"WHAT IF"

[LouDiamond 1]

This topic was brought up in another thread in the forum and a thread was created on flybirdman that addressed it. I have addressed it on flybirdman and felt it needed to be addressed here as it concerns safety.

kevin922 wrote :

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(SNIP)lets say you get out of the aircraft to fly your pattern only to see the pilot is flying a pattern which could equal a collision course for you -- i.e. the same left hand pattern. What do you do? Some would say fly to the right away from the plane, but that idea has rcvd a lot of negative remarks because of the other aircraft traffic that is directly behind you.

The very fact that the A/C is flying a left hand pattern as is the birman isn't the issue. The issue of being struck can occur at any time once you exit the A/C if the pilot isn't aware of the birdmans flight plan be it a left or right hand pattern. The issue and reason for communicating with the pilot is to ensure that he/she knows to fly a wider descent pattern or to at least not cut their descent pattern short and actualy fly into the birdman as he/she flys their pattern, as was the case in Perris. The chance of a Birdman running into an A/C while in flight is probably astronomical. However, the chance of an A/C running into a Birdman is a possibility, it happened.

A/C have the ability to rapidly ascend or descend and can be well beneath a birdman and on final before a birdman has even turned back on his final leg of the flight plan. Again, the risk is in the A/C pilot flying a similar tight pattern to the Birdman and crashing into him. If the thought of flying in the same direction as the A/C is descending is an issue then go the opposite way if it is safe and practical. The only time turning off of the predetermined flight plan is an issue is at large boogies where there are parallel jump runs and multiple A/C in trail of the A/C on jump run. On most DZs this is not an issue as there is only one jump run and only one A/C in the sky dropping jumpers.

For the sake of "what if" lets say a birdman exits the A/C and the A/C turns almost 180 around and parallels the jump run without descending in altitude and you can see the A/C coming at you be it straight on or at an oblique. For the birdman to avoid that A/C he/she will have to either change their trajectory or rapidly lose altitude so the plane travels above them. In effect, they will have to "dodge' the A/C as it passes by at 120+ knts. The act of dodging the A/C will not cause the Birdman to completely alter their original flight plan nor will a birdman be able to exit an A/C and immediately know that a collision is imminent. The reality of the matter is that in all likely hood a birdman will not see the A/C as it will be above and descend down on top of him.

A/C have two options for descent after a jump run. They can immediately dive down(as seen in some photos with skydivers in the foreground) which is faster than a birdman or skydiver can hope to fall. Or, they can continue on jump run heading and start a gradual descent as they turn back towards the landing strip, usually in a wide sweeping arc. Again the A/C can descend faster than a birdman can hope to descend.

The chance where a birdman is really in danger of an A/C strike while in flight is in the following scenario: For whatever reason, a dropzone has decided that Birdmen will get out before tandems and or students. The Birdman gets out and the tandem master/Instructor calls for a go around because they are long. The A/C pilot turns 180 and flys the jump run back towards the DZ. For normal skydivers this is not an issue but for the Birdman who maintains altitude longer it is. The possability of an A/C strike increase as do the possibilities of a tandem/Student falling through the Birdman in flight. Which is why it is imperative that Birdmen exit last.

The most important point here is that by telling the pilot your flight plan he knows what "other' objects are in his airspace besides what ATC is telling him
in his headset. This is just good business for the average weekend DZ jumping. At large boogies it is critical that you fly the designated flight plan or ask about predetermined flight plans if one isn't mentioned to you when you manifest. Letting manifest know you're a wingsuit is also a must as they can annotate it on the load sheet and this helps remind the pilot as talking to the pilot at large boogies is frowned on.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[greybeard 0]

What if, your ws exit from an extended jump run, leaves you in the path of the trailing jump plane's bank and decent, whose run has not been extended by ws exits?

What if ground briefs were mandatory as they are with high altitude jumps.

[LouDiamond 1]

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What if, your ws exit from an extended jump run, leaves you in the path of the trailing jump plane's bank and decent, whose run has not been extended by ws exits?

This question, i assume, is related to the original post and I am assuming you are refering to Eloy. Jump runs were not "extended" for WS jumps. For loads designated as having WS on them at the boogie, pilots would fly the outer most jump run so that ws pilots would not cross the parallel jump run while in flight back to the landing area. As for the trail A/C without a WS on it. All the A/C at the boogie followed a set descent pattern. It would be insane to have as many 5 + A/C in the sky at one time flying their own descent patterns. Think of it in terms of a 3 dimensional race track from runway to altitude, descent and landing. The place where this can and did become an issue once was where a small group of WS stayed on the A/C way longer than the jump run was designated and almost upset the balance of things.

