to the ground and not the actuall distance flown relative to the wind..

I did 2,5 km in a standup track, with strong tailwind..

Peace

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This tracking derby isnt really fair in my opinion, if one wants to break the record just jump in a very strong tailwind and it will give you extra miles for sure!

Jumping in head or tail wind has a lot to say since the distance is measured realtive to the ground and not the actuall distance flown relative to the wind..



Yeah, you are absolutely right about this. Unfortunately there is not much you can do about this (is there?). I guess everybody has to use the winds at their disposal to their maximum benefit? In other words, he who dares jump in the highest winds, wins. B|:S
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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I think I understand what your saying here and a simple way around this is what I thought Claude had implimented based on feedback he received from myself and Loic when this was in its infancy. Incidentally, this is also something I have taken into account with regards to seeking FAI recognition of Wingsuit competition. The easy fix for what you have described is to have a a "start" and "finsh" altitude(distance between the two ie: X amount of feet/M which is considered judgeable) and a minimum altitude hard deck. So differences in exit altitude would not sway the favor in one direction or another. As long as one had suffcient altitude to meet "X" feet/m of altitude and didn't exceed the hard deck it would keep everyone on a level playing field.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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The easy fix for what you have described is to have a a "start" and "finsh" altitude(distance between the two ie: X amount of feet/M which is considered judgeable) and a minimum altitude hard deck. So differences in exit altitude would not sway the favor in one direction or another. As long as one had suffcient altitude to meet "X" feet/m of altitude and didn't exceed the hard deck it would keep everyone on a level playing field.



That sounds like a great idea. So for example recording distance in an interval of 6000 feet, 1000 feet after exit? This is how it is done in speedskydiving as well, I believe? And I like the idea of having a hard deck by which one has to be deployed. Deploying after this would mean the jump was disqualified from being used in the rankings. Are there any downsides to using an altitude range instead of a time range?
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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Yo!

First, what is a problem with 105 or 120 seconds? I can see how 180 could be a bit of a challenge for some bigger-boned people... but 90? Come on, you can track without a suit longer than that.

Second, like Basjkall pointed out, this tracking derby is quite pointless. The winner is determined by the tailwind speed. If you want to compete out of a plane, it must be done on the same load.

bsbd!

Yuri.

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Having a race between two altitudes gives a lot of importance to the side of you suit and don't really deal in a better way with the wind. The GPS can not permit a stable judgment with altitude "too unprecise". Tracking against the time allows every body shape to be a potential winner. The Tracking Derby software have a safety altitude thresold, so it is not usefull to go low. The main question is on the timing out of a regular 13 500 ft. Two minutes is that hard for every one?

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The main question is on the timing out of a regular 13 500 ft. Two minutes is that hard for every one?



No, being at a DZ that doesn't often go to 13,500ft is though.

Sucks to be me huh?

.
Lee _______________________________

In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy?
http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk

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Tracking against the time allows every body shape to be a potential winner.



I do not understand this logic at all. In a fixed amount of time, a heavy person will always be able to cover more ground than a light person (assuming each can track the same glideslope).
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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First, what is a problem with 105 or 120 seconds? I can see how 180 could be a bit of a challenge for some bigger-boned people... but 90? Come on, you can track without a suit longer than that.



We're not all wingsuit gods like you, Yuri. ;) Yes, 120 seconds is not really *that* difficult, but it did take me 50 jumps before I was able to fly those times.

What my point really is, is that the level of difficulty between the tracking section and the wingsuit section is out of proportion: 60 seconds total freefall for tracking compared to 120 seconds total freefall for wingsuiting. 60 seconds tracking freefall can be done on your first tracking jump. You won't be doing 120 second freefall times in a wingsuit on your first jump (well maybe you were, Yuri. :P).

And so you're saying there are really people who can do a 105 second freefall from 12,000 feet doing just tracking?
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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Tracking against the time allows anyone to win.



That is simply wrong. Bricks fall faster than feathers.

Wingsuits are, at heart, gliders. With many control surfaces, but still gliders. A heavy glider will glide faster than a light glider. A glider full of bricks will move faster than a glider full of feathers. Both can glide the same distance, but if you design the race around "most distance covered in x seconds", the glider full of bricks will always win. This is very basic aerodynamic fact.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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That is simply wrong. Bricks fall faster than feathers.

Wingsuits are, at heart, gliders. With many control surfaces, but still gliders. A heavy glider will glide faster than a light glider. A glider full of bricks will move faster than a glider full of feathers. Both can glide the same distance, but if you design the race around "most distance covered in x seconds", the glider full of bricks will always win. This is very basic aerodynamic fact.



Matt, are you trying to say that a 200lb wingsuiter will cover more horizontal distance than a 140lb wingsuiter in the same time?