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What if ground briefs were mandatory as they are with high altitude jumps

Ground briefs WERE mandatory in Eloy and WS pilots were briefed on how the boogie was operating and what Birdmen had to do. Once they were briefed they had their wrist bands annotated. Part of that breifing was to check flight patterns daily at the Birdman tent and at the loading area dry erase boards prior to getting on a load. A aerial photo with the designated Birdman area was also available to Birdmen the entire boogie. On top of that , announcements were made over the PA system througout the day.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kevin922 0]

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What if ground briefs were mandatory as they are with high altitude jumps

Ground briefs WERE mandatory in Eloy and WS pilots were briefed on how the boogie was operating and what Birdmen had to do. Once they were briefed they had their wrist bands annotated. Part of that breifing was to check flight patterns daily at the Birdman tent and at the loading area dry erase boards prior to getting on a load. A aerial photo with the designated Birdman area was also available to Birdmen the entire boogie. On top of that , announcements were made over the PA system througout the day.

Just a quick note here, even though an effort to make the briefing mandatory was made it definately had holes in it. My first 3 jumps at eloy I was not asked about a wingsuit briefing or anything - in fact I didn't even manifest myself, another wingsuit jumper did.

I believe this statement is true for every wingsuit load I was on where I didn't manifest the entire group. I was asked once, maybe twice, to see my arm band when manifesting out of the 12 jumps I made.

[LouDiamond 1]

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even though an effort to make the briefing mandatory was made it definately had holes in it. .

I agree and we quickly found that out, which is why both myself and the S&TA increased the announcements over the PA on a daily basis.

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My first 3 jumps at eloy I was not asked about a wingsuit briefing or anything - in fact I didn't even manifest myself, another wingsuit jumper did

Not taking responsibility for yourself or claiming "no one told me" is not an excuse. As an experienced WS pilot you should know that a flight pattern exists. If your buddy who manifested you failed to ask then you're both in the wrong. You spent enough time around the Birdman tent that you had to of seen the dry erase board or at least heard the FFC students receiving the Flight plan brief and map of the designated birdman area.

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I was asked once, maybe twice, to see my arm band when manifesting out of the 12 jumps I made.

Unfortunately, the volume of jumpers at the boogie made it almost impossible for the manifestors to ask each and every person who manifested or manifested for groups of people if they were WS or check their bands. A different approach to this problem will be addressed in the future to prevent such incidents.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[bbarnhouse 0]

There was also a post outside of manifest stating that all wingsuit flyers MUST check into the Birdman tent daily for a briefing.
BB

[kevin922 0]

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even though an effort to make the briefing mandatory was made it definately had holes in it. .

I agree and we quickly found that out, which is why both myself and the S&TA increased the announcements over the PA on a daily basis.


Announcements aren't really enforcement, they are suggestions.

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***My first 3 jumps at eloy I was not asked about a wingsuit briefing or anything - in fact I didn't even manifest myself, another wingsuit jumper did

Not taking responsibility for yourself or claiming "no one told me" is not an excuse. As an experienced WS pilot you should know that a flight pattern exists. If your buddy who manifested you failed to ask then you're both in the wrong. You spent enough time around the Birdman tent that you had to of seen the dry erase board or at least heard the FFC students receiving the Flight plan brief and map of the designated birdman area.




I may be wrong but this sounds as if you are jumping to a conclusion. I didn't say I didn't have the briefing - in fact it was one of the first things I did after I got to eloy and made the decision to jump, I said no one asked me - and i don't think in the briefing you stated that other wingsuit jumpers were responsible for verifying that members in their group had had the briefing - saying it's irresponsible for another jumper to police me when that was never brought up a little assuming.

Responsible or not, you are saying that a process was in place that was mandatory and i'm telling you this is not the case. Mandetory to me means if you don't do it then you don't jump, it was mandetory to give manifest a jump ticket in order to get on a load. Any joe smoe who was registered for the boogie with an "approved rig" could hop on a wingsuit flocking dive with no questions asked. At least from what I saw.

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[bbarnhouse 0]

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Any joe smoe who was registered for the boogie with an "approved rig" could hop on a wingsuit flocking dive with no questions asked. At least from what I saw.

You weren't at manifest the entire day, so I would certainly have to say that that isn't a true statement, although you are certainly entitled to your own opinion. Nor were you here but for a few days during the 12 day long boogie. I am not saying that perhaps as a group we couldn't do better, there is always room for improvement.
What needs to be realized is that this was NOT WFFC, and indeed was one of the largest boogies. We have had several discussions here at SDA as how to improve wingsuit flying here. Primarily by treating wingsuits as we do CRW.
As wingsuit flying is still in its infancy as discipline, it is clear that we all need to work together in order to provide a safer environment for everyone.

[kevin922 0]

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Any joe smoe who was registered for the boogie with an "approved rig" could hop on a wingsuit flocking dive with no questions asked. At least from what I saw.

You weren't at manifest the entire day, so I would certainly have to say that that isn't a true statement, although you are certainly entitled to your own opinion.


Well I was jumping till the 30th, so I don't know what happened after I left but from the 25th to the 30th this is exactly what i saw. If you were part of a "group" the person manifesting would often times be asked to see their band, but questions about the other members of the group were not raised.

***
As wingsuit flying is still in its infancy as discipline, it is clear that we all need to work together in order to provide a safer environment for everyone.

This is exactly why I posted this so that you guys could know about things that a person who was not involved with the organization of the boogie saw from an organization standpoint for the purpose of improvement.

[bbarnhouse 0]

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This is exactly why I posted this so that you guys could know about things that a person who was not involved with the organization of the boogie saw from an organization standpoint for the purpose of improvement.

I suppose that had I viewed things through your eyes...I would have had a discussion with "the organization".

[kevin922 0]

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This is exactly why I posted this so that you guys could know about things that a person who was not involved with the organization of the boogie saw from an organization standpoint for the purpose of improvement.

I suppose that had I viewed things through your eyes...I would have had a discussion with "the organization".

Well I guess hindsight is 20/20 and i wasn't there to start "bitching" about how things were run as some would have probably taken it as that.

[greybeard 0]

Lou,

The question was just a 'what if' and not specifically apros of anything. Good answer, thanks.

Another question, regarding staying in the plane too long. How did that affect patterns?

[LouDiamond 1]

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Announcements aren't really enforcement, they are suggestions.

That sounds so absurd I don't know if your joking or just that naive. When the S&TA of a DZ comes on over the PA, or any member of manifest for that matter and makes an announcement concerning safety, it isn't a suggestion. "If you are unable to follow the landing pattern establilshed please feel free to land at the alternate landing area or off" isn't a suggestion, it is a polite way of telling people to pull their heads out of their asses and follow the rules. If I really have to explain this any further there are deeper issues involved than what we are talking about.

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Responsible or not, you are saying that a process was in place that was mandatory and i'm telling you this is not the case. Mandetory to me means if you don't do it then you don't jump, it was mandetory to give manifest a jump ticket in order to get on a load.

Whether you care to acknowledge the fact that there was a process in place or not is your choice. However, the DZ had an established process that preceeded the boogie with notification on their website to include here on DZ.com, over the PA every day, on the dry erase boards at the Birdman tent and the loading area and at the Manifest window. At WFFC it was much easier since people manifesting for A/C were already kitted up and it was easy for a manifestor to see if someone was WS or not. IF it were up to me I would impliment a die hard way to ensure that everyone knew about the flight plan but I think most people would object to my methods. However, I am not in that position. I do take concern over overall safety and the right to fly WS at boogies. I will not let someone who has a disregard for their safety or anyone elses jepordize my privilage to jump a WS. I'm not here to argue. I am here to make it clear to everyone concerned that for all intensive purposes WS flights nearly came to a screeching halt at the boogie because of the actions of a few individuals. Apparently some people walk through life oblivious to their surroundings and personal safety regardless of how many announcements or signs are posted in their environment..No method of insuring people are briefed or that they will do the right thing is fool proof. Once you say it is a smarter fool will come along. There is no way anyone can justify or claim that they were not in some way aware of the WS requirements if they were at the boogie for even a short period of time. My point , as I stated in the other thread, is that if we don't police ourselves or those who are either ignorant of the basic rules or simply disregard them, the privilage of jumping WS at large boogies may not exist in the future. Does anyone really want to be known as the one who got WS flights banned at a particular boogie or banned period? I don't think so. So follow the boogie rules and if for some reason the rules aren't made apparent to you or they aren't clear, then you should have enough foresight to at least ask for your own safety.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Deuce 1]

Me, Tallguy, and Aviatrr had a serious face-to-face with Brian Burke that left no doubt whatsoever as to his expectations of us, or of our interaction with aircraft, jumpers, jumprun, where we were expected to deploy, and at what altitude.

I ended up scratching from that load because of a time issue, but the one four-way flock I had was safe, challenging, and fun.

[LouDiamond 1]

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Another question, regarding staying in the plane too long. How did that affect patterns?