If you are, I think your argument is flawed.

.

Edited to add, my brain hurts.

.
Lee _______________________________

In a world full of people, only some want to fly, is that not crazy?
http://www.ukskydiver.co.uk

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Matt, are you trying to say that a 200lb wingsuiter will cover more horizontal distance than a 140lb wingsuiter in the same time?



Yes, the heavier flyer will move faster downward AND foward. A faster forward speed means more ground covered in a given time.

Think about canopies (also gliders). A highly loaded canopy, in zero winds, full flight, has a higher forward speed AND descent rate than a lightly loaded canopy. High speed means more distance in a given time.
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Just for clarification here because I think there might be some confusion. If I understand your question correctly, you are saying that 120 is going to be harder to get for a guy who can only get a jump altitude of say 10k feet as opposed to a guy who can get 12,500 feet or more of altitude?
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Just for clarification here because I think there might be some confusion. If I understand your question correctly, you are saying that 120 is going to be harder to get for a guy who can only get a jump altitude of say 10k feet as opposed to a guy who can get 12,500 feet or more of altitude?



Yes, that is indeed what I mean. An altitude range like you suggested would help that, I think. Additionally, 45 seconds for tracking is not hard. 105 seconds for wingsuiting is comparitively a lot harder (for me and most wingsuiters I know).

And I agree with Matt. A highly loaded canopy will fly faster with the same glide angle as the same canopy which is lightly loaded. Of course wingsuits are different from canopies, but I would think in terms of both being gliders this would be the same.

Cheers.
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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We want a timing that allows differents angles of flight for diferent body shape from the average altitude of jumping. 15 + 90 second was the first choice, then we decide to have it more challenging frol 13,5 K. It is easy to switch. Let's see what people say. Thank's to all.



I don't understand why 90 seconds would be less challenging from 13,5K. If what counts is the distance you travel in 90 seconds, it does not matter if you are jumping from 13,5K or 12K. It will just mean that if you jump from 13,5K, you will be done with your 90 seconds a little higher than those people jumping from 12K. Or am I missing something?
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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There is the time and altitude ratio, 90s from 13,5K compared to 90s from 12K will permit way more flight angles diferences. Check the suit race from one event and compare the body shape of flyers getting closed to the same ground speed. We want to keep that flexibility and accessibility to evey wing suit size, body shape and weight.
Sounds like like 90s is not bad :)

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There is the time and altitude ratio, 90s from 13,5K compared to 90s from 12K will permit way more flight angles diferences. Check the suit race from one event and compare the body shape of flyers getting closed to the same ground speed. We want to keep that flexibility and accessibility to evey wing suit size, body shape and weight.
Sounds like like 90s is not bad :)



Ah! I'm finally beginning to see the light! :$:o

So: if you have 2 people, one exiting at 13,5 the other at 12 and both open at 3500 and both have 90 seconds of freefall, the one exiting at 13,5 will have had a steeper angle of flight and thus probably more forward speed. This is what you mean by angles right?

And the problem with using an altitude range is that the GPS altimeter is not accurate enough?

Hmm... well it's a complicated issue allright. :)
Thanks for your input, Claude.

Cheers.
Costyn van Dongen - http://www.flylikebrick.com/ - World Wide Wingsuit News

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The main question is on the timing out of a regular 13 500 ft. Two minutes is that hard for every one?



Claude, the hard part is that most people cannot get 13,500 ft. of altitude from their DZs. In the USA, the average height is 12,5K. At smaller DZs or those at higher altitudes, the jump altitudes may be even lower. The only way this would be possible is if you arranged for the A/C to drop from 13,5K durining the event.

In fact, the only way you can keep the wingsuit field even remotely balanced is to use only scores obtained during one of your events where you know the A/C altitude, which way the wind is from and where you can download the GPS data immediately following the event. Otherwise, as mentioned, people will just jump with a high tailwind to skew the results/data in their favor.

The event can be judged from 15 seconds after exiting the A/C or at "X" altitude(based on the math of how far a person can fall in 15 secsonds) The time and altitude data from the GPS can be used quite acurrately to calculate the start point and the end point in post processing.Having a hard deck is not only a good idea for judging purposes but promotes safety as well. Feel free to e-mail me if you want to get into more details on this again.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Flying the distance will always be better with a tail wind. From most of the flyer feed back, they are more DZ spoting at 13,5 than lower, but that is the purpose of those posts. On an event it is easy to coordonate. But we want to expand event scores to a global race by adding the best scores by day to a 10 or 20 total scores addition per year. For sure with wind is the best, that's why we will add only 2 scores per day. We might swing to a 15s 90S timing, if this is needed. Let's see how it goes

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