In short, it's about timing.
When an A/C is on jump run they will announce it over the radio on the Freq designated for that Airfield/port which is also annotated on Aircharts to alert traveling pilots or A/C in the area that parachutists are being dropped. In the case of the boogie the lead A/C will call when they are on jump run and when they are no longer on jump run so that there isn't a sky full of people falling on top of one another.Since most boogies establish a jump run with a trail A/C 2 mins behind the lead A/C, taking longer on jump run causes the flow to be disrupted as does A/C who don't adhere to the 2 min jump run by either taking longer or arriving faster than scheduled. If the lead takes longer on jump run the trail A/C has to either shorten it's jump run, meaning people may not make it out or a second pass must be made or the trail has to divert/loiter in a manner that allows him to come back on jump run once the lead is clear. When you have multiple A/C in the sky in close proximity to one another, loitering is not as easy as it sounds and a second pass is not cost efficient as more fuel is used. Again, think of it as a 3 dimensinal race track where A/C must keep a set pattern or interval between one another to be safe and cost effective.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[kevin922 0]

Okay I give up, obviously every well intentioned comment I make on this forum is picked apart.

I didn't say anything here to argue with you scott what I said was to bring attention to the fact that the process which you, betsy or whoever came up with had room for improvement. It wasn't criticizing anything anyone had done as being bad, the briefing was well done.

I personally am one who wants to see wingsuits grow, I have devoted countless hours to helping educate people, i've spent time and money to put together a website, and I am a responsible pilot. I was envisioning the wingsuit flyer who ISN'T this and the fact that they COULD have the opportunity to screw things up for the rest of us. The fact there did exist a way for a wingsuit jumper to get on a load without going through a briefing. I was being somewhat sarcastic with my "announcements aren't enforcement" comment but an announcement doesn't force a person to do something - it gives them information that they can either abide by or not. Not giving manifest a jump ticket I believe does force someone to not get on a load, or get a lot of bad looks when they figure everything out.

I am a "what if" thinker, that's how I am. I'm constantly thinking up scenarios of "what would you do here" and asking others for input. This was another what if but I was simply giving the input to those who could use it.

I have nothing more to say.

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Announcements aren't really enforcement, they are suggestions.

That sounds so absurd I don't know if your joking or just that naive. When the S&TA of a DZ comes on over the PA, or any member of manifest for that matter and makes an announcement concerning safety, it isn't a suggestion. "If you are unable to follow the landing pattern establilshed please feel free to land at the alternate landing area or off" isn't a suggestion, it is a polite way of telling people to pull their heads out of their asses and follow the rules. If I really have to explain this any further there are deeper issues involved than what we are talking about.

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Responsible or not, you are saying that a process was in place that was mandatory and i'm telling you this is not the case. Mandetory to me means if you don't do it then you don't jump, it was mandetory to give manifest a jump ticket in order to get on a load.

Whether you care to acknowledge the fact that there was a process in place or not is your choice. However, the DZ had an established process that preceeded the boogie with notification on their website to include here on DZ.com, over the PA every day, on the dry erase boards at the Birdman tent and the loading area and at the Manifest window. At WFFC it was much easier since people manifesting for A/C were already kitted up and it was easy for a manifestor to see if someone was WS or not. IF it were up to me I would impliment a die hard way to ensure that everyone knew about the flight plan but I think most people would object to my methods. However, I am not in that position. I do take concern over overall safety and the right to fly WS at boogies. I will not let someone who has a disregard for their safety or anyone elses jepordize my privilage to jump a WS. I'm not here to argue. I am here to make it clear to everyone concerned that for all intensive purposes WS flights nearly came to a screeching halt at the boogie because of the actions of a few individuals. Apparently some people walk through life oblivious to their surroundings and personal safety regardless of how many announcements or signs are posted in their environment..No method of insuring people are briefed or that they will do the right thing is fool proof. Once you say it is a smarter fool will come along. There is no way anyone can justify or claim that they were not in some way aware of the WS requirements if they were at the boogie for even a short period of time. My point , as I stated in the other thread, is that if we don't police ourselves or those who are either ignorant of the basic rules or simply disregard them, the privilage of jumping WS at large boogies may not exist in the future. Does anyone really want to be known as the one who got WS flights banned at a particular boogie or banned period? I don't think so. So follow the boogie rules and if for some reason the rules aren't made apparent to you or they aren't clear, then you should have enough foresight to at least ask for your own safety.

[greybeard 0]

Interesting. So if the lead a/c extends his/her run due to say a cross country or a ws, the trail has to adjust his/her timing for approach to the jump run? How does the trail time this approach? Never mind, I just remembered, the planes fly a designated and planned ground speed, so the calculation is common, right?

Damn, how in the hell do they coordinate all that, with respect to cross traffic and no controller.

[LouDiamond 1]

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what I said was to bring attention to the fact that the process which you, betsy or whoever came up with had room for improvement.

If you scroll back up you will see that I agree with you that there was a problem. It was identified during the boogie and measures were taken to try and curtail it. Unfortunately it wasn't effective enough. But then again there is the old saying" There is always one". For the most part what was implimented was effective, 99% effective which still leaves room for error and an accident and or death which is unacceptable.

Pointing out the obvious problem is only productive if you also have a possible solution to the problem. Otherwise, like you said it is "bitching". A problem was identified and a solution was implimented, it is evident that a more strigent solution is needed to rope that 1% in. At this juncture it is apparent that part of the overall solution is education of the WS masses otherwise DZs will simply not allow WS at boogies and we can't allow that to happen.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[LouDiamond 1]

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So if the lead a/c extends his/her run due to say a cross country or a ws, the trail has to adjust his/her timing for approach to the jump run?

Yes and as you can see it gets very complicated which is why the cross country loads were scheduled late in the day near the last load.

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How does the trail time this approach? Never mind, I just remembered, the planes fly a designated and planned ground speed, so the calculation is common, right?

It's not quite that simple as different A/C have different rates of ascent, IE: the King air compared to the otter or skyvan. The fast A/C can in a sense "cut" in line(pass) while other A/C are still climbing to altitude but again, this gets complicated with the more A/C you have in the sky at any one time.

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Damn, how in the hell do they coordinate all that, with respect to cross traffic and no controller.

It's a delicate and some times ugly ballet and requires lots of communication amongst the pilots and the person on the ground who monitors where chutes are in the sky realitive to A/C dropping people. So you can see how when something causes this balance to go amok it causes much grief for those in the air and on the ground. NOTAMS(Notice to Airmen) are required to be filed stating that parachuting will be going on so that cross traffic or A/C passing through know that activity is going on. But, as we saw at the boogie, not every pilot monitors the required freqs or pays heed to the NOTAMS.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[VectorBoy 0]

In this case seeing the plane shouldn't be so alarming. I have flown similar patterns with jump aircraft many times. Sometimes the pilots are fascinated by the birdman facet of the sport and want to watch for a while after you exit.

At rantoul a six man flock we were in was heading straight for the arizona skyvan but I personally felt in no great peril as we saw them first. Once our leader changed heading everything was wonderful.

The danger is when you and the aircraft don't see each other, as in the Perris strike. Descending aircraft , wingsuit looking around but not forward and "up". I don't typically look "up" as this would arch me and spoil an otherwise proper flying body position.
We as jumpers loose sight of the fact that the airspace we jump in is not PROTECTED. It is not a control zone victor airway or a military restricted airspace. All of the S.O.P.s we come up with are to protect freefallers from each other small groups to large, slow fallers to fast. and with the use of wingsuits now, its bird-man from the planes they just left and the one in trail on the other jump run. Thats it.
WE never know about or have forgotten that the airspace we use is free for anybody with a medical certificate and enough money for fuel for an ultralight to a military transport jet to do just about anything they want in. Dropzones post a NOTAM which is just a notice that there will be parachute activity in the area. Unless your are in Seal team six jumping at groom lake you have no guarantee, nobody else has to grant jump run or wing suiters the right of way. Its just an advisory. Remember the Bomber footage from the two freeflyers a while ago?

How many times have you been on the DZ and witness a low flying small craft cross the DZ? I've seen it plenty. And guess what its perfectly legal. I wouldn't do it but it happens.

Most DZ share space with other general aviation or sport aviation activities. It could get crowded with ultralights, gliders, balloons, fire bombers, acro-batics and agro-sprayers. Now jumpers and the rest have got along ( well almost ) for while now and almost know what to expect. I say almost with a smile.

Now enter the wingsuit.....TA DA! Think of how many jumpers or jump pilots have never seen one. Ever or know what they can do. Or know what to do around one other than say oohhh, ahhhh, cool.

Now take that same train of though outside the jumper community to the sport aviation and rural commercial aviation world who expect to see jumpers only directly over the grass landing (if they even care) area and not two miles out at 10,000 feet traveling at 100 MPH back to the DZ.

If you find yourself doing some jump plane R-dub don't panic, you see you avoid. It will be a skill of great value to you in the case of pleasure flocking and an emergency situation. The pilot knows you are out there. In time things will get better, more refined. In the mean time keep your head on a swivel for all of the other traffic out there that doesn't know you from a UFO and will panic!